Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby tintoretto » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:29 pm

StephenC wrote:[...]Pointing out that the traditional Irish housing pattern based on the townland (baile fearann) stretching back thousands of years which is uniquely different from England and mainland Europe, has become almost entirely dominated by an English planning philosophy, the spokesman said that the IRDA are determined to see control of planning policy brought back to elected Irish politicians.Until recently, Town Planners educated in Ireland graduated without any rural qualification. Available journals and planning literature are predominately English. Most graduates are accredited by the Royal Town Planning Institute (RTPI) in London. In addition, many Irish planners received their education in colleges in England.
[...]


Anyone for the IRDA Liam Lawlor Memorial Institute of Irish Planning? Application forms available here.
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby FIN » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:06 am

i thought that was quite good. recently i did a house for my sister and her husband. and no it wasn't in the countryside. in a town, behind his mothers house. i got an F.I. and responded to it. they turned it down on 3 completely different reasons. one being that no development in backlands of existing streetscapes. now, they won't let you build ina town or in the countryside. they are trying to force everyone to live in estates. this needs to change and i agree ( i will brit bash) that needs to be stopped. " we don't consider ireland to be abroad" ... does this not boil your blood.. who am i talking to...sure most of you would love that...and for that matter why is it still the royal institute of architects and while i'm here the royal national lifeboat association or any other royal institute...either we are a seperate country or not. my mother used to say " that the country is in such a ruin that we should hand it back to the queen and apologies for the state we left it in " ... now obviously i was agast but it seems we never really got away from the queen in certain respects and with the way our main streets ( high streets is such a jaffa term ) are going we are handing it back inch by inch.if we are not careful they will start claiming it back

rant over - phew... jaysus i'm tired...

back to sense... while it is curropt, and it is very curropt ( i can never remember how to spell that but i don't care ) we are never going to progress unless we stand on our own two feet and not try to copy everything they do.
someone said that there is a "not in my back yard" attitude. and yes there is for major infrastructure planning. i welcomed the governments fast track system for these jobs but it still can be held up by one objector costing us all a lot of money.
while i am in favour of one off housing i am not in favour of these shite that are blighting the countryside. in my perfect world they would all be architect's designed and fit in perfectly with the landscape adding to the viewing pleasure of our visitors from the east down to our quaint part of the country spending their pounds ( oops sorry euros ) and of course designed by me :) sorry couldn't help that one. if there weren't the box houses ( ikea probably are developing a kit house there are so many alike ) then it wouldn't be half the battle to get one. the economic arguments are nonsense. you don't pay for the one - off's but you will never change your minds so i won't even bother trying to again. the irda as an institutation is probably a good idea but it would have to have architectural and planners representation and dare i say it an taisce as well. then we would all be able to work together which would be nice for a change. we would have to leave the politicians out of it as they are just bull-shitters and would waste precious time.
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby paulisadick » Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:16 pm

Paul Clerkin wrote:Well they live out in the country, so I assume they're doing country things like miling the cows, collecting money from the EU, whinging, and selling off their fields for one-off haciendas


Your one to talk about whinging! I'd say you've milked a fair few cows in your time!
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby Frank Taylor » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:13 pm

The PDs have launched a policy document on one-off housing:
http://www.progressivedemocrats.ie/uploads/images/Planning_For_A_Rural_Future.doc
which recommends further easing of planning restrictions on one-off housing and goes so far as to suggest that
, in areas which are experiencing population decline, we would like to see incentives created for people to move into these areas rather than the barriers that currently exist
in other words that the government should pay people to live outside towns and villages. Before the relaxation of housing guidelines in 2005, 80% of one off housing applications were already being approved. After the sustainable rural housing guidelines policy, that figure increased to 90%.

I think we are moving towards a situation where, as in FIN's case, it has become far more difficult to get permission for urban housing in towns and villages than it is to get permission for suburban or one-off housing. We are operating a system where the more energy your lifestyle uses, the easier it is to get permission to build a house.

The number of people who disagree with this policy seems to be dwindling down to a few tree-hugging nutcases. I am a meat-eating capitalist and I am disgusted that the only party left that I can vote for is the greens.
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:10 pm

No coincidence that Tom Parlon launched this document at the National Ploughing Championships.

I'm sickened, but not remotely surprised, by this cheap, opportunistic electioneering. My reasons are the usual ones trotted out in these debates, not worth rehearsing here as they've been elaborated on at length in many other threads here already. One thing I think is worth highlighting, though, is the following quote from an article in Saturday's Irish Times:

"Mr Parlon said rural dwellers should have the same rights as urban dwellers when it comes to deciding where to live."

If anyone wants or needs me to comment on the plain stupidity and offensiveness of that statement, let me know and I'll gladly oblige, but I think it should be clear to anyone with even half a brain.

EDIT: Having just downloaded it, I've a quick question- why is it in Word? Makes it look cheap, thrown together and unprofessional.
Have they never heard of PDFs? Or maybe they've only ever encountered the letters PDF as an abbreviated insult?
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby schuhart » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:04 pm

ctesiphon wrote:"Mr Parlon said rural dwellers should have the same rights as urban dwellers when it comes to deciding where to live."
Its like we live with two parallel dialogues which never meet. How do the local authorities square the world view represented by Parlon's statement with their denial that Irish planning is a case study in how not to do it?
Councils reject EU criticism of poor planning policies
04/10/2006 - 13:09:32
The organisation representing local authorities around the country has rejected criticism of Irish planning policies from the EU's environmental body.

Reports this morning say the European Environment Agency has cited Ireland as the "worst-case scenario" when it comes to urban planning.

The criticism is reportedly contained in an assessment due to be published later this month to show new EU member states how not to approach the issue of planning.

It highlights vast urban sprawl in Dublin, as well as in villages and towns across the entire country.

However, the Association of City and County Councils has rejected the EEA's criticism today, saying its members were only rezoning land to meet local housing needs and people seeking to move out of built-up areas were frequently being denied planning permission in rural areas.
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby KerryBog2 » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:52 pm

ctesiphon wrote:Have they never heard of PDFs? Or maybe they've only ever encountered the letters PDF as an abbreviated insult?


They're immune to that stuff. You don'y want to know what PD means in French!;)
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:03 pm

When I was on a language exchange in my teens in Angers in France, the kids in the family were all highly amused by some of the books I had brought with me- they were written by P.D. James, who will forever more be known to me as Payday Jems.

The French 'version' of PD has often brought a smile to my face when the Irish PDs get mentioned. Amazing what kids can teach you.
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby Lobby » Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:53 pm

Frank Taylor wrote:The PDs have launched a policy document on one-off housing:
http://www.progressivedemocrats.ie/uploads/images/Planning_For_A_Rural_Future.doc
which recommends further easing of planning restrictions on one-off housing and goes so far as to suggest that
in other words that the government should pay people to live outside towns and villages. Before the relaxation of housing guidelines in 2005, 80% of one off housing applications were already being approved. After the sustainable rural housing guidelines policy, that figure increased to 90%.

I think we are moving towards a situation where, as in FIN's case, it has become far more difficult to get permission for urban housing in towns and villages than it is to get permission for suburban or one-off housing. We are operating a system where the more energy your lifestyle uses, the easier it is to get permission to build a house.

The number of people who disagree with this policy seems to be dwindling down to a few tree-hugging nutcases. I am a meat-eating capitalist and I am disgusted that the only party left that I can vote for is the greens.


Frank, I'm not sure where you get the 85% and 90% figures you quote above because the number of PP grants is certainly nowhere near this amount. Maybe you're forgetting that most people pre-validate themselves with the planners before going to the trouble of applying formally. So those that haven't a hope have already been 'weeded out'.

I would love to see a study of the number of council employees who successfully apply versus those in the general public......anecdotally, I would expect a difference!
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby Frank Taylor » Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:25 pm

The 80% figure is from Éamon Ó Cuív speech to IRDA 2003
http://www.pobail.ie/en/MinistersSpeeches/2003/October/htmltext,3857,en.html
A figure of 85% was issued by the D0E in 2004
see this debate in the senate:
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0175/S.0175.200403100006.html

It's true that the pre-planning discussions cut down the rejection rate. No matter what way you look at it though, we are seeing over 30,000 new one-off houses being built each year in Ireland.
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby ctesiphon » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:52 pm

"Mammy! Mammy! The bold boys from Dublin are being mean to me! They keep trying to tell me that we're ruining the country with our unsustainable lifestyles and our individualistic greed. They think they understand our way of life, but they don't. They don't! This is how our people, and our people's people, and our people's people's people and our..."

"Okay Seánie, I know what you're getting at."

"...and our people's people's people's people's people's people (is that 5,000 yet?) have lived since the dawn of civilisation. This is who we are! Can't those jackeens see that? What should I do? It's so unfair!"

"Why don't you ask your cousin Liamy up in Mayo to write an ill-informed, put-upon, chip-on-the-shoulder article trotting out all the usual jaundiced, nonsensical stereotypes about 'smart ass city slickers', 'west Brits' and the 'colonial' mentality? He's very good with that sort of thing, y'know. And when you're finished, be sure to take that pig outside so daddy can get his SUV in beside the fire."

"I will, mammy. I will! This'll show them la-di-da types from Dublin who's boss, so it will so it will. Begosh and begorrah."

*tugs forelock*

*********

You often lament the lack of mention for archiseek.com in the meeja, Paul, but I'm not sure that this is what you had in mind: http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=312&Itemid=38

Planning for slick rural dwellers Wednesday, 06 September 2006

Liamy MacNally on the matters of fact and the facts of the matter

Planning for slick rural dwellers

There is nothing worse than smart ass city slickers who pride themselves in taking a swipe at people from outside the Pale. Apart from the obvious and most welcome lesson that was meted out to some of our city brethren on the hallowed grounds of Croke Park recently, city slickers often adopt a superior attitude towards those of us from outside the metropolitan 50 kilometres per hour speed limit. It is even more nauseating when the slickers meet on-line and hide behind the skirts of discussion fora to launch verbal scuds on people outside the capital. These egg-in-the-mouth scripts smack of the West Brit nonsense so familiar to a certain breed of misnamed professional.
Check out the discussion board of archiseek.com Irish website relating to the Irish Rural Dwellers’ Association. The pages are graced with the repulsive scripts that belong to a colonial past, long dead but obviously, still hankered after by a few withered brains masquerading as architectural intellects. The reason for the architectural verbal outrage stemmed from a query for a contact number for the Irish Rural Dwellers’ Association.

The IRDA
The Irish Rural Dwellers’ Association was set up in 2002 with national membership and is based in Co Clare. Its main aim is: “To unite all rural dwellers and people of goodwill towards rural Ireland and in the context of peaceful, multi-cultural co-existence in the common cause of ensuring, by legal and constitutional means, the growth and maintenance of a vibrant, populated countryside in the traditional Irish forms of baile fearann or dispersed village, sráid bhaile or street village and the clachán or nucleated clustered village.”
The IRDA is a voluntary, unfunded organisation that depends on the €20 annual subscription of its members to carry out its work. It was set up to tackle the unseemly and daft approaches to rural planning adopted by planning authorities. Regardless of 800 years of domination by outside forces it is still impossible for many Irish people to live in their own area because of the colonial interpretations adopted by many planners.

A planning ‘need’
Seeking planning permission is blocked first of all by the ‘need’ question. One must establish a need to build in an area. It is no longer enough to have a family history in an area, you must also establish a need to satisfy some off-the-wall loopy interpretation of planning laws that were drawn up to assist people not shackle them. In the Jewish times of Jesus, laws replaced the Law. Today, the laws are being used to deter, prevent and refuse access to rural areas to those people whose hearts are throbbing with the beat of the countryside. They want us to live in cities and towns. The cry of ‘To hell or to Connacht’ has been replaced by those awful terms, ‘further information requested’ or ‘planning permission refused.’ What is becoming of our country when diktats are promulgated by people using half-baked ideas? Minister Dick Roche states that his Rural Planning Guidelines are there to benefit people from rural areas.
“There is now a presumption in favour of one-off houses…,” he stated at the launch. It is a pity that planners throughout the country are not aware of the Minister’s intentions. The IRDA is standing up against the latest form of bullying – denying people access to live where they want in rural areas.
The IRDA is not advocating a free for all in planning matters. It is simply advocating a sensible approach. There have been calls for ‘proofing’ to take place in government policies to ensure that rural areas are not discriminated against; the proofing that is required is in the planning process. The country once played host to over eight million people. They did not live between blades of grass or in cracks in stone walls. They lived in homes.

Rural cleansing
What is happening across the Irish countryside is akin to an ethnic cleansing of rural life. People who operate under the guise of ‘planners’ in this country do not even have to have an Irish qualification. The acceptable norm of being a ‘qualified planner’ in Ireland - those who make recommendations to grant or refuse our planning applications – refers to an international accreditation by the Royal Town Planning Institute (London) or similar, according to the IRDA. “These qualifications involve no recognition whatsoever of the special position of the island nation of Ireland in respect of our history, culture, traditions, 5,000-year-old rural settlement patterns or the many subtleties and nuances that make our country and our Irish race unique. Under Departmental regulations, non-national planners are not obliged to take courses whatsoever in relation to the ‘Irish’ dimension before taking up employment in this country.”
The planners irony does not stop there. When the Minister introduced the regulations one would have expected the planners of the country to rejoice that the person local authority planners are deemed to serve under had made an important determination in matters so dear to people of the country. Instead, the Irish Planning Institute opposed Government policy on rural housing! On the one hand, the Government attempted to deal with an explosive issue in a sensitive manner, yet those deemed with a duty of care to carry out the policy ‘mutinied’. Ah sure it is a great country! It could only happen here. The tail wags the dog and gets away with it!
The IRDA claims that the current President of the Irish Planning Institute, Mr Hank van der Kamp, “recently suggested we need a complete ban on rural housing similar to the one imposed on Northern Ireland by a British Minister in 2006. In these circumstances, where the professional organisation representing planners in the country is expressing views that are in direct opposition to Government policy on rural housing, it is nonsensical to suppose that individual IPI members do not reflect this anti-rural housing bias when assessing individual applications. The citizens’ rights to fair and objective treatment from these public servants is a sick joke.”
The IRDA goes on to claim that “the overwhelming ethos, background and qualifications of planners are towards urbanisation. They have no problem pursuing this ideology under Irish planning law.”

Taking control
Regardless of the Minister’s good intentions on rural planning laws, they cannot work when planners are unaccountable. Planners can argue that they only make recommendations rather than planning decisions, which are the remit of the relevant Town or County Manager, but the reality is that planners and/or Town and County Managers remain unaccountable to the people of the country. They are neither elected nor ever have to seek re-election. It is time that respective Town or County Managers took control in planning matters in their respective domains. Obviously, the history of the recommendations from certain planners is not a history to cherish in this country. Actions speak louder than words.
The IRDA is taking action, even to the point of meeting and preparing and submitting a joint proposal with the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland (RIAI) to Minister Dick Roche for the introduction of a national Planning Monitoring Forum. The proposal was rejected by the Minister! Was the Minister afraid that these architects subscribed to archiseek.com!

"...a certain breed of misnamed professional"? Indeed, Mr 'journalist'.

For the record, if anyone from the IRDA - or Liamy McNally, for that matter - would like to contribute to this discussion by attempting to defend their policies on rural housing, please join us. If we (those of us who think the IRDA is plainly misguided) are so wrong about the substantive issues, then debating with us should be like shooting fish in a barrel. Slick, repulsive, smart ass, West Brit fish, perhaps, but fish nevertheless. (Won't somebody please think of the fish!?!?)

No takers...?
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby schuhart » Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:41 pm

I’ve read the thread again in search of treason. The only conclusion I can come to is that the Mayo News regard questioning destructive myths as an inherently unIrish activity.

On a more positive note, I’m actually surprised these discussions are obviously bothering someone to the extent that a local paper in Mayo prints a load of evasive mindless nonsense as a comfort.
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby PVC King » Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:12 pm

The IRDA is not advocating a free for all in planning matters. It is simply advocating a sensible approach. There have been calls for ‘proofing’ to take place in government policies to ensure that rural areas are not discriminated against; the proofing that is required is in the planning process.


I have heard this line from the IRA in the past but yet have never heard what this sensible approach actually contains; when pressed on issues such as urban demand where there is no link to the area or poor selection which results in a health risk to the applicant because of poor drainage they are remarkably silent.

I will never forget a late evening conversation in a bar with a planner I met by chance who was practising in the west; the individual described the constant requirement to explain to people that if the applicant built on a karst site that they would end up drinking their own effluent; the answer was often ah sure it doesn't matter we'll sell up anyway.


The IRDA claims that the current President of the Irish Planning Institute, Mr Hank van der Kamp, “recently suggested we need a complete ban on rural housing similar to the one imposed on Northern Ireland by a British Minister in 2006. In these circumstances, where the professional organisation representing planners in the country is expressing views that are in direct opposition to Government policy on rural housing, it is nonsensical to suppose that individual IPI members do not reflect this anti-rural housing bias when assessing individual applications.


Given the number of permissions that have been granted in recent years that statement is an absolute nonsense.
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby Frank Taylor » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:24 pm

PVC King wrote:I have heard this line from the IRA in the past but yet have never heard what this sensible approach actually contains]IRDA had an audience with the Dáil joint committee on Environment and Local Governmenrt where Eamon Gilmore asked them under what circumstances they would oppose one-off housing. Their spokesman said
There are many parts of my home county of Mayo where there are dispersed communities and open tracts of countryside where no one lives. There is an altitude limit for the construction of houses; this would also be true of Kildare. I would not allow one house to be built in vacant areas of Mayo, Galway or Donegal and would respect the current altitude limit in counties such as Kildare and others. There is no question of the IRDA wanting a complete free-for-all.
http://www.irlgov.ie/committees-29/c-environment/20031106-J/Page3.htm

FG, FF and the PDs have all come out in strong support of relaxation of planning rules for rural housing. Labour sat on the fence and just complained with the way the minister went about drawing up the rural housing guidelines. The greens opposed the new guidelines.

The most enthusiastic politcial party were Sinn Féin/IRDA
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby PVC King » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:05 am

Frank

Although this dates from 2003; I am shocked it relects very poorly on the Chairman that Healy Rae's inferences ala the Nazis were allowed stand on the record; it appears that the site selling industry has indeed gained sufferage from a number of quarters who may or may not hang onto very marginal seats and it is quite simply unacceptable many of the statements that were allowed to stand.

Your analysis is spot on for that time
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby alonso » Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:03 am

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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby Frank Taylor » Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:27 pm

There's no point in demonising IRDA, they are a lobby group, representing a widely held view. Their spokespeople make lengthy arguments for their case. Although they say that British planning rules are not appropriate for Ireland, they are not overtly anti-British. Our public representatives have gone far further in their anti-Briish comments. Healy-Rae really goes the furthest in saying "An Taisce has caused more destruction in south County Kerry than Hitler did in Europe during the last war".

One of IRDA's arguments is that "Each refusal for a permanent home is both a serious attack on an individual’s constitutional right as well as a personal tragedy". The personal tragedy arises where someone has the funds to build a house (say 200-250K) but not to buy a house, (say 300-350K). The tragedy is that houses prices are too high. I think this is a temporary situation. We are increasing the housing stock by around 5% per year (100K houses) and this can't continue indefinitely. Historically, it has usually been more expensive to build than to buy and once we return to this equilibrium, the housing tragedy focus will be on negative equity.
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby PVC King » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:19 pm

All organisations have fellow travellers who are unable to see beyond their own viewpoint and are often also unable to keep personality out of it.

In essence the IRDA have called for a complete free for all save for some elevated areas as they put it; they have previously called for the abolition of restrictions in SAC's and areas of outstanding natural beauty presumably because they are not elevated examples would include the Shannon Callows or most of the nations coast.

Healey Rae is a thug and a shameless populaist who in his early dail period posed with Star glamour models to boost his profile; he is sadly not unique in his quest to retain power on the clientist model.

The assertion that there is an attack on personal liberty is non-sensical and the latest Dartmouth Square episode should illustrate that it is now landlord's and not tenants that are starting to cite Michael Davvitt and the days of the land league.

In relation to affordability the sites that are farmed off or sold as developed properties are not cheap and in Kenmare one can expect to pay excess €500,000 for a half acre site that secured planning on the basis of local need. This is an industry and the IRDA should be listened to no more than a union can be objective on the eve of a national pay deal.

At 35,000 one offs per year local government outside the main urban centres will become economically unviable in a short few years unless a punative council tax regime is introduced.
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby Finite » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:44 pm

The tinkers have the right idea - it is the perfect solution and proves that one can have one's cake and eat it. Simply drive your one-off into town to increase housing density when needed and, subject to the vagaries of the nation's shifting demographics and market economics, pull your one-off back to a desolate part of the countryside when deemed necessary. The government will actively fund this type of demographic obfuscation through all sorts of cultural and economic initiatives. Instead of talking about these issues, Ireland's architectural comunity should be putting their heads together to design such mobile one-off units that would have a 'plug-and-play' design, by which I mean they could simply plug into the local services infrastructure of a rural town or city and then move on to rebalance the nation's demographics when needed. 32 county compatability would, of course, be desireable.
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby PVC King » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:59 pm

Don't forget Sasana which seems to absorb much of the Rathkeale contingent

Seriously I wouldn't compare travellers with one off houses but the stance between North and South could not be more pronounced
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby zelemon » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:09 pm

Can anyone advise on what the offical stance is on politcal interference on planning apps.
I am doign a study on a house that got planning ( when it really should not have) due to the hard work of a certain TD! Local rep's are left view files at certain stages when others are not, surely this is wrong & must be changed?
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby Bago » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:39 am

did he use headed paper??
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby zelemon » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:42 pm

He sure did, from my discussions with other planners in the area, this is standard procedure, the planners are obviously intimidated by the politicians etc!
is there anything in the planning to forbid such communications?
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Re: Irish Rural Dwellers Association

Postby henno » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:53 am

zelemon wrote:He sure did, from my discussions with other planners in the area, this is standard procedure, the planners are obviously intimidated by the politicians etc!
is there anything in the planning to forbid such communications?


no.

seeing as the board of councillors are the planners bosses, its not illogical for a planners to feel "intimidated" if there is a councillor sniffing around a file.

I have lots of experience of applications that would not have been successful without political influence. Some interference was required to curb over zealous planners, while other interference was required to give the application any hope of success. Swings and roundabouts in my view.

Planners use their CDP as their bible. They refer to regional and national plans also, and to a smaller extent local area plans. Theres no way every eventuality can be guided by these plans so there is still a large amount decision that is left to the opinion of the planner.
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