New Advertising in Dublin

Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby alonso » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:31 pm

[quote="PVC King"]The DTO were neutered after they objected to the Liffey Valley extension in 2000]

I don't know what happened re Liffey Valley, but the DTO are part of the group now looking at Liffey Valley and they submit observations on many many planning applications and development plans all the time. Recently they've been vocal on IKEA, Greystones Harbour, Lansdowne Road, T2, the Arnott;s redevelopment etc etc. However they don't take appeals a la An Taisce as you say.

No "latest transport quango" has been appointed yet. If it;s the DTA you're referring to, if that is set up pre-election I will donate 5 million cyber euros* to your good self. The DTO never ever had any authority. They are a co-ordinating and monitoring organisation. visit http://www.dto.ie and see what they get up to. And this monitoring role is connected to all planning applications in the Dublin Region. I don't know whether they'll submit on these or not, as they tend to keep to the massive developments.

*not real
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby hutton » Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:25 pm

alonso wrote: 5 million cyber euros*


:D

Further developments on this - it got a reasonably good airing on liveline yesterday]http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/[/url]

Aside from that the Evening Herald also had a piece the day before yesterday, by a Kevin Doyle on top of page 11. Suffice to say, unless I am mistaken, basic information was wrong such as "If city planners do approve the boards, it will cost an individual €1400 to object to an individual sign or €98000 to object to all 70" :confused: :rolleyes: .

Cllr Andrew Montague stated "This council has very little ways of raising money other than raising rates, which we dont want to do" adding "this is a good way to raise money".

No Cllr Montague this is not a good way to rasie money, as DCC will have a lot less cash if there is a rate strike arising from this.


City Manager John Tierney said: "Irrespective of where we put these signs there is going to be a level of concern or dispute as to why its that location." - which pretty much to me dodges the question and says "lump yez".

Show us the criteria used for site location Mr Tierney. :mad:

Where's the Irish Times in covering this???

Signed off by OC of the Popular Front of Judea
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby PVC King » Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:56 pm

Locations include

The public footpath at the junction of Andrew Street, Church Lane and Suffolk Street, Dublin 2 in front of the 'Dublin Tourism Centre', Suffolk Street.

Western side of the public footpath of Rathmines Road. The unit will be posistioned in the median opposite no. 302, (Boots) Rathmines Road Lower, Dublin 6.

The footpath on the eastern side of Camden Street Lower, Dublin 2 in front of nos. 1-3 Camden Street Lower

On the western side of Liffey Street Upper, on the public footpath outside 'Outdoor Adventure Store' 34/35, Liffey Street Upper, Dublin 1

The public footpath on the northern side of Abbey Street Middle outside Independant House, Dublin 1.

The public footpath on the Western side of O'connell Street Lower, Dublin 1, immediately to the south of the junction with Abbey Street Middle and to the front of nos. 46 - 48 ('Supermacs and Schuh')

Eastern side of the public footpath on O'Connell Street Upper, adjacent number 10 (Burger King / Pulan Pinang) and number 11A (Peter Mark), O'connell Street Upper, Dublin 1

The public footpath on the southern side of Abbey Street Lower adjacent to the Abbey Theatre Dublin 1.

The footpath at the junction of William Street South, Stephen Street Lower and Johnson Place, Dublin 2. The unit will be positioned on the public footpath in front of no 38, William Street South (South William Street Pharmacy) and west of Clarendon Market

The footpath on the northern side of King Street South, Dublin 2, immediately to the east of the junction with Clarendon Row, opposite St Stephens Green Shopping Centre and to the south of the site of the Former Eircom Building.

throughfare at junction of Henry Street & Moore Street, Dublin 1 adjacent to no's 43-42 Henry Street (Evans)

Eastern side of footpath outside, 23 O' Connell Street Upper (Gresham Hotel), South Of The Junction Of O'Connell Street Upper And Cathal Brugha Street, Dublin 1

The public footpath on the western side of Westmoreland Street, Dublin 2. The site is located adjacent to Nos. 1- 3, Westmoreland Street and the bank of Ireland to the west

The public thoroughfare at the eastern end of King Street South, Dublin 2 near the junction with Grafton Street and St Stephens Green. The site is located adjacent to 'Bus Stop Newsagents' to the North

Public Thoroughfare on eastern side, Of Grafton Street To Front Of 40 Grafton Street, Dublin 2

Public Footpath on eastern side of, O' Connell Street Lower, Outside 9 O' Connell Street Lower (Quinn Direct Insurance), Dublin 1

Public footpath on western side, Of O ' Connell Street Upper, Outside 62 O ' Connell Street Upper (McDonalds), Dublin 1

Eastern side of Liffey Street Upper, Arnotts Department Store At Junction Of, Liffey Street Upper And Proby's Lane, Dublin 1

throughfare on northern side of Henry Street, adjacent to the entrance of Roches Stores & opposite Henry Street entrance to Arnotts Dublin 1

public throughfare on northern side of Henry Street adjacent to Marys Mall entrance to Ilac Centre opposite 31-32 Henry Street, Dublin 1

On the public footpath on the northern side of Beresford Place, Immediately adjacent Block 2 (OPW Valuations Office), Irish Life Centre, Beresford Place, Dublin 1 at the Junction with Abbey Street Lower.

Western side of public footpath on, O' Connell Street Upper, Adjacent Former Carlton Cinema Site 50/51 O'Connell Street Upper, Dublin 1

Southern side of Blackberry Lane, Junction Of Blackberry Lane And Lwr Ratmines Road, Upositioned On Public Footpath Outside 41A Blackberry Lane, Lower Rathmines Road, Dublin 6

Public footpath on western side of area, Of Public Open Space Known As Smithfield Plaza, Immediately South Of Junction Of Blackhall Walk And Smithfield, Dublin 7


The Product

Permission for the erection of an advertising display unit on the site. The precise location of the unit is marked by an x in a circle directly onto the pavement in red paint. The overall area of the site is 0.295 m2. The development will consist of an internally illuminated, double sided, advertising display unit which shall display civic information or an advertisement. The display panels shall be scrolling or static. The structure has an overall height of 2.596 metres and a width of 1.438 metres. The area of each of the display panels is 1.98m2.



Glorified metropoles at street level
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby phil » Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:20 pm

hutton wrote:
Where's the Irish Times in covering this???



This question reminded me of the coverage given to the loopline ad coming down. Whilst this article may have been posted before I thought it might be useful to recap on where this whole thing has come from:

[quote]From the Irish Times Saturday April 15 2006

Plan to halve number of large ad hoardings
Olivia Kelly

Dublin City Council proposes to halve the number of large advertising hoardings in the city under new plans to regulate outdoor advertising.

The council is in the process of negotiating the contract for control of all future public space advertising with one of the world's largest outdoor advertising companies, JC Decaux.

In return the company will provide a number of facilities, which the council calls "public realm enhancements", including the long-awaited citywide public bike rental scheme, in a contract that could be worth €]
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby StephenC » Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:41 pm

Yes! I knew I saw this somewhere - good work Phil. The whole point was to reduce all those nasty hoardings on the gables of buildings.

Hmm it sounds to me that the City need to undertake a bit of a public relations exercise. Not all of what is proposed here is bad but the way the scheme has been rolled out casing concern. I think they should have a public consulation and invite comments. For example will the provision of new signage replace all the crap thats there now, cant the City set up a trial bike stand to show what it will be like, and how about publishing an proper analysis of where all the metropoles will go so that we can at least see some proper planning of the scheme.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby manifesta » Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:36 pm

Surely it’s an improvement to see the giant hoardings go, but where’s the benefit in replacing them with a horde of little hoardings? Crap is still crap. Whether it’s one heap of 18 sq m crap or crap parceled out into 70 bitty .295 sq m pieces, I still don’t want it. If anything, dividing up the scheme as such only spreads the rubbish around. Great—instead of a heap of it all at once, we get the equivalent of Mars wrappers and crisp bags and Red Bull cans scattered throughout the city—where it won’t be so obtrusive!

OK JCD, try out the bike stands, go on and put up a silly ad or two if you must (ads or 'civic information' are the listed possibilities for 'the product'... I wonder which will win out?), then leave the streets and public spaces alone. Please?

PS Unless by 'heritage trail plaques' you mean more cheap record albums plastered on walls around the city: 'Bono bought sunglasses here in 1982.' Because I think those would be really useful.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby PVC King » Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:55 pm

Call me innocent if you will but this type of company have been serial planning offenders for decades and their reward for saying that they will consider removing 50% of their illegal signs in mostly suburban locations is to allow them to errect 70 metropoles in key City Centre locations such as directly in front of the main tourist office in the city.

The majority of locations where metropoles are used elsewhere is generally in the carparks of retail parks and out of town shopping centres; they are also used on ring roads in places like Leeds and Birmingham where such fittings are of a specification that can survive a brick at 70mph the latest ones are also bullet proof. The entire idea of the signs being double sided with the local authority receiving one side is often a red herring as the council always gets the contraflow direction in such situations.

What are used in some cities to a good effect are the circular fittings that look like double height postboxes.

Zero tolerance is just not an Irish concept.
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Quote of the week.

Postby hutton » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:18 am

"the 48-sheets will disappear; they're not a suitable type of advertising for the city and they're not even very effective,"

DCC's Ciaran McNamara comments on how existing ineffective sites will be superceded by better provision for the advertising industry.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby hutton » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:52 am

The last couple of posts have been fairly informative and helpful - good work there PVC and Phil for further informing the debate.

A couple of anomilies seem too be appearing - Councillor Daithi Doolan yesterday said the city would benefit to the tune of €50 million - yet the Times article from last April gives €90 million as the figure. Very odd indeed :confused:

PVC King wrote: the latest ones are also bullet proof.


Oh good, I'll get an opportunity to try out my new RPG so :D

StephenC wrote:The whole point was to reduce all those nasty hoardings


I am afraid Im not convinced that this neccessarily is the case - existing billboards would go first and DCC would make sure to let us know of this...Instead of which it appears that the Lord Mayor was not aware of current scheme until this week. :eek:

Separately I am getting the impression that the business community is not neccessaarily unanimous in backing this either.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby ctesiphon » Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:29 pm

hutton wrote:410 quid per notice????

*heads off to print out cards advertising such service + sets up shop*

Thats some wheeze! :D


I meant to say something about this the other day, but it slipped my mind. It's a bit off topic, but relevant to planning in general (and probably not worth a thread of its own).

Rather than being a 'wheeze', the service provided by such companies is of benefit to many involved in the planning process, whether architect, planner or developer (and the basic cost seems to be €135 for simple erection and removal, not €410). Site notice sabotage is a very real feature of planning, usually - but not always - in the more controversial or larger scale schemes. Most planners and a good number of architects that I know have had to re-submit applications because some local thought he could thwart the application by removing / vandalising a site notice (a bit like thinking the metropoles can be thwarted by arguing over land ownership, perhaps?;) ).

In addition, a simple calculation of the full costs of erecting a site notice might give a bigger answer than you'd expect- printing, laminating, other materials, mounting, visiting the site to erect the notice etc. Calculated at the hourly rate for an architect or planning consultant, it quickly adds up, and is hardly the best use of resources in an office. And that's before you factor in the possibility of re-visiting the site to re-erect a notice, possibly more than once.

I don't think the service is aimed at Mr and Mrs Byrne from Rialto who are building a 42 sq.m. kitchen extension. Any time I've used a service such as this, it's been for larger scale projects. When we're talking about multi-million euro projects for which the application fee alone is €38,000, a few hundred quid extra to safeguard the passage of the project must seem like a sound investment to a developer. Compare it to the additional interest that would be charged on a bank loan for development should a notice be sabotaged, and/or to the additional office costs incurred in preparing a re-submission, and it seems like a no brainer to me.

Anyway, I don't want to be seen to be flag-waving for these providers. I'm just pointing out that it's not the 'wheeze' it might first appear to be. Good luck to them, I say. Or to anyone else who might fancy their chances, for that matter- I look forward to seeing the 'Bespoke site notices by Hutton, Esq.' ad on a banner above any day now!:D
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby phil » Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:46 pm

ctesiphon wrote: Most planners and a good number of architects that I know have had to re-submit applications because some local thought he could thwart the application by removing / vandalising a site notice



Maybe it is just an effort to stop their own workers from thinking that they are just more fly-posters and ripping them down ;)
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby StephenC » Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:46 pm

test
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby hutton » Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:02 pm

ctesiphon wrote:I look forward to seeing the 'Bespoke site notices by Hutton, Esq.'


:D

Great minds think alike I tell you CTEsiphon!

[quote="ctesiphon"]the basic cost seems to be €]

Darn, initially I thought it might be 410 per week - and now its down to 135 in total. :(

Not to worry, its got me thinking - and sure why think small; bigger signage seems to generate bigger profits and bigger leverage so I'm now thinking of "Hutton Hoardings" :)

Helpful information has been sent my way in this regard by a pal. It relates to the economics of type of adverts that are being proposed for the city;

" the prevailing rates in comparable places like Leeds or Glasgow are gauranteed payments of £500-1,500 for non-illuminated to £3000 - £7500 for LED stg per fitting per year. Revenue is then split at 50% of net profit once servicing and sales costs are deducted. Revenues are generally double the gaurantees so a well positioned LED Fitting would probably generate €22,500 p.a....All similar proposals for the more attractive cities in the UK such as York, London, Bath, Edinburgh have been shot down."

Fortunately Dublin now has a more enlightened policy that will facilitate such enterprises. However I am still trying to work out the exact economics - for example when first published in the I Times last April, the JCdecaux deal was worth €90 million to the city - yet this seems to have since halved to €50 million as quoted by Cllr Daithi Doolan on liveline. He should know - he is the chair of the councils Environment SPC, but then so too should the newspaper. :confused:

All quite intriguing and requiring further research before the new venture is launched... Onward "Hutton Hoardings"!
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby GrahamH » Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:04 pm

:)

Just to clarify about Site Notices Ireland, it wasn't the intention to snub them. They do offer a great service, especially for heavily trafficked areas, or for notices erected in the middle of the public domain like these advert ones are. And the display product they offer is robust and of good quality. As mentioned above, they also can prove invaluable to architects and developers - I imagine especially where updated apps are constantly being erected on large sites.

The basic weekly monitoring product (over the five weeks) as previously stated is still €410 - but yes, erection alone is €135.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby ctesiphon » Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:05 pm

Understood, Graham. It was more to hutton's jokey 'wheeze' comment that my post was addressed. I just thought it was worth giving a brief, objective comment.

And also, to clarify- I wasn't commenting on any single company, more the concept of such a service which, as you say, in many cases is invaluable.

Anyway... back to the issue at hand. As you were, folks. :)
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby hutton » Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:12 pm

Another day passes and where is the Irish Times in covering this, one of the most contentious planning issues in Dublin in recent years? Ah sure its only the capital city, and mostly on the northside :rolleyes:

Maybe it doesnt really happen for the IT if its not happening in Dun Laoghaire or Greystones... Or then again maybe it might ruffle a few feathers to actually analise what the city's custodians are up to

Irish Times where are you in covering city issues???
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JCDecaux Paris bike scheme halted over 'irregularities' in tendering process

Postby hutton » Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:21 pm

From: http://www.bikebiz.com/14000-free-bike-contract-for-Paris-is-halted


An administrative court in Paris has suspended last week's award of a bicycle-rental contract to outdoor advertising specialist JCDecaux. Rival bidder Clear Channel Communications of the US had filed a lawsuit, claiming 'irregularities' in the tendering process.

16:45, Feb 8th by Carlton Reid

JCDecaux's Somupi unit was to establish a free bicycle hire service with 14,100 bikes in place by the summer.
Clear Channel Outdoor Holdings Inc had formed a consortium with Electricite de France, France Telecom and Vinci Park.
JCDecaux operate Lyon's successful Cyclocity rental scheme, a cycle hire service originally called Vélo’V and started in May 2005.
The Cyclocity bikes were ridden almost 12 million kms in 2006 - that's 5,000 kms per bicycle. There were 5.5 million rentals during the year, an average of 15,000 rentals per day with peaks that exceeded 30,000 during exceptional events such as Lyon's Festival of Music. Cyclocity schemes are also operated in Marseille, Aix en-Provence and Brussels.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby jimg » Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:28 pm

Wow. I've been out of the country for the last two weeks and didn't have time to check archiseek while away. I was almost expecting this thread to just wither away. What a change - I'm delighted! :)

I'm so relieved that this issue is receiving the critical attention that it deserves - not only here but politically and in the broader media.

Talk is relatively cheap - it's easy to post moany messages on internet message boards; I'm a master at it. I've great admiration for the others who've made the far more significant effort to take this issue to the people who count like politicians and media workers. I just hope this horrible proposal will be defeated but at least the situation certainly looks a bit more optimistic than it did when I was packing my bags 15 days ago!
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby StephenC » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:37 pm

I have actually had a chance to look at the whole package of street furniture that JCD are installing. There are bike stations, public conveniences (surely long over due in the city), street signage and maps (more or less the same as the stuff recently put in around docklands, high quality, colourful and also much needed), a heritage trail (also good stuff) and finally these advertising structure which actually do not look half bad, the smaller units especially. There are problems with the scheme not least the complete lack of information and public display being offered by DCC however the 'family' of street furniture (as they call it) is really quite attractive and very functional and I think would transform the streets. Its very important however that for what goes up, stuff comes down. This means billboard and assorted street junk. But most of all this needs an urgent PR exercise to salavage what could potentially be a very good things for the city.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby newgrange » Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:00 pm

I will eat my hat if they site 'bicycle stations' in Sheriff Street and Summerhill.

These things do nothing more than make an advertising trail for the car owning middle classes that rips its way through areas where people actually live.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby StephenC » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:10 pm

How original - a middle class vs working class slant to the whole debate. Its true I have never seen a working class person (from Sheriff Street by the sounds of your post) driving a car - how novel would that be. And of course most working class people are also immune to advertising.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby newgrange » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:09 pm

StephenC wrote:How original - a middle class vs working class slant to the whole debate.


You think the siting of these things is an accident?

Why do you think the Howth road in its entirety was overlooked?
A lovely road, ideal for bicycles I would have thought. Nice footpaths too.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby publicrealm » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:20 pm

StephenC wrote:How original - a middle class vs working class slant to the whole debate. Its true I have never seen a working class person (from Sheriff Street by the sounds of your post) driving a car - how novel would that be. And of course most working class people are also immune to advertising.


In fairness - one does occasionally find oneself driving through these areas en route to the Yacht club.

A 'kerchief soaked in cologne is a reliable remedy in my experience.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby AndrewP » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:03 am

I confess I haven't seen the whole "package". I've only seen the planning notices for the metropoles on the Swords Road, along with misleading tiny x's on the footpath, which show the location of the ads, but not the extent to which they will jut across the pavement. I suspect few people realise they will have to walk , jog, drag their shopping or push their prams around these things as well as look at them sticking out at alarming right angles to the road.
If the package included bike stations in the same locations, you would at least feel there was an attempt at a quid pro quo to the local community. But where are these free bikes going to be? Killiney? Blackrock? Putting the shite on the northside and the trade-off on the southside should not be allowed in this day and age.
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Re: You thought Dublin's streets were cluttered already?

Postby KerryBog2 » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:34 pm

publicrealm wrote:In fairness - one does occasionally find oneself driving through these areas en route to the Yacht club.


Well-known Dun Laoghaire yottie approaches Howth YC for a post Regatta drink.
Security man on door - "Are yous members here?"
Dun Laoghaire yottie - "Certainly not!"
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