has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby weelollo » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:14 pm

Hiya,
Just wanted to ask if any of yous know about how and when etc irish architecture is different in the republic say Galway or any other "typical irish" town, to the architecture in the north, say Newry or the likes of it. I have been there meself a couple of times, in Belfast, Derry and other places, and of course in the republic as well, just need some pro info. lol.
If you know anythin concrete, like what "style" the british were usin after the dividin treaty of '21 to build in the north, or what kind of architecture thats typical irish (not british that is).
Email me, or reply here, thanks a lot

Slán
/Linnea
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby weelollo » Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:50 pm

haha maybe i wasnt like clear enough. Just want 2 know more specified details about the differences between "british" and "irish" architecture within Ireland (32 counties).
Hope that someone can give me some kind of answer :)
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby weelollo » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:44 am

cmon i need it for an essay!!! i dnt live in ireland so i cant go out an look for meself!! :D
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby MT » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:39 am

Not sure that architecture has differed much since partition, certainly not in recent times. One off bungalows look the same on both sides of the border. Office developments, shopping centres and business parks don't seem to differ that much either. All categories seem to have changed in style with the passing decades but that evolution in design seems to have been matched on each side of the border. Where there is possibly a difference is in the greater use of undressed stone in some projects in the Republic. I've always wondered if this is an attempt to integrate something Celtic, ancient and distinctly Irish into otherwise nondescript developments. This seems less common in NI and could be the result of a different political/historical perspective. I have to say I hate the stone finish in many urban settings - it often looks completely out of place, like a dry stone wall from western Ireland in the middle of a city. It seems such a contrived attempt at what I'd call diddly dee Irishness - why don't they throw in a statue of a leprachun for good measure? This exception aside though there doesn't seem to be much variation.

Where you're more likely to find differences is probably prior to partition. Much of historic Dublin is Georgian, as too is Limerick, however, you won't find any Georgian architecture in Belfast as the city didn't really exist in the 18th century. Belfast's older parts are almost all Victorian and Ewardian(?) - the Northeast went through an industrial boom during the 19th and early 20th century while the rest of the island lagged behind and remained more agrarian. The result was a glut of urban development in Belfast as the city grew from nothing into Ireland's largest city. In contrast there seems to be much less Victorian architecture in Dublin, Cork etc. probably due to a different economic climate.

One modern day difference in terms of development is probably not so much in architectural style but in settlement patterns and planning policy. Although lax by UK standards NI's planning policy seems to be considerably more rigid than the Republic's. Green belts surround most large urban settlements up here whereas cities and towns in the Republic have a much more sprawling form of development. Another difference exists in the rate of one-off house construction. This has gone on at a much higher level for longer down south than in the north. Add this to more ribbon development along roads leading out of towns in the Republic and the demarcation line between urban and rural has become a lot more blurred than in NI. This suburbanisation of the countryside will probably continue at pace in the former due to the current FF government's committment to one-off housing. In contrast new planning restrictions have been introduced on rural development in NI by Lord Rooker so a few decades hence and there might be considerable difference in appearance between the two parts of Ireland.
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby weelollo » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:26 pm

sorry double post
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby weelollo » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:27 pm

MT wrote:Not sure that architecture has differed much since partition, certainly not in recent times. .


That wasn't really what i was lookin for, I didnt made that title meself, one of the moderators probably did.
It was more of a question about general differences between irish and british architecture within the 32 counties
Thanks a lot anyways, you gave answers to some of my questions : )
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:44 pm

weelollo wrote:That wasn't really what i was lookin for, I didnt made that title meself, one of the moderators probably did.
It was more of a question about general differences between irish and british architecture within the 32 counties
Thanks a lot anyways, you gave answers to some of my questions : )



your original thread title was sectarian so I changed it
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby weelollo » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:00 pm

was it? tell me what my original title was please.
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:52 am

weelollo wrote:cmon i need it for an essay!!!

Well why didn't you say so sooner. I could have just given you a copy of an old essay of my own that you could pass off as your work instead.

FWIW Regional variations have largely died out in more recent times. As MT points out, it's little things that differ nowadays, not big things. Now everything's just an international mush, which you knew already (obvs. lol, &c.).
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby weelollo » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:15 am

ctesiphon wrote:Well why didn't you say so sooner. I could have just given you a copy of an old essay of my own that you could pass off as your work instead.
.


well it's not too late for that ;) haha.

i would just have a wee look at it, woulndt even think of copyin it, promise!
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:00 am

No. I find academic short-cutting distasteful and reprehensible. Do your own work. You have access to a college library - and therefore to every library in the world - and you have access to the internet.
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby alan d » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:19 pm

it's funny, of all the things happening on the site, this has caught my eye and I've been keeping up.

Crikey, what the hell are students doing these days, this bloke, if it is a bloke asked a stupid question in text that is barely literate in preparation for an essay he has no idea about and can't be bother looking up himself then complains when someone ,ctesiphon, takes the time to give a good answer and then thinks it possible he could rip off his work.

amazing, absolutely amazing.
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby weelollo » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:42 pm

alan d wrote:it's funny, of all the things happening on the site, this has caught my eye and I've been keeping up.

Crikey, what the hell are students doing these days, this bloke, if it is a bloke asked a stupid question in text that is barely literate in preparation for an essay he has no idea about and can't be bother looking up himself then complains when someone ,ctesiphon, takes the time to give a good answer and then thinks it possible he could rip off his work.

amazing, absolutely amazing.


oh my. I can't believe this. first, why do you think I had to ask about it here, eh?
second, I would never EVER rip off anyones work but everything that you're readin to prepare for an essay is written by someone is it not? So to read someone elses stuff is therefor a ripoff, is that what you think? Ok I won't bother comin here, I won't bother askin. Im sorry I even opened my mouth. First my title is sectarian and then everythin I say i stupid. Thanks alot fellas. And no Im a girl. bye now.
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby alan d » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:08 pm

is english your first language?

are you my seventeen year old son?
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby alan d » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:18 pm

if you're the latter then get off the fuckin playstation and do the work yourself.

If it's the former then I already know the answer.
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:08 pm

Minor correction- the good info came from MT, alan. Just to give credit where it's due, like.;)

On the other subject- this is a discussion forum, and a place where people sometimes get answers to questions if they don't know themselves. But to state baldly that it's for an essay tends to send entirely the wrong message, particularly when many/most people are fairly busy with their lives elsewhere. It just comes across as laziness.
It's a pity, too, as had this been phrased differently it could have turned into an interesting discussion. Not that I'd have been able to contribute much, but I'd have watched it keenly. I learned a good bit from MT's post, for example.

Is the info you require really that hard to find? Surely the RSUA have publications on Northern architecture dealing with themes, evolutions, etc, and I know there are many books tracing the progress of architecture in the RoI in the 20th century. And the UAHS publishes many books, pamphlets, etc. on the more historic aspects of the North, some of which might deal with the 20th century. Compare the pictures, assess the architects. Use your eyes. If there's a difference, is it down to partition? Or is it simply the extension of the regional variations found throughout the island? And if there's no difference, is that because architecture generally is becoming more international?

I don't think it's the fact that you asked this question, it's the way it was asked and the presumptuousness that we'd simply give you the answer you require - as if we were waiting in the wings to lighten your workload - that bothered us (well, me anyway).

Most importantly, you'll learn more by doing it yourself than by having it handed to you on a plate.
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby hutton » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:14 pm

ctesiphon wrote:I learned a good bit from MT's post, for example.


Agreed - a very informative post... Btw agree with Alan D also - get off the feckin' playstation weelollo and do some work! :D
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby weelollo » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:45 pm

Ok, you just hurt me there. I never asked anyone to serve anything on a plate or what on earth you are talkin about. You see, it's not so freakin easy for me to find information myself. I live in Sweden, so I won't find that many books about irish architecture, in fact, I haven't found a single one yet. I searched the internet before I even entered this forum, but found nothin.
This isn't a very long or dead important essay if you're speakin of grades and things like that, it only had to be a short one, and I could go on about my own thoughts forever, thats not a problem, but I just needed inspiration and FACTS, from people who might know more than me, who might live in Ireland, who might have professional knowledge about architecture in general that I haven't got myself.

And for God's sake, I don't even own a playstation, so take that back, please.
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby alan d » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:22 pm

..................................flesruoy krow eht od dna noitattsyalp nikcuf eht ffo teg neht rettal eht er'uoy fi.

In Sweden eh? well chill weelollo, chill......don't take things so seriously
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby GrahamH » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:28 pm

One difference that is very evident between the two jurisdictions is in retail architecture, from the 1970s through to the present day. Northern Ireland went through a big heritage phase in its town centres just like the rest of the UK, in a way that didn't quite happen down south. Particularly the use of red brick facades, fashioned into piers and arches and all the rest of it - typical British 'high street' architecture. The only equivalent examples in Dublin city would be a cluster of 2-3 buildings on the corner of Liffey Street. I can’t think of many in other towns either.

The south didn't go in for this look to such an extent - our 'heritage' architecture tended/tends to manifest itself in the form of bloated rendered boxes, vaguely in character with a traditional southern streetscape. Surprisingly the use of red brick isn't as common as we think for such developments; it only really exploded down south in the form of 1990s apartment blocks. I'd need a quick refresh of the streets of Newry or Belfast to try and hone that down a bit more.

Our penchant for one-off housing as MT says has been pretty consistent on both sides of the border till very recently - arguably the style favoured in the North in the past 10-15 years has been that bit more vulgar than down south. Perhaps that's just from all the hot money round about where I live :D

All in all I think it's fair to say that NI has followed very closely along the lines of the mainland in terms of commercial/retail/office architecture - even their supermarkets and retail parks have a decidedly frumpy, typically mumsy UK look to them (though this has been changing recently). Only in domestic architecture have we really shared any notable similarities. In fact it would perhaps be better to ask how southern design has influenced the UK architecture scene in the North, such is its dominant nature.

The south is arguably more fashion conscious and postmodern of late with all the cash floating about, leaving some aspects of NI development looking rather dated. But certainly the past few years have seen a globalising influence; there are very few differences distinguishable between a typical urban infill or retail unit in Belfast or Dublin or Cork anymore. If anything it's only public domain design that divides us at this stage, and of course vernacular architecture.
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby hutton » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:33 pm

GrahamH wrote:All in all I think it's fair to say that NI has followed very closely along the lines of the mainland in terms of commercial/retail/office architecture -.


MAINLAND? :eek: :mad: What mainland is that Graham?:p :D
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby GrahamH » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:37 pm

;)
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby weelollo » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:40 pm

alan d wrote:..................................flesruoy krow eht od dna noitattsyalp nikcuf eht ffo teg neht rettal eht er'uoy fi.


"if you're the latter then get off the fuckin playstation and do the work yourself"

and sure, I tried to add some humour and some of my own less serious words to my posts but since all of you seemed to take it so offensive I stopped, and told you what I thought in a more "intelligent" way. I am seventeen, so you were right at one point there.

GrahamH: Thanks a lot! I have now started writing my wee essay about the georgian doors of Dublin and everythin around that instead, but I could certainly use this anyways. I had this in my head, but I just needed some facts confirmed, thats why I asked you all. Thanks again Graham for not callin me sectarian or stupid the first thing you do.
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partition?

Postby hutton » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:51 pm

GrahamH wrote: If anything it's only public domain design that divides us at this stage, and of course vernacular architecture.


Thats what I was thinking too - street furniture, ie phone and letter boxes painted red, and also road signage which is monolingual, uses red black and white in colour-coded triangles, and gives distances in miles as opposed to km. Apart from that MTs post about the architecture of Belfast being different arising out of developing at a different time, ie mercantile victorian, to that of Georgian Dublin is also on the money. One could make the case to say that the diamond greens at the heart of so many of Ulster's rural towns are also a geographically specific feature, but equally one could argue that a diamond is really a square by another name, of which we have many in the southern part of the isle as well - besides which, they also date from prepartition days.

Weelollo, if you are serious about this, I suggest you look up Craigavon on this site and wikipedia - though thats more town planning related. Btw youll also find a good thread on this site about the plans for motorways in the 60's in the 6 cos - again a planning matter, but interesting anyway, particularily in the way that they were clearly trying to develop the 6 cos as if it was an island, ie only 2nd class road planned for the dublin direction - not a motorway, and also very little plans for either cross-border infrastructure, or for infrastructure in the western part of the statelet - which is coincidentally predominantly Roman Catholic.

Now can you lend me your playstation :D
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Re: has the architecture of northern ireland differed from the republic since partiti

Postby weelollo » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:56 pm

hutton wrote:Thats what I was thinking too - street furniture, ie phone and letter boxes painted red, and also road signage which is monolingual, uses red black and white in colour-coded triangles, and gives distances in miles as opposed to km. Apart from that MTs post about the architecture of Belfast being different arising out of developing at a different time, ie mercantile victorian, to that of Georgian Dublin is also on the money. One could make the case to say that the diamond greens at the heart of so many of Ulster's rural towns are also a geographically specific feature, but equally one could argue that a diamond is really a square by another name, of which we have many in the southern part of the isle as well - besides which, they also date from prepartition days.

Weelollo, if you are serious about this, I suggest you look up Craigavon on this site and wikipedia - though thats more town planning related. Btw youll also find a good thread on this site about the plans for motorways in the 60's in the 6 cos - again a planning matter, but interesting anyway, particularily in the way that they were clearly trying to develop the 6 cos as if it was an island, ie only 2nd class road planned for the dublin direction - not a motorway, and also very little plans for either cross-border infrastructure, or for infrastructure in the western part of the statelet - which is coincidentally predominantly Roman Catholic.

Now can you lend me your playstation :D


:D get off your computer and buy one yourself

haha no, thanks for your help hutton, I'll check that out,:)
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