St. Stephen's Green, Dublin

Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:21 pm

the interconnector is at an extremely early stage, and the reopening of Broadstone may be regarded as a political tactic to render it unnecessary. there are no route options at this stage. however as Metro North proceeds they will have to design in the interconnector from the outset

The main justification for the line is to provide 2 continuous DART lines through the city centre. Balbriggan to Kildare, and Maynooth to Greystones. The current north south alignment will be severed in the city, and cross cty journeys that you do in one today will require interchange underT21
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby kefu » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:21 pm

Regarding East Wall - the reason why there was such a gigantic hole was because the two tunnels had to emerge there to create the new roads. Whilst building a Metro, there is no such requirement. In saying that, I accept that a chunk of St Stephen's Green will end up a building site but comparing with Port Tunnel isn't realistic.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:30 pm

Fair comment but wouldn't it be better to continue on to Ranelagh; the Green at Manders Terrace would be a perfect launch site to get trucks of muck out with nowhere nearly as much hassle as St Green.

A proper change would take no more than 1-2 minutes walk underground and the increased frequencies on all routes will deliver net gains in journey times.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:39 pm

alonso wrote:there are no route options at this stage. however as Metro North proceeds they will have to design in the interconnector from the outset.


I think its fairly well accepted that the interconnector will travel through south city with stations at high street / christ church, st. stephen's green, pearse and on to spencer.

I've certainly never seen any variation on that alignment.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:37 pm

no neither have I. Docklands, Pearse, Green, Digital Hub and Heuston
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:41 pm

Peter FitzPatrick wrote:I think its fairly well accepted that the interconnector will travel through south city with stations at high street / christ church, st. stephen's green, pearse and on to spencer.

Do you think it is fairly well accepted? I would be interested to know what you base this on. It can certainly not be based on discussion of the line among the general public, as I suspect many people are unaware of the entire proposal. Even the Irish Rail website makes almost no mention of the project.

Whether or not the proposed alignment is the correct one, it is important that the proposed route should be discussed by the public in a public consultation process, along with other possible routes.

I've certainly never seen any variation on that alignment.


Alternative alignments were suggested long before the currently proposed alignment appeared. I suggest you look at the DRRTS report of the 1970's to inform yourself of just one of the other options.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:43 am

alonso wrote:the interconnector is at an extremely early stage, and the reopening of Broadstone may be regarded as a political tactic to render it unnecessary. there are no route options at this stage. however as Metro North proceeds they will have to design in the interconnector from the outset

A proposed route map has been produced by Irish Rail at a number of presentations. However, this has never been presented to the general public. It is vital that this proposed route, and other options which could also be feasible, should be presented to the public for consultation.

Based on the FACT that the interconnector will be a line with a much higher capacity than the metro, I think it's a pity that we don't see it as follows: "As the interconnector proceeds, they will have to design in the metro from the outset."

That statement would make a lot more sense to me.:(

The main justification for the line is to provide 2 continuous DART lines through the city centre. Balbriggan to Kildare, and Maynooth to Greystones. The current north south alignment will be severed in the city, and cross cty journeys that you do in one today will require interchange underT21

Obviously I understand what the interconnector is intended to achieve. But we had public consultation about the LUAS link-up, the metro north, the original LUAS, LUAS extensions, etc. Why must the highest capacity line ever proposed in this country be routed through St. Stephen's Green without proper discussion?
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:19 am

Seamus wrote:Why must the highest capacity line ever proposed in this country be routed through St. Stephen's Green without proper discussion?


Because its still 9 years away at best Seamus, with many worried that it will never happen at all.
Obviously all the usual hoops will have to be jumped for such a major project, with full public consultation etc.

I've heard several radio interviews with the heads of IE & RPA saying they are in close consultation re the hub at Stephen's Green, you have to assume that this is the case.

Agreed the interconnector & its benefits are known to few, IE need to change its title & clearly explain what it will mean in practice.

Given that metro north is starting at the green, the only question for the interconnector is where it should connect with the metro, o'connell or the green.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:03 am

If the tbm was inserted at the other end, it would only have to turned at stephen's green; is that possible, if the station was mined could the tbm be turned in the box without digging a huge hole?
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:24 am

Peter FitzPatrick wrote:Because its still 9 years away at best Seamus, with many worried that it will never happen at all.
Obviously all the usual hoops will have to be jumped for such a major project, with full public consultation etc.

I've heard several radio interviews with the heads of IE & RPA saying they are in close consultation re the hub at Stephen's Green, you have to assume that this is the case.

I do assume that this is the case.

So when does the consultation with the general public occur about the various options for our highest capacity line?
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:26 am

Seamus wrote:So when does the consultation with the general public occur about the various options for our highest capacity line?


Whenever we get a clear sign from IE or Government that the damn thing is actually going ahead at all.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:24 pm

Well that should give us plenty of time to look at all the possibilities.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby Rory W » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:53 pm

Seamus O'G wrote: Obviously I understand what the interconnector is intended to achieve. But we had public consultation about the LUAS link-up, the metro north, the original LUAS, LUAS extensions, etc. Why must the highest capacity line ever proposed in this country be routed through St. Stephen's Green without proper discussion?


Well if the interconnector is to (a) loop around the south City centre serving Pearse and onwards to Heuston and (b) meet with Luas and the metro then surely St Stephen's Green makes sense for a stop. I can't see what the problem is here Seamus?
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby Rory W » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:54 pm

Woo-hoo 1000 posts - now must start working:rolleyes:
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby lunasa » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:24 pm

What's all the fuss? There's plenty of room for excavating on the streetside of the railings, or will the faux fancy hotel start to complain. As it is, that part of 'The Green' isn't used anymore for through traffic (ahem, should a a city have through traffic?!?), and, if I recall well, when Frankfurt a/M was building her U-Bahn in the late sixties (yes folks we are THAT far behind) the disruption in the centre was only two thoroughfares wide. Great excuse to shift LUAS.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:38 pm

Rory W wrote:Well if the interconnector is to (a) loop around the south City centre serving Pearse and onwards to Heuston and (b) meet with Luas and the metro then surely St Stephen's Green makes sense for a stop. I can't see what the problem is here Seamus?

Well is it to loop around the south city centre? What was the problem with the original route proposed in the DRRTS study (which involved a line running from Connolly to Heuston that did not serve Pearse and did not loop around the south city centre)? Or some other route?

There must surely be a number of ways that a line can be built across the city between the Northern line and the Kildare line, connecting with the LUAS (as it is linked up) and with the metro (as it is built).

I suspect that it was possibly illegal for the RPA to refer to the proposed metro station at St. Stephen's Green as being a connection point to the proposed interconnector (in the document relating to the three possible routes), given that there has been no consultation about the much higher capacity line. However, unlike the M3 protestors, I would not have the resources to test this out.:(
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:40 pm

Not sufficient space outside luas on Stephen's Green west form what i understand. I'd be quite happy if the works could be confined to the roadway.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby jdivision » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:55 pm

Seamus, that route is already served via the Luas. they probably felt it would make more sense to go via south city centre in order to create a near radial route around the inner city.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green, Dublin

Postby alonso » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:17 pm

it's simple. We have a west-east connection on the northside already. It's overground. The interconnector is the Southside equivalent. Look at the map of Transport 21. we will have 2 distinct DART lines as I described above. There won't be public consultation on the i/c for years yet. I don't see the issue here at all.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green

Postby GrahamH » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:46 pm

Peter FitzPatrick wrote:Not sufficient space outside luas on Stephen's Green west from what i understand. I'd be quite happy if the works could be confined to the roadway.


Surely the Luas platform could just be temporarily shifted southwards? There's a huge tract of track here (outside Eircom), much longer than the existing stop that could be used to temporaily terminate the Luas instead of its current location. Unfortunately, going by the earlier picture, it seems they still won't have the width in the roadway that's required - though I can't see why three traffic lanes plus the substantial width of the Green pavement isn't sufficient...

Agreed the impact on the Green must be minimised; this is arguably the most scenic part of the park, with that delightfiul winding path leading up to the picturesque keeper's house, and the huge rolling lawn facing it with magnificent mature feature specimens strategically placed about. It'd be shameful for this to be destroyed.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green, Dublin

Postby PVC King » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:55 pm

Totally agree the impacts on Dublins best Square must be limited but during construction and post completion.

The reality is that at no time will metro come on street from the undeground at this location. Why are we discussing the surfacing of an incompleted underground line in an architectural conservation area?

It is totally bonkers both in terms of delivering an incomplete asset and for all the reasons Graham lists above.

I also want to see at leaat 3 to 4 entrances/ exits at this location as a gaping cavernous entrance would dominate the square and would distort pedestrian flows unacceptably.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green, Dublin

Postby alonso » Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:00 pm

eh do we all realise that the construction of the Metro will run concurrently with LUAS Line BX? The north east corner of the Green will simply be a construction site for 3 or 4 years.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green, Dublin

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:54 am

don't get me started on the farce that is the BX option alonso :mad:
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Re: St. Stephen's Green, Dublin

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:04 am

GrahamH wrote:Surely the Luas platform could just be temporarily shifted southwards? There's a huge tract of track here (outside Eircom), much longer than the existing stop that could be used to temporaily terminate the Luas instead of its current location. Unfortunately, going by the earlier picture, it seems they still won't have the width in the roadway that's required - though I can't see why three traffic lanes plus the substantial width of the Green pavement isn't sufficient...


Initially i thought the same Graham, I suppose it all depends on the detail & I am making a few assumptions... but if a TBM is to be dropped or removed within the green, its going to have a major impact. I assume the park itself has been flagged as the location because no section of surrounding roadway will do.

As said by many before, to terminate in the city centre is crazy, at the very least continue to the nearest open park or tract of publicly owned land that will allow the line continue to wherever without the same major disruption to the city centre 5 years+ of completion.
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Re: St. Stephen's Green, Dublin

Postby emf » Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:44 am

Why isn't it feasible to demolish one of the monstrous office blocks, (perhaps the Eircom office), drop in the equipment and then rebuild a new office block.

The trees and park have been maturing there for hundreds? of years and will take many, many decades to return to their former glory.

With this idea we get rid of an ugly office block, get the equipment in place and then re-instate a nicer building on site, (although going by the state of contemporary builds in this city I'm not so sure on that point!!).
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