victoria cross

victoria cross

Postby kesey » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:23 am

republicofcork wrote:Like it or not the two Victoria cross buildings that so many people hate have much more in common with the Civic Trust House in terms of design than almost any recent building in the city. They have a clay applied facade and flush windows and a severe minimalism based on careful proportioning of elements. All also use the best of known technowlogy of their time. U may hate them but these buildings are intellectually very similar to that tradition which is admired throughout the world as IrisGeorgian architecture and design. We do need to look at what architecturally makes up our city and we need to educate ourselves about it and respect it. Like it or not the two Victoria cross buildings that so many people hate have much more in common with the Civic Trust House in terms of design than almost any recent building in the city. They have a clay applied facade and flush windows and a severe minimalism based on careful proportioning of elements. All also use the best of known technowlogy of their time. U may hate them but these buildings are intellectually very similar to that tradition which is admired throughout the world as IrisGeorgian architecture and design. A quiet version of these buildings on Lavits Quay designeed by this Architect would be very welcome. Perhaps we could argue about the scale or location of the Victoria Cross buildings but given teir incredibly minimal detailing and proportions they are some of the best and most contextual buildings in the city. Their quiet simple form is Irish and it is humble and without overt devices or decoration. In all nature form does follow function. These buildings and the Civic Trust House are beautiful. Like it or not the two Victoria cross buildings that so many people hate have much more in common with the Civic Trust House in terms of design than almost any recent building in the city. They have a clay applied facade and flush windows and a severe minimalism based on careful proportioning of elements. All also use the best of known technowlogy of their time. U may hate them but these buildings are intellectually very similar to that tradition which is admired throughout the world as IrisGeorgian architecture and design.


You are absolutely right republicofcork. We should build simple card-board coloured blocks, beautifully devoid of ornamentation and of all things unIrish. The Book of Kells, the Ardagh Chalice and any item or edifice not built or designed to mollify the senses should be summarily destroyed lest our Celtic heritage be further offended.

The Black and Tans did us all a favour by burning down Patrick Street. And what did our god-forsaken ancestors do? They built bastardisations like Roches Stores and Brown Thomas. May they rot and be consumed and excreted by putrid earthworms 50 times a day for such effrrontery. Bravo the brave cohorts who restored Irish pride by building such magnificent effusions of Irish talent as displayed at Victoria Cross. Fair fenians all.

A pint of plain is your only man. Blissful hippocrene me erse.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Pug » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:35 am

kite wrote:Celebrated and Controversial Architect Will Alsop to Speak in Cork
“Creating buildings and spaces that continue to give pleasure in the future is one of our responsibilities [as architects



2 words to say to that - Victoria Cross
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kesey » Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:57 pm

kite wrote::o I agree that the Opera house is an improvement on what was there before, so would a lump of dog pooh!!

Is there any other country in Europe that would allow the Opera House or the apartments on Camden Quay (as per your photo) to be built within a mile of the Crawford Gallery?


I must protest kite. When you are talking about dog shite, then why euphemise the term, unless perhaps you were indicating that it would be disrespectful to the canine whose droppings ameliorated the architectural vista of the Opera House as was? The pre-renovated Opera House was dog shite. The codswollop at Victoria Cross on the other hand is elephant shite, perhaps more accurately dino-shite.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:27 pm

kesey wrote:I must protest kite. When you are talking about dog shite, then why euphemise the term, unless perhaps you were indicating that it would be disrespectful to the canine whose droppings ameliorated the architectural vista of the Opera House as was? The pre-renovated Opera House was dog shite. The codswollop at Victoria Cross on the other hand is elephant shite, perhaps more accurately dino-shite.


I did not know that Cork had a faculty of scatology!
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:56 pm

kesey wrote:I must protest kite. When you are talking about dog shite, then why euphemise the term, unless perhaps you were indicating that it would be disrespectful to the canine whose droppings ameliorated the architectural vista of the Opera House as was? The pre-renovated Opera House was dog shite. The codswollop at Victoria Cross on the other hand is elephant shite, perhaps more accurately dino-shite.


Kesey, no argument from me on the Victoria Mills….CCC really gave groups such as CSD a stick to beat them with for years to come by giving planning on that pile of CRAP.:o

Micko
:rolleyes: I think Joe O’Donovan has enough on his plate at the moment with the Roches Stores Wilton debacle to worry about any Grand Parade / Patrick Street development after Howard Holdings jumped ship and left him take the flack for the loss of 172 jobs.
If the identity of his backers becomes public knowledge the shite will really hit the fan!!
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:18 pm

BallinloughLass wrote:Agree with you completely jungle.

Ballinlough is the one area of Cork which is well supplied by schools such as St Anthony's, Regina Mundi, Eglantine, OLOL, etc. Would it not cross the minds of the city planners that it might be a good idea to build family homes rather than empty blocks of apartments in these areas?

Why not build apartment blocks in areas where people can walk to work and build family homes in areas where children can walk to school.

Is it perhaps that developers view such suburban apartment developments as more profitable with less risk rather than the proper development of brownfield sits such as the docklands? If a historic building gets knocked in the process, who cares if developers are still making money? If school children get knocked down by a juggernaut while walking to school, what were these children walking to school in the first place? Surely, the developer is better off if these childtren are living in a housing estate out in the blue yonder enjoying a 45 minute commute to school during rush hour in a 4WD!

No wonder the people of Cork are angry!


:o In fairness everybody could come up with some excuse not to build apartments in their back yard, the kids, the trees, the roads, the views, ”Historic” Houses, endangered snails, etc etc, hence the term NIMBY.
Developers are in the business of making money; they cannot be blamed for building apartments as land prices make one per acre houses prohibitive. Two acres of land holding 150 apartments @ 500,000 ea = 75,000,000, two acres of land holding 2 houses @ 2,000,000 ea = 4 million, what would you do if you were a developer?
If urban sprawl is to be tackled apartments of good quality (not Victoria Mills) need to be built ALL over the city and suburbs….that means in YOUR back yard as well.
Hopefully City Manager Joe Gavin will stick to his guns now that his neighborhood has planning for apartments
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:09 am

The Irish Examiners poll of the best and worst buildings in Cork

1.Mahon Point Shopping Centre (428 votes).

2. Glucksman Gallery, UCC (338 votes).

3. Bon Secours Care Village (296 votes).

4. City Quarter, Lapps Quay (160 votes).

5. Cork Institute of Technology, new college campus (132 votes)

6. Airport new terminal (131 votes).

7. Crawford Art Gallery, new extension (113 votes).

8. North Main Street Car Park (76 votes).

9. Cork County Hall (71 votes).

10. Victoria Mills apartments, Victoria Cross (51 votes)

Total vote: 1,846.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=17982-qqqx=1.asp
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:44 pm

Praxiteles wrote:A case of ménager le chevre avec les choux!


:p Herr Joe Gavin’s ambition for city domination must have received a serious setback (as did his performance related pay bonus, i.e. development levies & extracting the proposed 2 euro bin tag levy from the poorest of our city’s population, :eek: a bonus estimated at 40-50 grand PA) with the insistence from local Councillors that Lovett’s in Douglas be included in the record of protected structures, the kicking for touch for planning at Springville House, the withdrawal of the sale of J&P Honda site, Victoria Cross, and the Whylam restaurant, Victoria Cross staying in business as is.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:55 pm

:rolleyes: Along with City Manager, Joe Gavin’s Managers order to acquire 9 houses in Victoria Cross this week, he is also believed to have entered into contracts to purchase a major part of the Robin Power, ex Our Lady’s Hospital apartment complex (80-90 apartments bought)
:eek: Negotiations are said to be ongoing with developers in Douglas, Bishopstown, and Blackrock to purchase apartments / houses to reduce the social housing list of 5800 as social housing in the Northside Wards is prohibited under the Cork City Development Plan 04’-09. (move the problems !!)
:confused: So much for the demand we were told exists for apartments for the private sector??
:eek: Bail out time for developers courtesy of the taxpayer??
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby corkdood » Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:50 pm

kite wrote::rolleyes: Along with City Manager, Joe Gavin’s Managers order to acquire 9 houses in Victoria Cross this week, he is also believed to have entered into contracts to purchase a major part of the Robin Power, ex Our Lady’s Hospital apartment complex (80-90 apartments bought)
:eek: Negotiations are said to be ongoing with developers in Douglas, Bishopstown, and Blackrock to purchase apartments / houses to reduce the social housing list of 5800 as social housing in the Northside Wards is prohibited under the Cork City Development Plan 04’-09. (move the problems !!)
:confused: So much for the demand we were told exists for apartments for the private sector??
:eek: Bail out time for developers courtesy of the taxpayer??


We're going to see a lot of this I reckon in the next few months partially as a way of staving off the housing crash until after the general election.
If stamp duty remains more or less unchanged in next weeks budget its likely that in January (if not sooner) you will see a lot of property speculators attempting to offload their houses before the market crashes.

The all caring government and local authorities will then step in to buy up lots of these properties to use as affordable housing and to shorten the housing lists. Of course the motive behind this will be to get reelected next summer and to keep the rose tinted glasses on the electorate and to reassure them that everything is hunky dory.

Rising interest rates together with energy costs and reduced mortgage availability from banks will bring the property market to its knees. It will all play out in the next 6 months or so in my opinion.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:37 pm

Crows Nest Redevelopment:
Following receipt of their Inspectors report (before Christmas) on the redevelopment of the Crows Nest site on Carrigrohane Road / Victoria Cross Road the Board of ABP have yet again extended the due date for determination of the appeal to April 24th by requesting further information by way of Section 132 of the Planning Act.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:40 pm

A new company,Oakdon Ltd. with authorized capital of 1,000,000 euro formed on 9-10-06 this week entered into a Planning Bond & Agreement with CCC for housing development at the former Dennehy’s garage site, Dennehy’s Cross / Victoria Cross Road / Magazine Road. Directors of this company are Michael Conway Jnr, Kieran Conway, Michael Conway Snr (also of Frinailla Ltd), and company secretary Paudie Dennehy.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:03 am

kite wrote:A new company,Oakdon Ltd. with authorized capital of 1,000,000 euro formed on 9-10-06 this week entered into a Planning Bond & Agreement with CCC for housing development at the former Dennehy’s garage site, Dennehy’s Cross / Victoria Cross Road / Magazine Road. Directors of this company are Michael Conway Jnr, Kieran Conway, Michael Conway Snr (also of Frinailla Ltd), and company secretary Paudie Dennehy.



Is it safe to ask what this MIGHT mean?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:00 pm

Barry O’Connor and Robert Kennedy’s plans to redevelop the Crows Nest public house site have encountered a further delay following ABP’s request for additional information to be submitted before 24th April

ABP considered that the ten storey over ground floor element of the proposed development might, by reason of its height and scale and location in prominent and important views from the east, detract from and obstruct views of County Hall (a protected structure) and might, therefore, seriously injure the amenities of the area and be contrary to the objectives of the Cork City Development Plan 2004.
Furthermore, the Board considered that the development of this important corner site at a height of six storeys over ground floor level as permitted by the planning authority as modified by Condition 2(a) is acceptable but that it is not appropriate that such modification be carried out by condition as the resultant truncated building form might fail to provide a building of sufficient design quality as is necessary for the redevelopment of the site
ABP also feel that it is not necessary that a greater height of building than that permitted is required to provide a landmark building on this pivotal and important site in the redevelopment of this part of Cork city.
ABP considered that a modified proposal is required which results in a building of high quality and individual design and provides a landmark at this important site at Victoria Cross in the interest of the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.
In considering a redesign of the proposed development the Board also drew attention to the following concerns regarding the original proposal i.e the residential amenity of future residents of the proposed apartments due to the number of single aspect north facing units and to the residential amenity of existing adjoining residents and of future residents due to the proximity of the delivery and service yard.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby phatman » Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:01 pm

kite wrote::o Thats our "independent" planning appeals board for ya' ABP!!


Big/high is not always good. I completely agree with the height reduction, the site is not suited for a 10+ storey building, as it would indeed block views of County Hall, and given the latter's landmark/standalone nature it would look decidedly odd and out of place. I shudder to think about it, no exaggeration. County Hall may not be the most aesthetically pleasing building, but it certainly is imposing and iconic, and dominates the western skyline of the city, especially when silhouetted on a sunny summer's evening. A well designed six storey building could fit in nicely here, and maintain what is left of the 'village' aspect of Victoria Cross. Here's hoping...
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Micko » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:37 am

A sad day. Had a lot of good nights down there. Drove past there a few weeks ago and couldn't believe that the place was shut down.

I can't imagine the place doing bad business considering its location beside UCC. Surely this property would have been better held as a bar. A real pity considering the large beer garden they had out the back.

Interesting blog:

"The Western Star" is no more
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 at 09:45PM by Fergus O'Rourke in Cork | Post a Comment
I was astonished to learn today that Starrys has closed down permanently. It was only graced by my custom on about half-a dozen occasions, at least three of them long after my student days were over, but there must be tens of thousands of former students of UCC with a much greater and more intimate knowledge of the place.

For generations of students, it was the main "watering-hole" and, for many , the place where they were introduced to many modern vices (as well as some ancient ones).

I believe that it was on one of my own rare visits that I had my Clinton moment; I wonder whether, if I had inhaled, my life would have turned out any better.

This closure now means that once you leave the bar in Jurys Hotel on the Western Road, travelling westwards you will not meet another public house until Ballincollig Village without diverting off the road. Striking in itself, this is even more so when one realises the staggering increase in student accommodation in the Victoria Cross area, and the fact that the Dennehys Cross pub is also gone, I am told.

This is interesting from a sociological point of view, and also in terms of the markets for alcohol and property.

It is also interesting to reflect that between Jurys and Ballincollig, there is now just one petrol filling station, where up to fairly recently (say 5 years ago or so), there were 4.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Radioactiveman » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:35 am

I see CCC have CPO'd the Mill business building at Crosses Green, off Probys Quay.
There was plans for a (hideous) hotel by the same architect as Victoria Cross. What are the plans now? Anyone?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby jungle » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:41 am

mickeydocs wrote:This area is NOT ripe for high density developments as it is THE most important green belt area in the greater Cork area.


I hope nobody was refering to the entire Lee Fields, I certainly wasn't. Aside from its parkland status, the area is prone to serious flooding, so isn't suitable for development. That is after all why it hasn't been developed to date.

What I was considering was the low-rise industrial/retail units on the left hand side of the road after county hall. Places like CFM, Atkins etc.

Radioactiveman wrote:I see CCC have CPO'd the Mill business building at Crosses Green, off Probys Quay.
There was plans for a (hideous) hotel by the same architect as Victoria Cross. What are the plans now? Anyone?


No idea, but I notice that the building next door to it has been recently demolished.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby who_me » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:10 pm

Radioactiveman wrote:I see CCC have CPO'd the Mill business building at Crosses Green, off Probys Quay.
There was plans for a (hideous) hotel by the same architect as Victoria Cross. What are the plans now? Anyone?


Funny that, I just noticed yesterday (I live 20m from there) that the roof has been gutted and several windows removed. I don't know if that's an indication that something is imminent, or maybe if they leave it in such poor nick for a while, the general public will be more amenable to ANYTHING going in there.

I'd still take a gutted wreck over the hotel proposed for there. ;)
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby who_me » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:41 pm

Radioactiveman wrote:I see CCC have CPO'd the Mill business building at Crosses Green, off Probys Quay.
There was plans for a (hideous) hotel by the same architect as Victoria Cross. What are the plans now? Anyone?


The building is being torn down as I type, and at a fair old rate.

I guess this means the hotel proposal discussed here is going ahead? Ick.. I'm moving from the area so it won't affect me directly, but it's a horrible building, completely out of place in its surroundings.

Image

Update: Actually, reading back over the previous Cork threads, there's still hope:

"The plan was ultmately granted subject to a 2-storey reduction and revised bedroom number of 63. Now, a revised plan is to be lodged after assessment of the hotel market in Cork and with respect to viability issues given the permitted developments reduced bedroom numbers. It is understoof Derek Tynan & Associates have been retained to design a new scheme which will see the redevelopment of the Mill Business Centre as a new part 3-storey, part 5-storey open plan office building with river fronting amenity space all over basement parking for 15 spaces."
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Pug » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:14 am

Bord Pleanala gave the nod for 70 more apartments at Victoria Cross
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Spinal Tap » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:25 am

Pug wrote:Bord Pleanala gave the nod for 70 more apartments at Victoria Cross


Which site is that ?

The Crows Nest ?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Pug » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:17 am

I think its horrible, absolutely boring and would be up there with Victoria Cross as a failure to maximise a gateway entry to the city if they allow it to be built. Rothbury applied next door to them for 15 storeys but were told reduce it to 7 so I would expect the height to come down.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Radioactiveman » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:04 pm

There's a new application in play for the Crow's Nest and Victoria Villas site at Victoria Cross. The image belows demonstrates the awfulness that is now being proposed for the site. The final nail in the coffin of Victoria Cross? Predicatably (and rightly in my view) local objections prevail.


Image
View of Crow's Nest development from Victoria Cross



Nearby, a decision is due shortly on a development at St. Anthony's and Bridge House (you'll probably know it best as the cycle shop close to the Crow's Nest site). The image below gives a good indication of the extent of the development which consists of massive changes to St. Anthony's which is a protected building. An Taisce are amongst the parties to the application.

Image
*******************************************************************************************************
Tumblegate have applied to extend Jacob's on the Mall restaurant on the South Mall into the next door property recently vacated. It's still anybody's guess what the applicants are up to at the rear of these properties where they have been "working" on a boutique hotel and restaurant extension for many, many years.

******************************************************************************************************

In light of my recent post regarding Frinialla and the City Library site on Grand Parade, it is interesting to note that they have just applied for permission to alter their permitted development. Early days, but the modifications seem to include:
(1) reconfiguration of office/retail and circulation space
(2) change of use of one Grand Parade fronting retail unit to cafe use - this despite the impending opening of 2 new coffee pods in front of this site (how much coffee does this city need?)
(3) change of some office to retail use
(4) change of some higher level residential space to office use
(5) extension of 3rd, 4th , 5th and 6th floors to accomodate extra office space

No indications yet as to any reduction in size of the library (which had been mooted). Frankly this all smells like a stalling exercise. No news yet as to an alternative location for the City library during building (which Frinailla is obliged to provide), no news on a start date.
Hopefully, more information to follow.
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