Luas Central - Which Route?

Luas Central - Which Route? I would prefer...

Route A
114
37%
Route B
127
41%
Route C
25
8%
Route D
27
9%
Route E
14
5%
 
Total votes : 307

Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby SeamusOG » Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:26 pm

I realise there are other issues dealt with in this article but, in relation to the LUAS, it looks like we might soon get an answer. If they're using the Archiseek poll to decide, it'll be a tough call.:p

Irish Independent, Today wrote:D-day looms for Metro rail route

THE route of the Metro North rail link from the city centre to Swords is to be announced next month, writes Paul Melia.

The Railway Procurement Agency said yesterday it will also reveal how the existing Luas Red and Green lines will be linked through the city centre and that an announcement would be made following the September board meeting.

Also yesterday the RPA said consultants had been engaged to carry out feasibility studies on the proposed Metro West route that will eventually link Tallaght to Ballymun.

The first phase from Tallaght to Clondalkin is due for completion by 2009.

A spokesman said it was hoped to put a number of routes out for public consultation in October or November, and that a number of different routes were being considered.

Various options

"The real issue is how it will get from Tallaght to the airport, and we're looking at various route options there," he said.

"We have a preferred route for Metro North, and the board is expected to endorse this.

"But there are still a number of issues to be resolved, including whether the airport station will be underground or overground, and how the metro will travel through Ballymun."

The Metro West project is expected to be fully completed by 2014 when Tallaght will be linked to the airport via Clondalkin, Lucan and Blanchardstown.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Frank Taylor » Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:07 pm

The correct answer to which route, may be 'none of the above'. The original intention was to connect the airport metro to the southside luas line and this is now mysteriously not even an option. We are to have instead two separate lines running at the same gauge that terminate in the same place in the city centre but are not connected. The capacity of the southside luas line will continue to be crippled by its on-street section. The tunnel boring machine for the northside metro will be abandoned under Stephen's Green rather than finishing the job by tunneling on to surface at Ranelagh and join the existing line

So there is a consultation process but the public was not consulted about the most important decision of all.

City centre roadspace is precious. A north-south underground link would free up the road section along harcourt street and stephens green and the unbuilt section between Stephen's Green and O'Connell Street to be used by pedestrians, buses or bikes whichever makes most sense.

Does anyone know why the north-south metro was abandoned in favour of building this nonsensical on-street link?
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby SeamusOG » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:47 pm

The RPA wrote:From St.Stephen's Green terminus OPTION E runs along St.Stephen's Green North. At the Dawson St. junction the line splits with one track for trams heading north towards the Red Line running along Dawson St. as far as Nassau St. while the track for trams coming from the Red Line extends further east along St. Stephen's Green North and runs along Kildare St. and Nassau St. before rejoining the other track in Nassau St. at the Dawson St. junction. From Nassau St. the line would continue into the lower part of Grafton St., College Green and Westmoreland St.. Approaching O'Connell Bridge the two tracks separate to run on each side of the traffic median on the bridge and continue into O'Connell St. running on each side of the median to connect with the Red Line at the junction of O'Connell St. and Abbey St.. Possible stop locations include Dawson St. (for trams heading towards the Red Line), Kildare St. (for trams heading towards the Green Line), Westmoreland St. and O'Connell St.

Perhaps someone could help out here, as I can't seem to copy the picture illustrating option E.

It's just that a thought occurred to me over the weekend about this possibility, which is comfortably the least favoured option on this forum.

And it's this. If the trams were to go South instead of North along Dawson Street, and North instead of South along Kildare Street, it might help to reduce the conflicts between the trams and buses in and around TCD. There could be a tram stop on the East side of Dawson Street (perhaps doubling with a station around the corner on the South side of Nassau Street), the West side of Kildare Street and the East side of Westmoreland Street]also travelling in the same direction[/I] to perhaps a couple of hundred metres (between the bottom of Dawson Street and the stretch around the front of TCD), with the loss only of the stops at the front of TCD, the potential conflicts could be seriously reduced.

The same kind of thing could also be achieved by reversing the bus flows along Dawson Street and Kildare Street. With the current arrangements around St. Stephen's Green, that might even be more favourable.

Anybody get what I'm on about?
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby The Denouncer » Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:56 pm

I read an article in the Irish Mail on Sunday yesterday that says that due to objections raised by Dublin Bus, Route A is now dropped in favour of Route B..anyone else see this?
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby jimg » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:34 pm

So it looks like we'll be getting the worst of all worlds: a new bridge and a needlessly complex and confusing route with no extra integration with DART while still not addressing the non-issues (for me) of construction on O'Connell Street and poles on College Green.

Irish Times wrote:The proposed route from St Stephen's Green, to be announced today, would run as a double track to College Green, where it would change to single track and run north via Westmoreland Street, O'Connell Bridge and along the west side of O'Connell Street.

It would turn into Cathal Brugha Street and then run south along Marlborough Street, crossing the Liffey on a new bridge and continuing via Hawkins Street and College Street to rejoin the double track section at College Green.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby GrahamH » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:33 am

Frank Allen made his by now biannual PR appearance on Today with Pat Kenny last week - you can hear it below at 1:44:44:

http://www.rte.ie/rams/radio/latest/Thu/rte-todaywithpatkenny-tpk.smil (12 mins)


So only Route A and this new route ‘Route F’ are on the table at this stage. It's now a matter of consultation with the 'stakeholders' to see which gets the green light according to Allen - traders who shout the loudest from the sound of things.
It is the opinion of the RPA that an adequate DART connection will happen via the Interconnector at St. Stephen's Green - I wonder could some trams travel direct to Connolly (DART) by switching lines at the Marlborough St-Abbey St junction too?

Whatever about the transport implications, I have to say I find this proposed interconnector is getting more and more ludicrous by the second as regards its impact on the urban environment. With this Route F not only is the jewel of College Green affected by cables and poles, as well as O'Connell Bridge, but now we have cables passing by the entire frontage of the GPO - inches in front of the portico! Not to mention cutting across the upper street at Cathal Brugha St, and the new bridge over the Liffey, itself laden with poles and overhead cables, in addition to the same on O'Connell Bridge (also passing O’Connell Monument), and the Loop Line already further down the river. The sole redeeming factor of this new route is that it limits the impact on Westmoreland Street, O’Connell Street, Bridge and Monument by one line – even if it just transposes the other elsewhere.

This just reeks of the very worst kind of impact on the urban environment - intrusive, untidy, cluttered and fundamentally ugly. For the scheme to be suddenly extended on this scale at such a late stage, significantly impacting on newly included heritage areas, when the potential for investigating powering the system in an alternative fashion is redundant, appears almost devious, as it is disrespectful to the built environment of the city.

From day one back in the 1990s there has been a constant underlying current of 'sure this is only Dublin, a dirty provincial west Brit city - it's not Venice you know, huh huh huh'. Essentially nobody cares about this issue at all - rather this link is being dealt with purely as a series of lines on a map and the investigation of technicalities of the project. It seems aesthetics don’t even enter the equation. Why aren’t renderings being drawn up, and the impact on the appearance of the city being given equal, or indeed any weight at all, relative to the logistics of getting passengers from A to B? Why were no visual impact boards on display at any of the public ‘consultations’, even just to allay concerns?

This is not just about choosing a convenient route for a tram, it’s also about a hugely important matter of respecting existing environments within the ‘monumental’ city core. What purpose does College Green serve only to provide an architectural heart for the entire city – it is the very essence of this space, as with most western cities in the 21st century with similar public areas. It has little other role – and in the context of removing vehicular traffic and horrendous levels of municipal clutter from the space, including large trees, it’s nothing short of baffling that a relatively minor public transport link is allowed hold such sway in its impact on this area with absolutely NO visual impact statement in public consultations.

Yes lines passed through here before blah blah, yes O’Connell Bridge was rebuilt as is to cater for trams, yes they ran right past the GPO blah blah, but this is irrelevant. As mentioned before, if it was proposed to run telephone cables through the city to the same extent, right past the principal buildings and urban spaces in the capital, there’d be absolute uproar. But because shiny silvery trams are being catered for, suddenly nobody gives a toss. In a modern, technologically advanced capital, it is simply not acceptable for the cityscape to be strung with cables – it’s one thing if a legacy issue, but to start afresh in the 21st century is nothing short of embarrassing. It is this above all that really frustrates me about this interconnector (which otherwise I do see the
full logic of implementing).

It is ironic that this link attempts to cater to a large, if minority extent, for tourists travelling from transport hubs to city centre hotels – the very people the city is being marketed at through its streetscapes and set-piece buildings that will be affected by these lines. Views of the Spire from Westmoreland Street would also be intruded on, as with the entire walk along western O’Connell Street and Bridge, and vastly worsened if Route A is chosen. Likewise regarding all the famous views of the BoI, Trinity and the House of Lords portico - all the points rasied before.

In a way it's quite startling the difference between here and Bordeaux, where uproar was raised at the prospect of cables passing the hôtel de ville, and yet in Dublin not only is there not so much as a whimper from the public over the same prospect on College Green and the wider city centre, not even the authorities have any concern over the matter, to the extent of not even feeling the need to draw up renderings!
Just out of interest jimg, given overhead wires generally don't concern you (not being smart here), how do you rate them relative to your rather vociferous objection to the proposed advertising hoardings about the city?
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Peter Fitz » Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:30 pm

I heard the Frank Allen interview too .... very dissapointing.

It seems they are set on ramming it through the central artery of the city where it will be forced to travel at a snails pace & negotiate several traffic signals, Both the aesthetics & functionality of this are dreadful.

The RPA seem to be tripping over themselves after this prize, as they've presented it, of running straight through the centre of the city ... 'great visibility for luas' brilliant alright, stationary trams will be on full view to the general public wizzing by on footpaths.

In my opinion, luas could skirt around the back of trinity as quickly - use of secondary street space where luas can be afforded priority is the only way to go. They still contend that both tracks will not 'fit' down marlborough street,

Besides all that, the actual necessity for & benefits from this link are questionable in the first instance.

I cannot believe that they will plough up O'Connell Street for this, what a mess. Not a murmur out of Kenny about the aesthetics of it either ... not surprising as he actually suggested routing it down Grafton Street :eek:

College Green needs an IAP now, even felling the trees would be something for now.

On the up-side, The red line is to be re-routed at the Red Cow, allowing it to pass through without stopping at lights, it also eliminates the tight bends. They've recently released the new configuration after much criticism of previous versions. Photomontage below:

Image
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby PVC King » Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:31 pm

Red Line Luas passengers up 25%

December 28, 2006 11:33
Luas passenger numbers increased this year from 22 million to 26 million, a jump of around 17%.

The Red Line, which runs from Tallaght to Connelly train station, saw passenger numbers rise 25% this year.

Public consultation has commenced on the proposed extension of the Green Line from Cherrywood to the Bray area, and the possible connection of the Green and Red lines is under consideration.


I agree with sentiments above and feel that there are other compelling arguments to take this process back to the drawing board. Firstly the effect of unjoined systems the two routes under consideration will probably have a common halt but from what I have seen will do nothing to further the figure of eight model that would allow interchangeability between routings and could if done right assist the creation of a flexible expandible system.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby jimg » Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:36 pm

GrahamH wrote:Just out of interest jimg, given overhead wires generally don't concern you (not being smart here), how do you rate them relative to your rather vociferous objection to the proposed advertising hoardings about the city?

Hi Graham, I was exaggerating a bit when I said the overhead wires are a non-issue for me. I can see the attraction in a third rail system for the centre but I know that cost/benefit analysis would not support it at the moment. Everyone will have personal views on the aesthetics of street clutter; for you the wires are a major problem. For me, the fact that the poles are properly vertical (unlike 80% of the traffic signs in the city), polished stainless steel (rather than mottled galvanized) and set in a regular pattern (rather than shoved into a gouged hole with a bucket of cement slopped in for support) means I find Luas clutter much less objectionable than the hundreds of superfluous street signs, badly planted trees, poorly placed telephone boxes, etc along the stretch in question. I find Luas fittings only slightly more intrusive than the new street lighting on O'Connell Street for example.

What worries me is that this new route F doesn't address any of flaws of route A but it manages to add plenty of new disadvantages. The worst for me will be a new bridge between O'Connell Bridge and Butt Bridge; this will destroy the relatively regular pattern of bridges in the city and will create an ugly cluster of bridges around Butt bridge.

Seing as all the other options have been removed from consideration, would you not agree that A is far preferable to this new mongrel route?
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Re: luas central corridor

Postby Seanselon » Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:13 pm

Morlan wrote:Image

Double-decker buses can travel under it... I don't see why the LUAS can't. Probably a safety issue for minimum clearance. I would't like to see Westland Row lowered, I think it would spoil the street somewhat.


Luas and its pantograph, and of course the overheads, would not fit safely underneath this bridge methinks.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Peter Fitz » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:57 pm

RPA selects the worst option (IMO!)


Agency recommends Luas lines be linked at O’Connell Street

The Sunday Business Post

The two Luas lines should be linked in a single loop that would run up O’Connell Street and down Marlborough Street, according to the agency that runs the Dublin tram system. The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) is in favour of a route linking the Sandyford and Tallaght lines along O’Connell Street in a loop that would run east along Cathal Brugha Street and south along Marlborough Street before crossing the Liffey over a new bridge. The agency wants a single track along the west side of O’Connell Street past the GPO, in a bid to reduce disruption in the city centre. A decision on the preferred route was taken at a meeting of the RPA board last week. Consultations are expected between the agency and the Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, in light of the board’s decision.



The RPA have opted for an elaborate loop that will run the green line up o'connell street, turn right on to cathal brugha, back down marlborough street & across a new bridge over the liffey.

So now Dawson, Grafton, College Green, Westmoreland, O'Connell & Marlborough streets are to be plouged up while a new one way bridge across the liffey is also to be constructed which given its impact on the river & the vista from o'connell bridge, could only be justified, in my view, if it saved the disruption to o'connell st & college green.

The benefits of this link up are questionable on so many levels, clearly no consideration has been given to the impact on the cities streetscapes or how effectively luas can function passing through the major arteries of this city.

This is the wrong decision.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby notjim » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:40 pm

Yes, I find this amazing, it seemed to me the central route and back of tcd up marlboro street routes both has strong arguements in their favour and this combination of the two has none of the advantages of either. It is completely perplexing.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:20 pm

Couldn't believe it when I read it on Sunday - a very strange route indeed - its like they decided "lets use the Luas to regenerate some streets - which ones?"
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby jimg » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:24 pm

I've been a strong supporter of the link up on grounds of utility but if this is the final decision, then I would actually oppose it. This combines all the WORST aspects of EVERY single option offered to the public:
  • A new bridge. :mad: :mad:
  • Wires not only on College Green/Westmoreland Street/O'Connell St but also on five other streets. Basically double the amount of poles and wires without any corresponding increase in coverage.
  • Disruption during construction not only on College Green/Westmoreland Street/O'Connell St but also on five other streets.
  • A circuitous route somewhat away from the central axis without ANY increase in rail integration (for example by linking with Pearse or Tara St.)
  • A configuration which will make it extremely difficult to continue the line to Phibsboro and Finglas as originally planned.
  • Even more interruption to other forms of public transport, cyclists and pedestrians travelling the length O'Connell St. as it has to cross from the West side of O'Connell St. to Cathal Brugha St. "Cutting off" the top of the street.
  • A confusing route for users - particular tourists with it's separated "one way" coverage of different streets.

How the hell can they justify this route? What is the rationale? Because it has a bit of everything?
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby GrahamH » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:01 am

Nothing more to add. What a disasterous decision, especially on the environmental front :mad:
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby PVC King » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:34 pm

GrahamH wrote:Nothing more to add. What a disasterous decision, especially on the environmental front :mad:


Any news on a timetable?

The clearest signal this sends out is that the timetable for metro is in serious trouble.

I really hope that this is an election stunt and that nothing is prepared before this can be seriously considered
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Morlan » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:25 pm

Image

My biggest concern is the proposed bridge across An Life. A cheapo Luas bridge will destroy the breezy view down the river from O'C bridge, and believe me, the bridge will be cheapo (see the Grand Canal bridge).

It'd be a damn shame to squander so much money on a bridge that will wreck part of the boardwalk when O'C bridge has plenty space for two tram tracks.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Peter Fitz » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:45 am

this is the thing, a bridge at that point + the associated wires etc is really unfortunate ... as i said the only way i think it could be justified is if it saved o'connell street & college green etc. and even at that a streamlined, well designed construction would be essential.

but no, its only a one way ... the worst possible solution :mad:
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Morlan » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:35 pm

One step closer to line BX being scrapped altogether?

€100m Luas link derailed

Friday September 28 2007

THE long overdue link-up between the two existing Luas lines has been further delayed to avoid digging up Dublin streets and crippling motorists and businesses for longer than absolutely necessary.

The €100m project to connect the Tallaght and Sandyford lines at O'Connell St, Dublin, will not start now until 2009 at the earliest , the same time as the €5bn Metro.

The link-up from St Stephen's Green to O'Connell Street will involve digging up much of the city centre around TCD and Westmoreland Street, while the Metro will roughly follow the same route underground.

Instead of digging up the streets for the Luas link-up, and later digging them up again for the Metro it is now expected that both projects will get underway at the same time.

The Railway Procurement Agency and Transport Minister Noel Dempsey yesterday unveiled two proposed routes for the new Luas line from Lucan to the the city centre.

The line will serve Ballyfermot, Liffey Valley and Lucan and is scheduled to be completed by 2013. It will carry up to 25m passengers every year, with a journey time of 42 minutes from Lucan to the city centre.

It will connect to the two existing lines, as well as the Irish Rail network and the proposed metro between the airport and the city centre.

The public is being asked to give its opinion on which route should be chosen, one of which is closer to Ballyfermot.

At a press conference to launch the Luas line, Frank Allen, chief executive of the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA), expressed disappointment that there had not been speedier progress on the city centre link-up.

"We had hoped to have achieved consensus on the route more quickly but that has not happened," he said.

A new Luas bridge across the River Liffey is being designed to carry trams as part of the new agreed route which runs up O'Connell St and back down Marlborough St before crossing the river.

It is now expected that the link-up and the Metro will start together to avoid digging up streets for one project and then repeating the exercise later.

Mr Dempsey said it was more important to get the project right than doing it fast.

"There is no point in having to dig up the city centre for five or seven years if you can do this in a shorter timescale," he added.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Morlan » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:38 pm

New Luas line set for launch

Thursday September 27 2007

A BRAND new Luas line from Lucan to Dublin city centre, capable of carrying 20 million passengers annually, will be unveiled today.

The F line is expected to be finished in 2013 and will serve Ballyfermot, Liffey Valley and Lucan.

It will open up a new tram corridor on the south inner city for areas that now have poor rail access.

The line will also connect to the existing Tallaght and Sandyford Luas lines, Irish rail commuter services and the proposed Metro North.


Image

http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Luas%20Line%20F%20Route%20Options%20Detailed%20Drawing.pdf
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby PTB » Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:22 pm

Oh sweet Jesus Christ.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Peter Fitz » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:18 pm

PTB wrote:Oh sweet Jesus Christ.


My thoughts exactly.

Suggestion. Instead of spending 500m+ on the Lucan Luas which will snake in to town in a nauseating 42 minutes, aka. 55 minutes; why not create 2 QBC feeder routes through Lucan to Adamstown & Fonthill Dart stations, put the staggering savings towards the interconnector & get comuters to Stephen's Green in half the time.

Never mind the added bonus of not ploughing up every shaggin main artery in this city.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Peter Fitz » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:49 pm

Image

You're talking little more than a mile from the centre of the housing sprawl above to either adamstown or fonthill.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby Devin » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:30 pm

Image

The first piece of track has been laid on the Luas Docklands extension - good.

But all the other Luas news is BAD. Last Friday there was a piece in the paper saying the city-centre link won’t commence work until 2009, the same time as Metro North, because it would be practical to start them both together. That’s bollocks! The Luas link needs to start NOW. Never mind this metro bollocks. It’s too expensive and there isn’t the density in Dublin to justify it. Get the overground rail sorted out first.

The motor car has free run of almost every street in the city centre and it makes for an appalling environment of extremely low comfort levels which is off-putting to visitors and reduces quality of life for locals. The motor car needs to be ruthlessly suppressed in Dublin and trams are the thing to do it. You only have to go to Bordeaux to see this, a city which is quite comparable to Dublin in size.
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Re: Luas Central - Which Route?

Postby SeamusOG » Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:04 pm

I hope the board will forgive me a bit of hubris in quoting one of my own posts.:o

It's simply that, in the light of recent discussions (here and elsewhere) about the possibility of the city centre LUAS link-up being scrapped, I see this as a way of solving potential conflicts between buses and trams in the area south of College Green.

Seamus O'G wrote:Perhaps someone could help out here, as I can't seem to copy the picture illustrating option E.

It's just that a thought occurred to me over the weekend about this possibility, which is comfortably the least favoured option on this forum.

And it's this. If the trams were to go South instead of North along Dawson Street, and North instead of South along Kildare Street, it might help to reduce the conflicts between the trams and buses in and around TCD. There could be a tram stop on the East side of Dawson Street (perhaps doubling with a station around the corner on the South side of Nassau Street), the West side of Kildare Street and the East side of Westmoreland Street; and bus stops on the West side of Dawson Street, the East side of Kildare Street, the North side of Nassau Street, Suffolk Street, the West side of Westmoreland Street, and College Street. In other words, all the bus stops which we currently have would remain, with the exception of the ones outside TCD on the bottom of Grafton Street.

What I'm trying to get at, this would reduce the amount of road space where buses and trams are actually sharing road space and also travelling in the same direction to perhaps a couple of hundred metres (between the bottom of Dawson Street and the stretch around the front of TCD), with the loss only of the stops at the front of TCD, the potential conflicts could be seriously reduced.

The same kind of thing could also be achieved by reversing the bus flows along Dawson Street and Kildare Street. With the current arrangements around St. Stephen's Green, that might even be more favourable.

Anybody get what I'm on about?


It does not, I fully agree, deal with the issue of College Green itself, or Westmoreland Street or O`Connell Street.

I see no alternative to banning private vehicles from College Green if buses and trams are to live together efficiently in this area. With the current arrangement where so many buses pass through College Green, this would simply have to happen.

However, with four lanes of traffic currently passing between TCD and the BOI at College Green, it should be possible to convert this little stretch into two lanes for trams and two lanes for buses. (Even if TCD had to cede a couple of feet).

I don't think the above arrangement would impinge on the plan to have the trams travel along Marlborough Street in one direction. I think that is a weird plan, but I don't think the above proposal would impinge on it to any great extent.

(And apologies to GrahamH as, if implemented, it would in all likelihood involve overhead wires being present in College Green).

College Green does seem to be the real snag point. And there's really only one solution for that, albeit one which users of private vehicles may see as a Domesday scenario. But if such a decision were to be taken, I'd suggest that the above solution about a variation on option E might be one which could make the link-up run quite efficiently as a whole.

Or is there some very obvious problem that I've missed?

Please help, as I quite like this one.:)
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