Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby GrahamH » Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:34 pm

Given the relative 'neatness' of the job, with expansion joints apparently included, this would appear to be permanent...

Absolutely no excuse for this. And even if the surface is temporary, it is wasteful and unnecessary in its own right. The displaced granite could easily be cleaned and repaired as service works were underway within the trench, both conserving resources and minimising disruption to the public. And look at that shameful pile of granite: nothing numbered, nothing protected from slippage. Disgraceful job.
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Postby Devin » Sun May 06, 2007 5:13 pm

.
Staying with City Hall for a minute:



Image

Late '90s picture, showing the intact west pavement of City Hall on the right.




Image

15 bollards and 2 heritage bins have since been added.


Again, same issues as with the plaza paving bollards next door:

[INDENT] - the cut required for each bollard means permanent irreversible damage to the historic paving fabric

- no consultation or justification presented; the bollards just appeared one day. There had been a problem with people parking on the street in this location as far as I remember, but not on the pavement … so why the great need for bollards?[/INDENT]
Granted it can be said that the painted cast iron design here is more visually appropriate to the paving and the surrounds than the stainless steel used at the plaza.



Image

The square cut needed for the bollard. Note shocking raised cement pointing also. I see that City Hall has just won another award for its conservation (reported in paper last week) :

http://www.riai.ie/index.html?id=7237

Hmmmmm ….
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby hutton » Sun May 06, 2007 5:26 pm

[quote="Devin"]There had been a problem with people parking on the street in this location as far as I remember, but not on the pavement …]

Correct - there had been a "problem" with people parking here - hutton happily used to have the limosene parked here some years ago (2000 - '03) after discovering that there were no yellow lines, and so it was legal... trend caught on and other dirty great spoilers started copying - with the logical result that yellow lines were iinserted.... So the limo had to go elsewhere :( -
But no-one ever parked on the footpath either then or since as that was always a clampable offence

So Devins puzzle stands - for what need these bollards :confused:
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby Devin » Sun May 06, 2007 5:35 pm

That's jogged my memory hutton; while City Hall was refurbished in 2000, the bollards appeared roundabout 2003. They must have clamped down on parking along this stretch at the same time. Still, no insights as to the bollards, as you say ...
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby ake » Sun May 06, 2007 5:47 pm

Aren't the bollards supposed to stop you opening the car door?
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby Walker » Tue May 15, 2007 7:39 pm

[quote="Devin"].
Staying with City Hall for a minute:

Image

15 bollards and 2 heritage bins have since been added.


Devin’s second photo from the 6th May demonstrates the overkill our built heritage environment is suffering at the hands of insensitivity. Traffic Management regulations must be coupled with the required protection of heritage. Does there have to be three parking deterrents; 1) bollards on our fine handcrafted paving, and 2) double yellow lines on our individually laid cobbles; and 3) No parking signs on heritage lamposts. Could there have been some other way of achieving the same objective without visual clutter and with respect for this unique setting?

As for the cement pointing of the paving – a blatant disregard of the protected status of this structure and its setting – the paving alone is worthy of Protected Structure status. Each flagstone is now framed with a cement ridge. Note: from Devin’s Photo C of the 6th Jan 07 the apparent seamlessness of the surface of the flagstones as they run into each other without the definite straight edges which have been introduced in photo B of the 6th Jan 07.

Conservation Guidelines No 4 – Mortars, Pointing and Renders (1996)
Extract “3. Inappropriate pointing: Raised pointing unfortunately all too commonly seen is aesthetically very disfiguring and more seriously, it allows water to lodge on top thus setting up decay in the masonry or brickwork. To avoid future problems the wall may have to be repointed.”

Conservation Guidelines No 8 – Paving and Street Furniture
Extract “4. Inappropriate pointing of paving slabs
All stone paving should be flush pointed to a sufficient depth to ensure permanence”
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby GrahamH » Thu May 17, 2007 8:43 pm

Precisely Walker. And this pavement is also one of the worst examples in the city of the practice. Not only is it unsightly to look at, it's also very uncomfortable in any leather-soled shoe - now I know why the princess whinged so much about that pea. You can feel every clumsy ridge in the pavement as you walk over them. And the bollards are absolutely ridiculous - they serve no function whatsoever. Indeed DCC shot themselves in the foot there, because countless taxis pull up at the side door to allow visitors and delegates into City Hall - one would wonder how many near misses with car doors they've had.

To add fuel to the fire, last Sunday a bunch of yellow jackets were grouped around a hole they dug in the centre of this very roadway pictured below, apparently changing a drain in the centre. They then 'finished' up the job with enormous splodge of tarmac, well over a metre square, dumped smack bang in the middle of the cobbled roadway, right in front of the main entrance to the Castle, City Hall and the Newcomen Bank. And it's still there a week later.
Even if these surfaces are 'temporary', there's still absolutely no excuse for the original surface not to be immediately reinstated.

Incidentally the photo posted by Devin there shows one of the most charming sitings of a lamppost in the entire city - this swan neck one on the corner from c.1903.

Devin wrote:Image



I love how it stands so precariously on top of the hill at the very edge of the pavement, especially as you approach from below, and how it so effectively lights the corner too. By its very appearance it is suggestive of developing there organically, simply replacing post after post on the same site. And if we even needed photogrphic evidence, here is the corner around 1900 with its arc-lamp predecessor, installed on all the main streets of Dublin in 1892 :)

Image


Image

So this almost certainly makes it the oldest surviving post of all the main commercial streets in the entire city! It never fails to astound how a truck hasn't ploughed into it somewhere along the line. Bizarrely it's now more at risk from DCC than it is from a runaway vehicle.
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby tommyt » Fri May 18, 2007 12:05 am

Apologies to Devin et al if this has been covered in this thread already but the west side of merrion square from the national gallery entrance to the junction with clare st is in an awful state and worthy of pictorial commentary at the moment-the usual globs of tarmac around new water mains ,cement bodges etc. on what is one of the few remaining extant 'carpets' of wicklow granite paving apart from the southside of Molesworth st.and the southside of fitz sq.that I am aware of.
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby Devin » Fri May 18, 2007 1:26 am

Aw stop, it would drive you to drink! .... It's the Dublin City Council Water Metering Project. Have just lodged a big complaint about it.

Firstly, I'm sorry if people are sick of looking at close-up pictures of pavements, but this has really got to be documented up here:




Image

Herbert Street




Image

Merrion Square East


The project has been ongoing for the past couple of months in the south Georgian area of the city. It involves insertion of a meter with a plastic cover in the pavement in front of every premises in the area. Kerbing is unaffected, but, where complete listed pavements exist, it requires removal of one or more flagstones in the pavement to insert the meter. The remaining area around the meter was initially filled in with a dollop of tarmac (as seen above), pending the careful cutting and reinstating of removed flagstones … no problems so far ….

Reinstatement work has begun in the past couple weeks and ....... you’ll never guess ....... they are making a rotten mess of it and muggins has to go chasing it up. The old flags are not being put back; white granite and concrete is being used instead, then the cement is slapped on .......

There's all this blather in the Development Plan about the Georgian cores of the city being of 'international importance' and establishing a 'national urban idiom' but, once again, the CC is exposed as having no system for standards of work to these valuable pavements.




Image

Fitzwillian Square North. Yum!




Image

Upper Pembroke Street. Mix 'n match.




Image

Upper Mount Street. We'll put in a few concrete flags here - no one will notice .. quicker than cutting old granite ...




Image

Upper Mount Street. The utter sloppiness of it!
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby GrahamH » Fri May 18, 2007 2:41 am

This is obscene! It's truly unbelieveable! :eek:

Whatever about one-off instances (even the above taken on a singular basis), it truly beggars belief that an infrastructural scheme that affects so many historic areas doesn't even have guidelines, let alone a plan or framework for dealing with these historically precious places. It's like ploughing Luas through a Georgian street without drawing up an EIS, let alone conditions of construction.

What is the exact status of this 'listing' of pavements, because the Record doesn't include them, while the Development Plan doesn't expressly mention protection either (as in PS status). So is the only recourse left open to complainants after the local authority to contact the Minister and force the enaction of the Plan?

You have to love it:

"In recognition of the importance of these features and the pressure placed on them from road and paving works, Dublin City Council will seek to preserve, repair and retain in situ historic streetscape and paving features of heritage value which are set out in Appendices 8, 9, and 10."
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby Lotts » Fri May 18, 2007 11:04 am

Devin - who should complaints be addressed to? What's the most useful approach to take?
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri May 18, 2007 11:33 am

Can they not access these utilities by shifting the works 1 ft to the right, so many are on the edge of the pavement, they wouldn't even be disrupting traffic, just a single parking space temporarily. There they can make as much mess as they like & leave the shaggin pavement intact.
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby Devin » Fri May 18, 2007 6:52 pm

Yes, true, they shouldn't actually be located on the pavement at all where this granite paving exists. At the edge of the road or within the premises itseld should have been the option.

Lotts,
Des Callaghan of the Waterworks Dept. - 2224397 - is in charge of the job. Also the senior engineer for the area - seamus.duffy@dublincity.ie. And the Heritage Officer - donncha.odulaing@dublincity.ie - whose is officially in charge of listed street furniture.
Do complain. I've found out that the Georgian Society, whose office is on Merrion Square, have also been onto the council about it, but the more hassle they get, the better.

GrahamH wrote:What is the exact status of this 'listing' of pavements, because the Record doesn't include them
That's the catch! You would have to be able to prove they formed part of the curtilage of the adjoining prot structures. Then they would require pp for work, and it would all have to be done according to best practice and different options would have to be considered etc. etc. But the pavements are separately owned by the council, under the care of the Roads Maintenance section, and so can be destroyed before you know about it ... the whole thing is a farce!
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby Lotts » Mon May 21, 2007 8:27 am

Devin wrote:Lotts,
Des Callaghan of the Waterworks Dept. - 2224397 - is in charge of the job. Also the senior engineer for the area - seamus.duffy@dublincity.ie. And the Heritage Officer - donncha.odulaing@dublincity.ie - whose is officially in charge of listed street furniture.
Do complain. I've found out that the Georgian Society, whose office is on Merrion Square, have also been onto the council about it, but the more hassle they get, the better.



Thanks very much. I'll certainly follow up with them on this matter.
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby GrahamH » Sat May 26, 2007 4:38 pm

The delightful scene presented to those attending the Urbanism conference in the Castle during the week.

Image


At least the widening works of the Olympia pavement opposite are finally underway.

Image

Beautiful cycle lane. These cyclists have it too good.
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby ake » Sat May 26, 2007 8:11 pm

GrahamH wrote:The delightful scene presented to those attending the Urbanism conference in the Castle during the week.

[


un be fucking lievable. The sheer ignorance of it!
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby StephenC » Sun May 27, 2007 1:26 pm

GrahamH wrote:Beautiful cycle lane. These cyclists have it too good.


Has to be one of the worst stretches of roadway in the city as well. Its littered with potholes. An absolute scandal.

I have added my voice to others with an email to the Heritage Officer...I won't hold my breath.....:(
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby corcaighboy » Sun May 27, 2007 3:10 pm

That kind of carry on is just shameful. By the way, when making a complaint to the council, I have this advice. Calling them on the phone is a waste of time...such a call is never recorded nor kept on file so saying that you called them many times cuts no ice. Best to actually send a letter (preferably registered) so that the council actually have to acknowledge it and file it. Keep on sending them a letter on a regular basis and you would be amazed at the results. I found it was the only way Cork County Council would react to complaints....after 50 letters they can be shamed into actually doing something. Also, letters from community groups or resident associations/professional groups tend to carry more weight. If you have a valid complaint (and the massacre of Dublin's pavements certainly qualifies) then the council needs to be shamed into changing their ways.
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby Alek Smart » Mon May 28, 2007 1:37 am

Great Thread,if only to underline my long held belief that nothing short of a total demobilization of Dublin City Council and all its works (Except the Parks Dept) will save the day.

The problem is essentially one of ACTUAL vs NOTIONAL responsibility.
Not one of the City Council`s assemblage of Senior Administrators and Engineering Professionals will have a single cent deducted from their wagepackets for authorising and presiding over sloppy,second rate and downright negligent work.

In fact the time honoured established Civil Service dictum "Promote out of Harms way" will doubtlessly come along any day now.

I say bring on Mr Wallace and let him have a stab at it....after all "It`s a Beautiful Game" or at least it is to DCC`s executive branch !! :p
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby Devin » Mon May 28, 2007 3:58 pm

Funny you should mention him Alek; there’s a pavement-widening job going on at the moment on Capel Street and, difficult though it is to believe, it is being executed to a high standard. Listed kerbing and, where surviving, paving is being incorporated in situ and neatly pointed in a sand-lime mix, and new paving built out from that.

The council’s only work where old paving is concerned has been destructive, so it couldn’t be by them, could it? No, it’s by Wallace.
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby constat » Tue May 29, 2007 12:07 pm

ake wrote:un be fucking lievable. The sheer ignorance of it!


The architects of ancient Rome would surely turn in their tombs if they saw the progress made in over two millenium by contemporary DCC craftsmen!! :o
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New Offender Spotted on North Great Georges St

Postby hutton » Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:35 pm

New offender spotted - this time at the NE end of North Great Georges St, outside circa no. 45; a couple of honey glazed slabs replaced by inappropriate shiny granite, spoiling the otherwise commendable restoration of a house. For what its supposed to be worth, the current City Development Plan both designates N Georges St as a Conservation Area and has specific policies directed at conservation of pavement features :mad:
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby publicrealm » Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:30 pm

Ciaran wrote:That's so pathetic that I had to check and see if it was April fools day:( Terrible.



I noted at the weekend that the road at Stephens Street Upper (adjacent the recently removed granite footpath paving area) was being resurfaced and the top layer had been stripped off in readiness.

This exposed a very substantial area of well laid and very attractive stone sets, laid diagonally and interwoven with a concrete surface.

Don't know when they date from and I didn't have a camera - so they are now reburied under new tarmac for another 100 years.

I suppose we should be grateful that they are still there :confused:
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:05 pm

publicrealm wrote:I suppose we should be grateful that they are still there :confused:

...and that Dick Roche didn't give direction for them to be be preserved by record. ;)
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Re: Dublin Historic Stone Paving disbelief

Postby GrahamH » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:36 pm

:p

What a shame - they sound most interesting publicrealm.

Curiously, around the corner the setts outside City Hall/Castle gate are also being relaid now, over a month after they were first dug up. Why the delay? And why the questionable manner of relaying?

Image

As can be seen from before, the whole roadway leading up to the gate is laid with typically dodgy widely-spaced setts, instead of attractively (and more comfortably for both pedestrian and driver) knitted tightly together. While not a major breach - heck we're lucky to have setts here at all - it nonetheless demonstrates the usual lack of attention to detail and appreciation of a traditional craft, as per granite paving pointing and bollardism. Many of the gaps are also just filled with rough dirt, poured tar and concrete. Indeed the sham of these setts is also shown by the fact of their termination in a ridiculous straight line at the top of the hill along the edge of the Castle entrance - they don't even continue into Castle Street to give a bit of visual breathing space. It's embarrassingly cheap, half-hearted and visually incoherent.

Cork Hill really has been fecked over in the past five years, and all details - from pavements, to roadway surface, to yellow lines, to lampposts, to bollards - now need attention. The fact that it's all on the doorstep of City Hall says it all really. And seperately, the Castle gate piers have also sadly lost their lamps in the past few years; they nicely terminated the vista up the hill and created something of a dramatic entrance.
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