New Advertising in Dublin

Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby PVC King » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:35 pm

Haha

I take it you are not a member of the National then.

There is however a correlation between areas that saw road widening in the 1960's, errection of large numbers of social housing units and the busiest traffic arteries. In contrast similar areas in the more affluent areas tended to go into office use and have in latter times become conservation areas where such signage could only be considered totally inappropriate.

The market that JC Deceaux is after is purely based on traffic flows in such locations and pedestrian flows closer to the centre. Personally I would ben very happy to see some of these errected on locations like Cuffe St and the Median in Patrick St which regularly gridlock but are not a cycle or pedestrian friendly environment and only once the price is right and proper consultation has been undertaken to ensure that the areas these yokes go into are already a write off in aestetic terms.

What I don't like are all the locations I listed previously.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby PVC King » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:20 pm

Council swaps ad space for bikes, toilets
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 14th February, 2007


Dublin City Council is to allow one of the world's largest outdoor advertising companies to erect 120 permanent advertising panels across the city in exchange for 500 bicycles and four public toilets.

The bicycles are to be available for the public to rent, for a fee yet to be decided.

A multimillion euro contract signed with advertisers JC Decaux will see advertisement panels on O'Connell Street within six months. The council will receive no money from the advertising but in addition to the bicycles and toilets will get a number of signposts, freestanding maps and "heritage trail" posts.
Many of the advertising panels would be seven square metres (75sq ft) in size, but the majority would be two square metres. The smaller ones would be approximately the size of a bus shelter advertisement. Both structures would be freestanding, double-sided and illuminated.

The details of the contract have not been disclosed but it is estimated that the advertising space sold on the panels would be worth at least €1 million every year to JC Decaux.

Councillors reacted angrily to the scheme yesterday saying the city management was "selling the public footpath" and "almost prostituting itself" to the company.

The company has agreed to provide and maintain 500 "city bikes" at 25 locations around the city. People renting the bicycles would be able to collect them from and return them to any station. Users would have to register their details with the council and provide credit card details to prevent theft.

JC Decaux has run a similar scheme in Lyon in France.

The company plans to erect six of the two square metre panels on O'Connell Street and one on Grafton Street. The seven square metre panels will be located in areas such as Parnell Street, Capel Street and Church Street.

JC Decaux has applied to the council for planning permission for the sites for the 120 agreed structures. The company will pull out of the scheme if it does not get planning permission for 75 per cent of the panels. If it gets permission for less than 100 per cent of the panels, the number of "public realm enhancements" will be correspondingly reduced.

"We are selling the public footpath for 500 bikes and four public conveniences . . . Dublin City Council has been short-changed," Labour Cllr Emer Costello said at a meeting on the issue yesterday.

Deputy Lord Mayor Aodhán Ó Riordáin (Labour) said the council should be in a position to provide bicycles itself "instead of almost prostituting ourselves to private enterprise".

The profits earned by JC Decaux would be "gigantic", said Fine Gael's Paschal Donohoe.


However, Ciarán McNamara, an executive manager in the council's planning department, said the council was "doing extremely well" out of the contract. JC Decaux had agreed to remove a "sizable number" of its large advertising hoardings from the city as part of the deal, he said.


If 500 bikes cost €400 each and 4 toilets cost €50000 each then the public benefit provided by this scheme could be eclipsed by gross revenues earned in less than 53 days if international valuations for such signage are comparable.

A list of the signage to be removed must be made public and an undertaking from the council that other signage operators will be pursued rigerously must also be given.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby publicrealm » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:32 pm

[quote="PVC King"]
Councillors reacted angrily to the scheme yesterday saying the city management was "selling the public footpath" and "almost prostituting itself" to the company.
QUOTE]


Gasp!

How upsetting for the Councillors. And has somebody explained to them the concept of 'prostituting' oneself to a vested interest?

The poor innocents - they must be in need of counselling (or maybe they are just regretting a missed opportunity)?


(Judean People's Front - Official)
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby PVC King » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:42 pm

In fairness to DCC none of their councilors have to the best of my knowledge been named by a tribunal as having done anything corrupt.

How has the position varied from €90m below
From the Irish Times Saturday April 15 2006

Plan to halve number of large ad hoardings
Olivia Kelly

Dublin City Council proposes to halve the number of large advertising hoardings in the city under new plans to regulate outdoor advertising.

In return the company will provide a number of facilities, which the council calls "public realm enhancements", including the long-awaited citywide public bike rental scheme, in a contract that could be worth €90 million to the council.


shrunk to €400k of bikes and public toilets and a few signposts in the space of 10 months?

Where are the specifics on the hoardings to be removed?

Why isn't the full commercial potential being exploited from locations where there are no detrimental effects to urban amenity and used to fund the councils legal department to go after seriel planning law offenders?
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby lostexpectation » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:35 pm

its till very unclear if the bikes are directly connected to the new large signs?
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby hutton » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:09 pm

lostexpectation wrote:its till very unclear if the bikes are directly connected to the new large signs?


The advertising hoards have nothing to do with the location of the bikes. From todays independent:

It's city bikes for all - but they have to be recycled!

ON yer bike Dubs - but don't forget to leave them back.

The 500 public bicycles which are to be located around Dublin are "virtually vandal proof" according to the City Council, in what surely smacks of "famous last words".

Sceptics might fear that some less civic-minded Dubs may not be inclined to return the bikes, which will be emblazoned in Dublin colours.

There are fears the bicycles might suffer the same fate as that perennial urban unfortunate - the abandoned shopping trolley. However, each bike has an on-board computer to track its movement.

Their unique design ensures they cannot suffer punctures and there are no visible wires.

"The proposed Dublin City Bicycle is of a new generation and the result of over a decade of continuous and extensive investment," says the council.

The bikes are to be located at 25 key locations such as St Stephen's Green. They will be available 24 hours a day, seven days a week and will be branded with the Dublin City Council logo.

They are being introduced across the city by one of the world's largest outdoor advertising companies, JC Decaux, in exchange for permission to erect 120 permanent advertising billboards.

Over 60pc of the new advertising space will be dedicated to giving civic information to citizens and visitors to the capital.

Part of the deal involves the removal of 1,800 current billboards. The bicycles should be in place within the next six months, along with the new network of variable message electronic billboards.

Fine Gael Councillor Naoise O Muire said yesterday that criticism of the plan was unfair.

He said that the scheme had showed creativity and was a worthwhile step in the right direction.

Amsterdam pioneered the free bicycle system, but in Dublin there will be a small charge for their use.

Treacy Hogan

The usual hooray-for-everything, misleading piece by Hogan]does not [/U]involve the removal of 1,800 current billboards - but in fact only 25% of the billboards belonging to JCDecaux. There is going to be a lot more on this...
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby PVC King » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:28 pm

Image
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby hutton » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:05 pm

^^ Mmm Nice :rolleyes: Thats only one of the smaller ones btw - the so-called metro-poles are far larger + much more intrusive; in any event in Dublin the smaller ones are to be at ground level.

The more this saga goes on the worse it becomes -

Helpful place that the DCC website is, it provides the law as to how applications ought to be made when the LA is a direct beneficary:

"These are planning applications by internal departments in Dublin City Council, made under Part 8 of the Planning & Development Regulations 2001. Members of the public have 6 weeks from the date of lodgement of the application to make objections. There is no fee in this case. A recommendation is made by the Planning Department, and then listed on the Agenda for City Council meeting for approval by elected members, prior to commencement of development."

So remind me again - no Part 8 and no section 183 by councilors disposing of public lands???

The public have been shafted by a sham proceess.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby PVC King » Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:10 pm

The difference between what I have displayed and what is proposed as that what I have displayed is that in Dublin what is displayed above will be a ground level and be far more instrusive and quite literally dierectly in your face.

Unlike their predecessors i.e. Adshell ads; the nighttime view above is exactly what will be repeated all over central dublin in Architectural Conservation Areas and other locations. These are not considered a runner at ground location anywhere else.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby publicrealm » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:14 pm

hutton wrote:^^

The more this saga goes on the worse it becomes -

Helpful place that the DCC website is, it provides the law as to how applications ought to be made when the LA is a direct beneficary:

"These are planning applications by internal departments in Dublin City Council, made under Part 8 of the Planning & Development Regulations 2001. Members of the public have 6 weeks from the date of lodgement of the application to make objections. There is no fee in this case. A recommendation is made by the Planning Department, and then listed on the Agenda for City Council meeting for approval by elected members, prior to commencement of development."

So remind me again - no Part 8 and no section 183 by councilors disposing of public lands???

The public have been shafted by a sham proceess.


Hutton

The Part 8 procedure is intended for when the local authority carries out work (or has others carry it out on their behalf). The site notices would be erected by the local authority. I don't think that is the case here? Extract from Regs below:

Notice of proposed development.

81. (1) A local authority shall, in accordance with this article,—

(a) give notice of proposed development in an approved newspaper, and
(b) erect or fix a site notice or site notices on the land on which the proposed development would be
situated.



I give up on the 'disposal of public lands' issue.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby hutton » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:47 am

publicrealm wrote:Hutton

The Part 8 procedure is intended for when the local authority carries out work (or has others carry it out on their behalf). The site notices would be erected by the local authority. I don't think that is the case here? Extract from Regs below:

[I]Notice of proposed development.

81. (1) A local authority shall, in accordance with this article,—]


I give up on the 'disposal of public lands' issue.


Fair enough; but do you not think that its a basic that one cannot be judge and jury in their own court - which is exactly how the council have so far acted?

Lets try and tease it out a bit more. If I am right above then the move is unconstitutional. It is my understanding that there is the precedent with the Devaney Gardens PPP redevelopment; in that case, as should be with any PPP, the application went straight to An Bord.

Publicrealm (apptly named :D ), can you or anyone else throw some further light on this? Ta in advance. :)

ps publicrealm this was the link that gave me that interpretaion of part 8 as quoted above: http://www.dublincity.ie/sitetools/faq/faq_planning/planning_-_local_authority_works_laws_.asp ...or google it with this: What are Local Authority Works (LAWS)? #5762
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby publicrealm » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:57 am

hutton wrote:Fair enough]http://www.dublincity.ie/sitetools/faq/faq_planning/planning_-_local_authority_works_laws_.asp[/url] ...or google it with this: What are Local Authority Works (LAWS)? #5762


Well, I do understand the anxiety about the issue and I fully agree that the ,em, publicrealm, is already cluttered and uncontrolled. Certainly the pictures posted earlier are pretty awful - but I hope DCC would not permit such things in Dublin. Has anyone an image from the applications (sorry if one has been posted and I missed it :o ). I have tried DCC online but the documents have not yet been uploaded.

I honestly don't know if this is a PPP? If it is then I would expect that this should be explicitly stated in the applications. I expect it is more in the nature of the usual 'horse trading' that goes on - planning gain in exchange for favourable decisions. If it is a PPP then there would, in my view, be a case for DCC to answer.

Again I agree that multiple applications make it difficult to contest - but it would probably be impossible to lodge an omnibus application as it could not comply with the requirements of the Regulations (drawings, site location maps etc).

Re. what constitutes 'Local Authority Works' - this is set out in Part 8, Article 80 of the Regs; click on

http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/ ... part08.pdf

I will have a look at one of the files next week.:)
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby PVC King » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:03 pm

The more this is teased out the more details missing from the public domain mount up;

Is this a straight disposal of land?

Is it a PPP?

What images have been submitted on these applications;

Looking at the application for Lower O'Connell Street http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=1475/07&backURL=<a%20href=wphappcriteria.display>Search%20Criteria</a>%20>%20<a%20href='wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=492612%26StartIndex=141%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=wphappsresweek1%26BackURL=<a%20href=wphappcriteria.display>Search%20Criteria</a>'>Search%20Results</a> there is not a lot to on other than it will be over 8 feet tall and 4 feet wide.

We know that it will have a similiar visual appearance to:

Image

But more critically this will be at ground level. Such locations completely trample all over the O'Connell Street IAP and for this to be actively supported by the City Council's own planning department has been a shock to those of us who have a generally positive view of the DCC planning department.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby manifesta » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:13 pm

Memo from JCDecaux:

Substitute 'free bikes' for 'Trojan horse.' Watch what happens.
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One of the proposed 70...

Postby hutton » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:32 pm

manifesta wrote:Memo from JCDecaux:

Substitute 'free bikes' for 'Trojan horse.' Watch what happens.


:D


This is far nicer than what PVCKing shows :rolleyes:


"Fairview" - soon to be known as "Fuctview" if Ciaran MacNamara of DCC gets his way

Image

Image courtesy of one of the 120 JCD applications; strangely not available on DCC website - so I thought I'd help them out :)
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:55 pm

Now that's reaaaaaaaal purdy....
God that's intrusive and has to be a drivers distraction.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:10 pm

Paul Clerkin wrote:God that's intrusive and has to be a drivers distraction.

...which was the essence of the DTO's submission, as I've subsequently discovered (Any sign of that €100, PVC King? :D).
And that's before we get to the question of what they'll look like at night, internally illuminated.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby PVC King » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:33 pm

Could you post the link on that I would be interested to see the points that they make.

Re: Payment; which charity do you want me pay possibly you would like to buy 3 acres of endangered rain forrest through the World Land Trust or an appeal through An Taisce or is it the ctesiphon pension fund? :D
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:27 pm

I haven't got a copy to hand, nor is it online as far as I can tell. I'll see what I can do in the next couple of days.

I'd be happy to see it go to An Taisce. Or you could put it towards the running costs of the Archiseek masked ball? :D
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby Morlan » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:37 am

The last time I was last in the NL they had these type of ads on dual carriageway-type roads leading to the main commercial districts, and the ring road dualer around the city - they actualy look alright because they're on N11-type roads where it's predominantly through-traffic.

I could see these on some parts of the N11, but not where the DCC wants to put them. This type of advertising is not meant for Ireland.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby PVC King » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:59 am

I agree that these have a place once the local authorities are receiving a market price for them; I further agree that Dual carriageways are the place for them and would add further that only DCs that regularly gridlock.

I think that the DTO resource http://www.dublintraffic.com/ is a good guide for this and it is necessary that all stakeholders are consulted on site locations prior to application.

A masked ball would be good there were very preliminary discussions on an event 2 years ago but unfortunately the idea got parked up and has been gridlocked since.

If you chosen charity is An Taisce I'd better make it €105 which is cheap given the statements made about the DTO who probably would want a bit more. :D
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby newgrange » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:42 pm

Given their locations, many of these are also nicely placed to block the view of oncoming buses for people at the bus stop, or of the people for the bus drivers.

Cue many forays into traffic to check for bus numbers. They are only locals though, who do not drive, so who cares?

I'm reminded of these things any time I see an old cartoon of people driving, where all there is in the background are large, repeated advertising slogans, flying past in a blur, a la 'Fahrenheit 451'.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby newgrange » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:28 am

Here we go:
http://www.dublincity.ie/Images/Appendices%201-5%20reduced_tcm35-48977.pdf

Like the photographer who took those lovely pictures of a certain SF Euro candidate, whoever produced this leaflet is one to watch in the 'make silk purse out of sow's ear' category.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby publicrealm » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:21 pm

newgrange wrote:Here we go:
http://www.dublincity.ie/Images/Appendices%201-5%20reduced_tcm35-48977.pdf

Like the photographer who took those lovely pictures of a certain SF Euro candidate, whoever produced this leaflet is one to watch in the 'make silk purse out of sow's ear' category.



Thanks for the link.

We have designed our bicycle to withstand weather extremes and to be virtually vandal-proof.

I hope this isn't seen as a challenge - I'm willing to bet, for example, that the bikes won't float. Hope I'm wrong and that they will be a success but ??:(
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:31 pm


I note that the document you linked is only two appendices to the main one- do you have the main one to hand? I've tried the DCC website, but as any regular user of the site knows, there's a needle-in-a-haystack quality to using it. I'll keep looking, but if you had it to hand that'd be great. Thanks for the above too, btw.
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