St. Stephen's Green, Dublin

[Sarsfield]

[quote="KerryBog2"]Open to correction on this, but that has been replaced by a building occupied by the Permanent TSB. The building was originally built by the Irish Permanent Building Society and named "Edmund Farrell House" after the then CEO's daddy. I think it was initially to be named Sean Lemass House. There was an outcry over it at the time. Then the Trustee Savings Bank took over the IPBS and rightly dumped the HQ's name. There was a later and separate row over Edmund Farrell’]

There was a piece in yesterdays SBP about the PTSB HQ. Irish Life intends to move PTSB to its Abbey St complex subject to getting pp for some new development on the Abbey St site. The general Abbey/Talbot St. area is experiencing a bit of a renaissance in the last couple of years.

[Paul Clerkin]

The St Stephen’s Green headquarters could sell for up to €100 million. About three years ago, the former headquarters of the Department of Justice on St Stephen’s Green sold for about €52 million. The St Stephen’s Green buildings have had a colourful history.

Mary Aikenhead, a convert to Catholicism and founder of the Sisters of Charity, established St Vincent’s Hospital for the sick poor of Dublin in the buildings in 1834. St Vincent’s transferred to Elm Parki n 1970.

The buildings were bought for £8million in 1979 by the Irish Permanent Building Society’s managing director Edmund Farrell who changed their name from Sean Lemass House to Edmund Farrell House after his father who ran the building society until his death in 1975.

The group subsequently changed the name of the buildings to 56-59 St Stephen’s Green after Farrell’s departure as head of the building society in 1993.

[KerryBog2]

Thanks for the name clarification Paul.
€100 million is not a great price, really. A house bought in 1979 is now worth a multiple of about 30 times the purchase price, so a comparable return would be 240 million.
Now I'm trying to remember what happened to "96" - the nursing home around the corner on Leeson St. The new /relocated Nursing home opened in May 1974.Was 96 subsumed into the Institute of Education (originally an MEPC development??) Is 96 that far up from the Green?
KB2

[tommyt]

Hartigans is 101 and the numbers run normally (i.e. not odds and evens )so it would be part of the Dept. of Marine/Coillte building accessed on Leeson lane or the catholic University School

[manifesta]

Here's a question that's been bugging me for I don't know how long. Can anyone explain why certain streets in Dublin are numbered with adjacent houses in sequential order (1, 2, 3, 4 all on the same side of the street) while most (those that 'run normally') have all the odds on one side and the evens on the other?

I've never been able to figure out any pattern or logic to the numbering and it seems an (er, sorry) odd thing to have both patterns existing within the same city. Is this variance at all unique to Dublin or has anyone noticed this elsewhere? The only possible logical explanation I could muster was that the numbering system has to do with when the street was developed, but even so. . . I'm stumped.

[jdivision]

ColIt is worth a wander into the courtyard there for a scooch around-You get a great view of the 4 bed semis that are built off Cuffe St-none of these ever seem to come on the market which has always surprised me-there's not many of them and they look like they would be more at home in an English Home counties/commuter town. A very desirable little enclave

There was a two-bed one off Cuffe Street on the market last year I think asking e525,000 if memory serves.

[SeamusOG]

Here's a question that's been bugging me for I don't know how long. Can anyone explain why certain streets in Dublin are numbered with adjacent houses in sequential order (1, 2, 3, 4 all on the same side of the street) while most (those that 'run normally') have all the odds on one side and the evens on the other?

I've never been able to figure out any pattern or logic to the numbering and it seems an (er, sorry) odd thing to have both patterns existing within the same city. Is this variance at all unique to Dublin or has anyone noticed this elsewhere? The only possible logical explanation I could muster was that the numbering system has to do with when the street was developed, but even so. . . I'm stumped.

And it doesn't stop there.

There's say, the Lower Leeson Street pattern, which goes 1-ca. 50 from the Green up to the kiosk, then ca. 50-ca. 100 back from the canal to the Green on the other side. And the all-odd/all-even option. Both of which you mention.

Then on Lower Mount Street, the numbers start on the southern side of the street at the Merrion Square/Holles Street End and go sequentially (1, 2, 3, etc.) up as far as the canal (around number 45/50, I think). Then it's back to the Holles Street end, where the numbers go (for example) 50,51, 52 all the way back to the canal.

There may be others.

As far as I know there does not seem to be a pattern. What an interesting city!:)

[KerryBog2]

I've never been able to figure out any pattern or logic to the numbering and it seems an (er, sorry) odd thing to have both patterns existing within the same city. Is this variance at all unique to Dublin or has anyone noticed this elsewhere? .

In Ireland it is anyone's guess... Sneem has North and South Squares; both are located to the east and west of the bridge and are triangles!
In Paris the low numbers start at the end of the street nearest the Seine and then increase as one moves away from it. Great when you are trying to identify where the house is located on a street. Before I knew this, as a student, I once walked the length of the rue de Vaugirard to find a cheap hotel ..it was out by by the Periph.. Pair and impair(even/odd) are on left and right sides.
In Manhattan the numbers start at the south end ad work north; there is a formula (works for most Avenues) for finding the cross-street from the number on an Avenue..... I used to know that stuff when I lved there, now long forgotten.
KB

[newgrange]

There were also occasions when streets were renumbered. I know this certainly happened in the case of Summerhill and presumably for other streets too.

Personally, I live on a street where one side is numbered 1-3 consecutively, the other side is 31-36 consecutively.
My side at one stage did have ten houses on it, the other side only ever had the six that are still there.

[tommyt]

And it doesn't stop there.

There's say, the Lower Leeson Street pattern, which goes 1-ca. 50 from the Green up to the kiosk, then ca. 50-ca. 100 back from the canal to the Green on the other side. And the all-odd/all-even option. Both of which you mention.

Then on Lower Mount Street, the numbers start on the southern side of the street at the Merrion Square/Holles Street End and go sequentially (1, 2, 3, etc.) up as far as the canal (around number 45/50, I think). Then it's back to the Holles Street end, where the numbers go (for example) 50,51, 52 all the way back to the canal.

There may be others.

As far as I know there does not seem to be a pattern. What an interesting city!:)

It's also very confusing for a rookie courier as well as you could imagine-You learn very quickly from your mistakes!

[Peter Fitz]

This article is from a few months back ...

Stephen’s Green to be dug-up for new metro system
By Seán McCárthaigh

A QUARTER of Dublin’s iconic St Stephen’s Green will close to the public in 2009 to allow construction work on a new metro system for Dublin.

Under plans being drawn up by government agencies overseeing the project, access to the western side of the green between Grafton Street and Harcourt Street will be sealed off.

The plan also envisages that the section being used to build a large underground rail station will remain closed until at least 2013 with half of the existing lake being drained to make way for excavation work on the underground rail system.

The project will also require the removal of a large number of mature trees and shrubbery and the creation of a large vehicle entrance at the south-west corner of the green.

It is also likely that statues of the Irish patriot, Robert Emmet and Lord Ardilaun, better known as Sir Arthur Guinness — the former owner of St Stephen’s Green who gifted the park to the citizens of Dublin in the late 19th century — will have to be temporarily relocated.

Under the Government’s Transport 21 blueprint St Stephen’s Green will become one of Dublin’s main transport hubs as a junction for Luas and Metro services as well as the rail interconnector which will link the city’s main shopping area with Heuston Station and the new Spencer Dock station which opened earlier this week.

The excavation work will undoubtedly become a bone of contention for thousands of regular visitors who view the park as a quiet oasis in the heart of the city.

However, the main pedestrian entrance at the top of Grafton Street will remain open with the public still able to access the central area of the green via the small bridge which crosses the lake.

The Office of Public Works — which has responsibility for St Stephen’s Green — confirmed yesterday that it was in discussions with the Rail Procurement Agency and Irish Rail about closure of a section of the park to facilitate construction work on the new underground station.

“The OPW is open to the idea of allowing the green to be used for construction work on the provision that it is subject to a minimum of disruption,” said an OPW spokesperson.

However, the Irish Examiner understands that there are serious concerns that the RPA and Irish Rail want to use a controversial “cut and cover” method to build the underground station.

Informed sources said the OPW is likely to insist on the more expensive deep tunnelling method which would limit the surface area of the park which would have to be dug up.

Likely area of works ...



Now, i'm no tree hugger, but some alternative has to be found.

The green has matured perfectly & no amount of reparation work will erase the scars of construction.
Any felling of the mature specimens, particularly in the larger box marked above can never be undone, it would seriously undermine what is a perfect environment / city park.

I don't want to see any delay to the interconnector or metro north, but i'd sooner see substantial chunks of roady way around the green temporarily dug up if it meant the green itself could be saved.

Any alternatives ! ?

The large lawn of Iveagh Park ?

[jdivision]

If you're talking about the Iveagh Gardens you must be kidding, it's the nicest park in the city, far nicer than St Stephen's Gren. The whole reason for doing it at St Stephen's Green is that it will link up with the Luas green line. This has been known about for two years at least. The deep tunnelling method should work and the undergound station could end up being superb, similar to some of the London underground stations

[alonso]

it's my understanding that the majority of the north west quadrant would be closed and dug up. In this case i think expediency (short sharp shock theory) and the need for a quality interchange outweigh the harshness of tghe measures required. Maybe it will open people's eyes to Merrion, Fitz and Iveagh Gardens as well? Now if only there was some sort of similar place for people in Dublin 6... oh wait...

[tommyt]

Lord Ardilaun will be spinning on his plinth!

[Peter Fitz]

If you're talking about the Iveagh Gardens you must be kidding, it's the nicest park in the city, far nicer than St Stephen's Gren. The whole reason for doing it at St Stephen's Green is that it will link up with the Luas green line. This has been known about for two years at least. The deep tunnelling method should work and the undergound station could end up being superb, similar to some of the London underground stations

No quibble with St. Stephens Green as a location for the station jdivision & no doubt that the Iveagh Gardens are a treasure.

The problem is the size of the area required to sink the TBM, which basically means the removal of the mature tree stock in the north west corner of st. stephens green.

I'm suggesting the large lawn of Iveagh Gardens because of its size & proximity, visible on the aerial shot. Lawn can be easily replaced, 200 year old trees that have matured in tandem with the rest of the green can't.

[kefu]

Is the massive TBM site required at both ends? When they were digging the Port Tunnel, the enormous canyon needed for the tunneling machine was only dug in Whitehall - there was no need for one at East Wall AFAIK.
It is possible the work could be relatively unobtrusive considering all you really need are maybe a few sets of stair wells into the Metro Station.
Don't see any real alternative because they can't touch St Stephen's Green West itself without interfering with Luas. Unless of course they dug up the area outside Habitat/Top Man but that's not really a runner to turn the top of the main shopping street of the country into a building site.

[notjim]

kefu, you obviously aren't from east wall: there was a huge hole dug in fairview park, they are still backfilling it, one tbm was inserted at whitehall and turned at fairview, the final piece, from fairview to the exit, was tunneled by hand. As for stephen's green, clearly they should keep going to crumlin and dig up sundrive park instead.

[Peter Fitz]

As for stephen's green, clearly they should keep going to crumlin and dig up sundrive park instead.

Definitely notjim. Starting or stopping construction of the tunnel in the city centre is nonsense, esp given its impact on Stephen's Green. Sundrive would make a good location to carry on construction to Tallaght or wherever down the road which has already been signaled.

The fact that the long term aim is to extend metro north to the south city & suburbs makes the destruction of the north west quadrant of stephen's green all the more pointless.
I wouldn't mind if it could be reinstated as is, but that is just not possible.

[alonso]

this metro line will only be extended south along the current LUAS line B. That was in the DTO strategy and dropped from T21. The Tallaght Metro is out altogether. Too difficult and too expensive, as it would be entirely underground. The DTO strategy had it because their assessment thought it necessary, but Cullen knew better.

Much of the Green will be surrounded by hoardings and dug up. I presume LUAS will continue normal service. The EIS will tell all details. Any idea when this might be submitted?

There's also potential for this entire junciton (Grafton, north green, west and king street) to be pedestrianised and unite the green with grafton street, as the LUAS will probably render it useless to cars. Could be pretty good i reckon. A pedestrian dominated space from Leeson street to parnell square anyone?

[jdivision]

The plan I believe is to leave the tunnel bore under the Green in the "hope" - because they're not sure if it can be restarted - that the line will eventually be extended to Firhouse.

Re: Iveagh Gardens, the point is the underground has to be next to the Luas station. It has to be St Stephen's Green. I would hope there's ways in which the trees can be temporarily moved. The lawn in the Iveagh Gardens is actually the only purpose built archery practice ground in Ireland (afaik). There's also an elephant from Dublin Zoo that died in 1922 buried there. Not that that makes it worthy of preservation but thought it might interest people.

[alonso]

where did you get that firhouse plan from? that's news to me....is it just the Tallaght line from the DTO plan?

[Peter Fitz]

The plan I believe is to leave the tunnel bore under the Green in the "hope" - because they're not sure if it can be restarted - that the line will eventually be extended to Firhouse.

Re: Iveagh Gardens, the point is the underground has to be next to the Luas station. It has to be St Stephen's Green. I would hope there's ways in which the trees can be temporarily moved. The lawn in the Iveagh Gardens is actually the only purpose built archery practice ground in Ireland (afaik). There's also an elephant from Dublin Zoo that died in 1922 buried there. Not that that makes it worthy of preservation but thought it might interest people.

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting relocating the metro station from st. stephen's green for a second, it obviously has to be directly beside the interconnector station ... just using the lawn at Iveagh to sink the TBM thereby allowing for much more limited excavation at St. Stephen's Green to connect in to the bore & construct the underground terminus.

If the lake was sufficient in size to sink the TBM within the green i wouldn't mind, but i very much doubt it, in which case the cluster to the right of the Fusiliers Arch will be removed. To be clear the group of mature trees to the right of the arch is exactly what is at issue here.



There is no possibility that mature trees of that vintage can be successfully moved.

I don't want to see metro delayed by an inch but there will be more tara like hassle once people cop on, an alternative should be found.

Interesting stuff about the iveagh lawn jd.

[jdivision]

where did you get that firhouse plan from? that's news to me....is it just the Tallaght line from the DTO plan?

i seem to recollect a senior official in the department of transport saying it to a Dail subcommittee meeting. I think it was shown in Oireachtas Report but not sure if I ever saw it in a newspaper. I'll do some searching.

[SeamusOG]

Under the Government’s Transport 21 blueprint St Stephen’s Green will become one of Dublin’s main transport hubs as a junction for Luas and Metro services as well as the rail interconnector which will link the city’s main shopping area with Heuston Station and the new Spencer Dock station which opened earlier this week.

I find this all very odd.

At no stage has there been any public consultation about the proposed interconnector.

No invitation for views about the proposed line, and no consultation about the merits of a number of possible routes across the city.

As the main original justification for proposing the line was that it would relieve the bottleneck at Connolly Station - a situation which has now been dealt with to a large extent by the presence of the Docklands Station - I find it amazing that we are being led to believe that this can only be achieved by building the proposed interconnector through St. Stephen's Green.

There must be other options. And as it's a very important line, the public should get a chance to see those options and make their views known.

[Lotts]

where did you get that firhouse plan from? that's news to me....is it just the Tallaght line from the DTO plan?

Regarding luas for firhouse - there was speculation about joining the lines as follows : Tallaght -> Firhouse -> Knocklyon -> Balinteer, then to Dundrum or Sandyford. See wikipediafor more.
Doubt it will happen in even medium term.

Nearest LUAS will get to firhouse may be Rathfarnham ....

"Substantially improve and expand Luas services in Dublin by:
• Joining the Green and Red Luas lines.
• Extending Luas to Docklands.
• Extending Luas to Citywest.
• Extending Luas to Cherrywood.
• Extending Luas to Lucan.
• Extending Luas from the City Centre to Liffey Junction (Broadstone/Cabra).
• Extending Luas to Rathfarnham subject to a feasibility study. "

Programme for government 12th June 2007.