cork city boundary extension

Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:50 pm

:) City Manager, Joe Gavin will present his draft plan for a City Boundary Extension to councillors at the CCC meeting Monday 13th Nov.

His plans for the extension commence at Poulavone Roundabout to the east of Ballincollig, the proposed new boundary travels north to Kerry Pike and then northwest to the N20/R617 east of Blarney and continues northwest taking in Monard and Rathpeacon and south of Whitechurch and Carrignavar until it meets the Glashaboy River at Dunbulloge Bridge. It then follows the Glasaboy River generally eastwards to Upper Glanmire Bridge before turning northeast along the R616 and the south to the N8, Dublin Road north of Sallybrook and Sarsfield Court. Further east of this point it then travels southwards to the Glanmire By pass and then eastwards to Ballycurreen before turning southwards again to the inner harbour west of Carrigtohill to encompass Glounthane and Little Island. It crosses Lough Mahon and then down the West Passage of the river to south of Monkstown. It comes inland along Monkstown Creek at Raffeen and eastwards along the Glounatouig Stream and the R613 north of Carrigaline as far as Ballygarvan. It then swings northwards west of the Airport and then north westwards to include Waterfall and Ballynora ot the west of Curraheen. Then it continues north along the Ballincollig Bypass link road to the starting location at Poulavone Roundabout east of Ballincollig.

Joe Gavin went on to point out;
Cork City is 6 % below its predicted 2006 population level whilst the remainder of Metropolitan Cork is 11 % above its predicted level and the outer ring is 4% above its predicted 2006.
An expansion of the city boundary will reduce these problems significantly through having control of these issues in the City Council where urban development policy objectives can be pursued with increased certainty.

Socio-economic Balance
Cities generally demonstrate greater levels of socio-economic disadvantage than neighboring county areas. Cork City is no exception. Key indicators are:
• 40% of Cork City’s population live in areas designated under the Government’s RAPID Programme
• In the “Mapping Poverty” Report”* issued by the Combat Poverty Agency and the Institute of Public Administration in 2005, Cork City exhibits high poverty risks for all categories in the national context nationally and in most cases is about 30 -40% higher than County Cork. Specific examples are
a) Disparities in income poverty risk by area (national average = 1.0) Cork City -1.4; Cork County -1.0
b) Disparities in risk of modified consistent poverty by area Cork City -1.3; Cork County – 0.9

A boundary extension would not ameliorate absolute levels of disadvantage, but would allow social balance to be improved in a larger with the consequential benefits of
a) A wider variety of role-models and networks available to residents than would be the case in area with high concentrations of social housing. This will improve access to both economic and wider quality of life opportunities
b) Anti-social behaviour is likely to be more effectively sanctioned in an informal manner.
c) A wider range of employment opportunities that will suit the occupants of social and affordable housing. As some of these jobs will be low-paying, the proximity of employees to their place of work will be a key factor in accessing employment and retaining it. Transport costs increase with distance between residence and employment. Distance also creates other barriers to employment. In addition many employment opportunities are conveyed by word-of-mouth, so being in the right place at the right time will also be important.
d) The converse of c) also applies. It is important to have a supply of labour close to employment so that prospective employers will have an opportunity to access this resource. In the period since 1971, the proportion of children aged under 15 and married couples has steadily decreased in the City compared to the rest of the Cork Metropolitan Area. In the same period there has been an increase in the proportion of single people and persons aged 60 and over. Continuation of these trends will lead to a decline in the most active section of the population in the city and a skewing of service provision. This will have adverse implications for both policy and operational development within the city.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby jungle » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:23 pm

Interesting that Waterfall and Ballinora are included when they are still (especially the latter) essentially villages a short distance from the city, while Ballincollig, which is to all intents and purposes a suburb isn't.

Also Passage West, which has its own UDC would be brought into the city. Would there be any issue there?

Does this look like trying to suggest the largest extension possible so that it will matter less when some is bargained away?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:39 pm

jungle wrote:Does this look like trying to suggest the largest extension possible so that it will matter less when some is bargained away?


I would think that you are absolutely right jungle.
I think that some eyebrows will be raised in County Hall when they read this draft?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Pug » Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:31 pm

[quote="kite"]:) City Manager, Joe Gavin will present his draft plan for a City Boundary Extension to councillors at the CCC meeting Monday 13th Nov.
QUOTE]

is douglas specifically mentioned at all? its not in the city at the moment
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:54 pm

Joe Gavin looks like embarking on a campaign of Lebensraum...who knows where that will end?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby samuel j » Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:33 pm

Praxiteles wrote:Joe Gavin looks like embarking on a campaign of Lebensraum...who knows where that will end?

Ha, ha....very good ....on form this evening I think mr. p.........
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:37 pm

Pug wrote::) City Manager, Joe Gavin will present his draft plan for a City Boundary Extension to councillors at the CCC meeting Monday 13th Nov.
QUOTE]

is douglas specifically mentioned at all? its not in the city at the moment


Apologies for not posting the full text of Mr. Gavin’]Douglas/Donnybrook/Grange and Rochestown ,[/B]Passage and Monkstown.

Note that all this land will not be made available for development and significant peripheral areas can be used as buffer between the expanded City and the Satellite Towns in the County.
The exact boundary lines were selected based on physical entities (eg roads and rivers) which can be easily identified on the ground. The boundary does not coincide with the majority of the rural DED boundaries for this reason but which would be have been useful from a data reporting point of view. The DEDs were severed in many instances to avoid including excessive areas within the new boundary. The boundary as proposed represents the most practical and “best fit” solution between the large Metropolitan Cork area (including the satellite towns) and a minimalist extension which may result in the need for a further extension at some time again in the future – which is not desirable or logical. It will be sufficient to facilitate the orderly and managed development and operation of the City as it expands in the future decades.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby corcaighboy » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:22 am

Good to see the issue of the city boundaries being addressed.
As an aside, I always wondered why the city boundaries could not be the same as the electoral wards. That way, the city boundaries would encompass Cork South Central and Cork North Central. At least electoral boundaries change over time based on population shifts, etc (gerrymandering, never!)
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:18 am

:D Cork County Councillor Alan Coleman’s reaction to Joe Gavin’s proposed boundary extension as reported by the Irish Examiner.

“The Docklands is the only major development on the city’s plate and it remains totally undeveloped. If that’s an example of how they’d run large tracts of land in the county, then God help us all,” he said.

Full story here;

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=18059-qqqx=1.asp
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby PTB » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:36 pm

Does the extension really need to be that big? I cant really see the need for all that additional land to the south and the northeast. Is all of that going to be developed in the future?

Yes the county councillers are a bit pissed alright. Some other fella (or the same one) noted that the city was the only area to experience a drop in population during the Celtic Tiger. I thing he was being ignorant of the fact that as cities mature there is a shift in population form the immediate suburbs to the outer suburbs. It's not as if the city council has had had much land on which to develop anyhow.

Does Gavin have to have the compliance of the county councillers to get the go-ahead for the extension? Because I dont think he's going to get it.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby THE_Chris » Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:34 am

Bring Cobh under the extention and use it to fix up the roads and oust that stupid Council they have there.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Praxiteles » Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:51 am

Here here.... I agree totally. An excellent opportunity to sweept out that incompetent lot.

[The only quam I have though would be a nagging suspicion that J. Gavin might start looking to include the Sudatenland as well. A bit of déjà vu....]
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Re: cork city boundary extension

Postby corcaighboy » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:23 am

Perhaps we were all getting a bit too excited in hoping that common sense would prevail...this from today's Irish Examiner

Boundary extension a ‘non-runner’

By Niall Murray
PLANS by Cork city manager Joe Gavin to extend the city boundary significantly into Cork County Council territory will never gain Government approval, a local Fianna Fáil TD warned last night.

Noel O’Flynn, a former member of Cork City Council, said the plans were far too big and should be rejected by city councillors.

The report outlining the proposed expansion of the city’s administrative area beyond Douglas and Cork Airport to the south, east as far as Little Island, north to Killeens and Rathcooney and west to Waterfall and Ballinora, will be put before Cork City Council members for approval tonight.

However, Mr O’Flynn said, any such move will never get the green light from central government, which would have to rubber-stamp any boundary extension.

“It’s a completely ill-conceived idea, the city manager must be losing the run of himself. I believe the proposal will get no support in its current form from the Government,” he said.

The proposed extension is likely to face strong opposition from Cork County Council members, who are expected to seek a debate on the proposals at their regular meeting this morning, although it is not scheduled for discussion.

The initial reaction from some county councillors when details of the City Hall plans emerged at the weekend was one of outrage, with warnings that relations between neighbouring authorities could be soured if the proposals are pursued by Mr Gavin.

However, he insists that the city must be allowed to grow physically to act as a counterweight to the development of greater Dublin.

The plans he will present to councillors tonight would increase the city’s population from less than 120,000 to 180,000.
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Re: cork city boundary extension

Postby browser » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:59 am

I suspect this is definitely an opening play from the City Council. I doubt they want Passage et al but probably need to make the (initial) circle wide enough to justify taking in bits of the County more appropriate to City control, ie. Little Island, the Airport, etc. I would generally like to see them err on the side of being too big. Cork County will be best served by having a thriving City at its core and I'm definitely behind the extension in principle (and as a Douglas person I'm looking forward to living in the City!)
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Re: cork city boundary extension

Postby Pug » Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:34 pm

i suppose it would be naive to point out that the city council and county council actually should be working for us the people who voted them in and not acting like two separate kingdoms who hate each other thereby not getting a thing done for transport roads etc. Comparing Joe Gavin to Napolean as one councillor did was slightly over the top maybe, considering he hasnt actually invaded the county. Its councillors watching their jobs as surely if there is less land for them to worry about then there will have to be less councillors.
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Re: cork city boundary extension

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:41 pm

corcaighboy wrote:Perhaps we were all getting a bit too excited in hoping that common sense would prevail...this from today's Irish Examiner

Boundary extension a ‘non-runner’

By Niall Murray
PLANS by Cork city manager Joe Gavin to extend the city boundary significantly into Cork County Council territory will never gain Government approval, a local Fianna Fáil TD warned last night.

Noel O’Flynn, a former member of Cork City Council, said the plans were far too big and should be rejected by city councillors.

The report outlining the proposed expansion of the city’s administrative area beyond Douglas and Cork Airport to the south, east as far as Little Island, north to Killeens and Rathcooney and west to Waterfall and Ballinora, will be put before Cork City Council members for approval tonight.

However, Mr O’Flynn said, any such move will never get the green light from central government, which would have to rubber-stamp any boundary extension.

“It’s a completely ill-conceived idea, the city manager must be losing the run of himself. I believe the proposal will get no support in its current form from the Government,” he said.

The proposed extension is likely to face strong opposition from Cork County Council members, who are expected to seek a debate on the proposals at their regular meeting this morning, although it is not scheduled for discussion.

The initial reaction from some county councillors when details of the City Hall plans emerged at the weekend was one of outrage, with warnings that relations between neighbouring authorities could be soured if the proposals are pursued by Mr Gavin.

However, he insists that the city must be allowed to grow physically to act as a counterweight to the development of greater Dublin.

The plans he will present to councillors tonight would increase the city’s population from less than 120,000 to 180,000.



It looks as though Mr Oì'Keeffe is taking a churchillian stance of no appeasment.
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Re: cork city boundary extension

Postby corcaighboy » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:35 pm

I would imagine that the loss of territory is seen by county councillors as an attack on the gravy train that is commercial rates. Not that rates will decline mind you....simply that it will be the city council that gets its mitts on them! Rates and development levies seem to be the last source of income for our councils, and since businesses don't vote, they are a target that can be squeezed 'till there is nothing left.
Obviously, I hope the city boundaries are enlarged to reflect reality and that spatial planning and public transport are given the priority they deserve.
And as for Napoleon, if only we had someone with his planning foresight running the show rather than the Noel O' Flynn's of this world :(
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:16 am

:) City Councillors voted unanimously tonight to accept the city manager’s proposal for a city boundary extension.
Councillors from all parties suggested that the County Council should be either given a strict timeframe to accept the city managers proposal or they be taken out of the loop altogether, and the city council go directly to the Minister and ask that he invoke a Section 8 to determine the extent of the extension.
Following a request from the City Manager councilors agreed to allow the proposal to be delivered to the County Council without a strict timeframe for conclusion of discussions.
It was the opinion of the majority of Councilors however that the issue be revisited in the very near future and that an unwritten deadline of 2008/09 be set for the extension. :cool:
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Praxiteles » Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:42 am

Just like the Reichstag in 1933. No one opposed the little man's rise and Hindenburg had little option but to bring him into government in the vain hope of taming him. It did not take him too long, however, to start making ultimatums....
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:47 am

A bridge too far for Joe Gavin??

Today’s Irish Examiner’s story on the boundary extension;
Councils fight over ‘Gavin’s gaff’

By Eoin English and Seán O’Riordan
A MAJOR battle began last night over ambitious plans to extend Cork’s city boundary.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=18248-qqqx=1.asp
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Pug » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:07 pm

Praxiteles wrote:Just like the Reichstag in 1933. No one opposed the little man's rise and Hindenburg had little option but to bring him into government in the vain hope of taming him. It did not take him too long, however, to start making ultimatums....


can we give over on comparing J Gavin to HItler in 1933? between that now and another councillor calling him Napolean, by the time the 2008/9 boundary extension happens we will have run out of historical figures.

Lets stick to what you all think of the boundary extension. Its been due for years and media reports seem that the city council are being very high handed about it so instead of bringing in an arbitrator and agreeing some sort of compo figure for the county council, this will drag on for ages, the councillors will end up doing less than they already do anyway and its to our own detriment in that the eyes will be taken off things like the shambles that is the electoral register (i was deleted from it even though i sent back the councils own form about registering a change of address) and poor transport in cork, the delay in kent station, the delay in the docklands etc etc
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Spinal Tap » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:23 pm

All the stupid invalid historical references on this site should be deleted as the are distracting from the debate.
Cork City needs the boundary extension a sthe last one was in 1966 and the parish pump political response from some of our county councillors is akin to a Ballymagash or Kilnascully farce.They are not acting in the citizens of this City or County's interests for proper and ordered future planning between the 2 duristictions.
I am sure that this argument will run on for a while whilst they play to the galleries but at the end of this process they will have to agree an extension or else the Government of the state will do it for them.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:37 pm

Spinal Tap wrote:All the stupid invalid historical references on this site should be deleted as the are distracting from the debate.
Cork City needs the boundary extension a sthe last one was in 1966 and the parish pump political response from some of our county councillors is akin to a Ballymagash or Kilnascully farce.They are not acting in the citizens of this City or County's interests for proper and ordered future planning between the 2 duristictions.
I am sure that this argument will run on for a while whilst they play to the galleries but at the end of this process they will have to agree an extension or else the Government of the state will do it for them.


County Councillors might be worried now by the prospect of a city boundary extension but they will need the services of the HSE if the suggestion put before city councilors last night comes to fruition.
A proposal that Cork city retain it’s local representation for the city as it now exists and form borough type councils for the proposed extended area may give our county cousins the impression that our city fathers do not want them dragging mud onto the hallowed steps of City Hall?

The boundary proposal is to be sent to County hall following last night's vote.
My reading of the Local Government Act 2001 is that the County will have to respond within 6 months.
Failing a responce the city will be justified in going to the Minister on a solo run.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby MrX » Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:22 pm

It's clearly about rates.

The county council must be taking a huge amount of cash out of the businesses which are effectively in the city but are designated as county council areas.

There's a very unfair scenario where by the city centre is increasingly competiting with suburban shopping malls which are paying rates to the county council.

The city council also provides a disproportionately high amount of social housing and other services that simply are not provided by the county council on anything like the same scale.

Those suburban areas really do need to be merged into the city for it to make any sense from an economic perspective.

It's grossly unfair to simply "hive off" the edges of the city, which are fairly wealthy, and leave the city itself as a small, sparcely populated centre and a large council estates.

Increasing Cork City's population will also see it being taken far more seriously at national level. You'd be supprised at how many people just read the official population statistics and assume it's tiny.

It would also allow for better real urban planning / infrastructural development. As it stands the city /county divide isn't really helping things much.

A strong city council is far better able to deal with urban issues that impact upon all of those areas than a big amorphous county council.

If anything, it should increase accountability .
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Praxiteles » Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:37 pm

The daftest thing of all is the location of Cork COUNTY Hall. In the largest county in the country, nowhere could be found to locate the County Hall: it is within the jurisdiction of the City Council. Presumably the City Council derives rates for it.
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