cork docklands

Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:55 pm

:eek: Concerns were rightly raised at a recent meeting by Cork City Councillors regarding foot dragging by some stakeholders on the proposed city docklands development.
Issues raised included the passing of five years without serious planning applications being lodged, and the prospect of another five years or so before the first stakeholders blink and take what is on offer money wise rather than wait to see if a few more euro can be extracted.(CCC’s lack of a determined blueprint for the area may have a lot to do with this deadlock ?)

CIE, and the Port of Cork were mentioned at this meeting, POC member Cllr.Colm Burke raised the issue of POC needing 150 million to relocate to the lower harbor (up from 110 million from when the POC made a submission to CCC some months ago), meanwhile the POC listed building on Custom House Quay is at the point of collapse.
It may be worth more as a site than to restore / redevelop this historic Cork building?

City Manager, Joe Gavin stated that out of the 8 major stakeholders involved in the docklands, 3 had reached the point of appointing architects and engineers to put forward proposals. BUT some Councillors said that this may be too little too late if Haulbowline Island gets the nod for an IFSC centre as proposed, which would probably make the docklands the biggest white elephant and waste of money in the states history!!
:o
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Dieter » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:00 am

Have the City Fathers not noticed that we live in a market economy? The fact that, during an unprecedented economic boom, no investor reponded to what was on offer in the Docklands Plan might indicate that the problem lies with the Plan and not with the stakeholders. The Docks have real potential if the Plan has market realism but anyone who believes that an isolated cul de sac like Haulbowline could become a new IFSC has completely lost the plot.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:25 am

Dieter wrote:Have the City Fathers not noticed that we live in a market economy? The fact that, during an unprecedented economic boom, no investor reponded to what was on offer in the Docklands Plan might indicate that the problem lies with the Plan and not with the stakeholders. The Docks have real potential if the Plan has market realism but anyone who believes that an isolated cul de sac like Haulbowline could become a new IFSC has completely lost the plot.


I agree, i also feel the problem with the docklands is the lack of a comprehensive plan that contains adult type joined up thinking.
Having different councillors / officials batting for different stakeholders is not putting the city first.
Many in CCC feel, as you do that Haulbowline is a complete non runner.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby jungle » Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:20 am

kite wrote:meanwhile the POC listed building on Custom House Quay is at the point of collapse.
It may be worth more as a site than to restore / redevelop this historic Cork building?


I assume that this is the bonded warehouse building.

I'm sure it would be worth more as a site for offices than in its current incarnation. But, from the heritage perspective and the need to maintain building variety in the Docklands it needs to be preserved. If it is in so much danger, the city council should consider a CPO on the site.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby rebel_city » Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:09 am

Does anyone have a pic of the POC listed building on Custom Quay handy? I can't quite picture it! :o
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:32 am

rebel_city wrote:Does anyone have a pic of the POC listed building on Custom Quay handy? I can't quite picture it! :o



You will find a photo here rebel_city http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/corkimages/misc-bonded.shtml
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Spinal Tap » Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:47 am

jungle wrote:I assume that this is the bonded warehouse building.

I'm sure it would be worth more as a site for offices than in its current incarnation. But, from the heritage perspective and the need to maintain building variety in the Docklands it needs to be preserved. If it is in so much danger, the city council should consider a CPO on the site.



It would be a waste to the city as offices / commercial development - just imagine those buildings restored and the extensions demolished, original roof and canopies restored,restaurants,cafes'art galleries,exhibitions on there and useable to the public ! Lots of similar projects in Copenhagen and they are a fantastic addition to a city with few visitor attractions like a maritime museum would fit in nicely there.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby jdivision » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:09 pm

Spinal Tap wrote:It would be a waste to the city as offices / commercial development - just imagine those buildings restored and the extensions demolished, original roof and canopies restored,restaurants,cafes'art galleries,exhibitions on there and useable to the public ! Lots of similar projects in Copenhagen and they are a fantastic addition to a city with few visitor attractions like a maritime museum would fit in nicely there.

Would question the commercial viability of them but would like to see that, would also like to see some apartments in there to ensure animation throughout the week
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Spinal Tap » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:22 pm

jdivision wrote:Would question the commercial viability of them but would like to see that, would also like to see some apartments in there to ensure animation throughout the week



Saw some sketches a few years ago for a 30 storey tower on that site which were appaliinig.
If the same buildings were in such a great location in Dublin could you imagine them being neglected and awaiting development for so long ?

As for commercial viability a mixed use development of museum,restaurants,cafes & bars in an area which is taking off at the moment anyway.Apartments would require parking.Ban cars and restore the excellent cobbles as a public space.Bars etc would keep it annimated in the evenings.
As ever in Cork all it needs is a bit of imagination but things take SO much longer in Cork which can be frustrating but maybe in the longer term benificial as if some of the schemes that I have seen for that area including the Lower Glanmire Road came to fruition the place would be destroyed.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby jungle » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:29 pm

Spinal Tap wrote:It would be a waste to the city as offices / commercial development - just imagine those buildings restored and the extensions demolished, original roof and canopies restored,restaurants,cafes'art galleries,exhibitions on there and useable to the public ! Lots of similar projects in Copenhagen and they are a fantastic addition to a city with few visitor attractions like a maritime museum would fit in nicely there.

And in fact, they are one of the few buildings in the docklands worth retaining - perhaps Odlums and a few individual buildings on Victoria Rd as well - so it makes it all the more important that they aren't allowed to decay.

Like jdivision, I wonder if entirely devoting it to restaurant/cafe/gallery use is completely viable. Possibly that could be used for the ground floor. The upper floor might be effetively used as an incubator unit for new media and design, which could also give a showcase retail element to the ground floor.

On the subject of the building itself, is the canopy an original feature of the building or a later addition?
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Spinal Tap » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:41 pm

jungle wrote:And in fact, they are one of the few buildings in the docklands worth retaining - perhaps Odlums and a few individual buildings on Victoria Rd as well - so it makes it all the more important that they aren't allowed to decay.

Like jdivision, I wonder if entirely devoting it to restaurant/cafe/gallery use is completely viable. Possibly that could be used for the ground floor. The upper floor might be effetively used as an incubator unit for new media and design, which could also give a showcase retail element to the ground floor.

On the subject of the building itself, is the canopy an original feature of the building or a later addition?



AFAIK the canopies are original as you can see the stonework on the northern facade where slots were allowed for the supports which are now missing and would have been similar to the southern elevation.

As for media design - excellent idea but getting the buildings restored and open to the public should be an urgency as they are visibly decaying.With the Elysian and other develpopments in the area it would be a fantastic opportunity as occupiers and office workers would like to get near the water and socialise etc away from the "sterility" of all the new construction in the area.

The Odlums buildings are protected and will be retained with apartments on upper levels as I have seen on a proposal.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:33 pm

jungle wrote:And in fact, they are one of the few buildings in the docklands worth retaining - perhaps Odlums and a few individual buildings on Victoria Rd as well - so it makes it all the more important that they aren't allowed to decay.

Like jdivision, I wonder if entirely devoting it to restaurant/cafe/gallery use is completely viable. Possibly that could be used for the ground floor. The upper floor might be effetively used as an incubator unit for new media and design, which could also give a showcase retail element to the ground floor.

On the subject of the building itself, is the canopy an original feature of the building or a later addition?



POC sent a letter to Cork Bonded Warehouses on 24th March 2000 reminding CBW that under the terms of the 1918 Lease under which they hold the property there is an obligation on them that they "will well and substantially repair cleanse maintain amend and in good and tenantable repair order and condition keep the said premises and all new buildings and works which may at any time during the said time be erected on and all additions made to the said premises and the fixtures therein and the walls fences vaults roads sewers drains and appurtenances thereof with all necessary reparations cleansings and amendments whatsoever (damage by fire excepted) and the said premises so repaired cleansed maintained amended and kept as aforesaid will at the expiration or sooner determination of this demise quietly yield up to the Lessors together with all additions and improvements made thereto in the meantime and all fixtures of every kind in or upon the said premises or which during the said term may be affixed or fastened to or upon the same ..".
POC called on CBW to comply in full with the above covenant having regard to the terms of a letter from Mr. John Power, Building Control Officer, Cork City Council with particular reference to the south east corner of the premises and the Schedule of Dilapidations dated June 1999 which was served on them from the POC.

What has happened in the 6 years since that letter?, the building is in a worse state now than 2000
This fine building needs to be saved, before it's too late.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby jdivision » Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:07 pm

Spinal Tap wrote:
As for commercial viability a mixed use development of museum,restaurants,cafes & bars in an area which is taking off at the moment anyway.Apartments would require parking.Ban cars and restore the excellent cobbles as a public space.Bars etc would keep it annimated in the evenings.
As ever in Cork all it needs is a bit of imagination but things take SO much longer in Cork which can be frustrating but maybe in the longer term benificial as if some of the schemes that I have seen for that area including the Lower Glanmire Road came to fruition the place would be destroyed.


Cork's nighttime hub is away from that area and silly though it may seen it's quite hard to persuade people (not just in Cork, but everywhere) to walk away from established night time areas in order to visit new bars outside of it. Examples in Dublin include the IFSC and in London would be the old bonded warehouses next to Canary Wharf which have been converted into cafes and pubs. It's no coincidence that these areas are both former docklands - so slight out of the city centre - and completely dead at the weekend and most weekday evenings. While I think the buildings in Cork would be superb for the purpose it would be hard for operators to make them work until further substantial development takes place in the docklands. Given the state of the building, it's imperative that some form of redevelopment happens now. I would also recommend that somebody write to the building control officer about the state of the buildings or alternatively ring a councillor. Living in Dublin now I wouldn't have an impact if I did either.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:07 pm

jdivision wrote: ...Given the state of the building, it's imperative that some form of redevelopment happens now. I would also recommend that somebody write to the building control officer about the state of the buildings or alternatively ring a councillor. Living in Dublin now I wouldn't have an impact if I did either.


I for one will take your advice and write to the building control officer as in my opinion this is one of the finest buildings in the city, the outside is great but the interior is truly incredible.
Im not sure if CCC will take any notice of the letter as they are aware of the state of the bonded warehouses for years + they are supposed to be obliged not to let any building or site to fall into a state of dereliction under the Derelict Site Act. CCC are breaking the law by allowing this building to fall into a state of near collapse.:mad: :o
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Re: cork docklands

Postby jdivision » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:27 pm

Getting a councillor to campaign for it in d'Echo might also have an effect
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Dieter » Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:41 pm

jdivision wrote:Would question the commercial viability of them but would like to see that, would also like to see some apartments in there to ensure animation throughout the week



I think this is one site where we dont need a commercial investment. Let the public sector put their hands in their pockets and achieve something which is driven purely by civic pride.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:53 pm

Dieter wrote:I think this is one site where we dont need a commercial investment. Let the public sector put their hands in their pockets and achieve something which is driven purely by civic pride.



:) Absolutely right Dieter.
:rolleyes: CCC would be VERY slow to CPO this site or impose the conditions of the Derelict Site Act. with councilors fighting the POC corner and being members of the Port Board.
However if they did their homework they would realize that the POC can force the Cork Bonded Warehouses Co. (the tenants) to restore the building at no cost to the city or the POC under the dilapidation schedule contained in the lease.
It really is a bit “rich” for the POC to come into the City Council Chamber with their begging bowl to get the taxpayer to foot their move to the lower harbour when they allow a jewel of our city to fall into the state of the Custom House Quay site.:mad: :mad:
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Re: cork docklands

Postby phil » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:17 pm

I thought this link might be of interest to some users of archiseek. Lexington mentioned a Local Area Plan for the South of the Docklands, which I have posted a link to, but there is also loads of other information on the rest of the web page to have a look at.

Cork Docklands Economic Study

South Docklands Planning

General Docklands Page
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Re: cork docklands

Postby kite » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:04 pm

:mad: ABP have kicked to touch on the Water Street (Wendera ??) development yet again.
This whole planning application is turning into a complete farce.
If one of the Cork mafia had lodged those plans would the delay be as drawn out?:o
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:38 pm

kite wrote::mad: ABP have kicked to touch on the Water Street (Werdna) development yet again.


My understanding is that ABP have called for a 2nd oral hearing for which you would imagine the 17 storey eglinton st tower that was granted now is precedent so ABP can hardly object too much any more?
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Re: cork docklands

Postby PVC King » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:20 pm

DCC sale could boost buying power
Monday, 12 February 2007 17:55
NCB analyst John Sheehan says any sale of DCC's 49% in homebuilder Manor Park would provide it with the scope to 'dramatically step up' acquisition activity or return cash to shareholders.

On Friday, DCC said it had sold a site in Sandyford for €40m as part of its strategy of generating shareholder value from its property assets 'including its 49% stake in Manor Park Homebuilders'. Weekend press reports suggested DCC and 51% owner Joe Moran had reached agreement on how to proceed on the company's future.

In a note this morning, Mr Sheehan described Manor Park as 'an extremely valuable asset', which accounts for the bulk of the €350m in property assets held by DCC. 'Manor Park has a large land bank and significant commercial and residential development potential over the medium term,' the analyst added.

AdvertisementDCC shares jumped 50 cent to close at €26.70 in Dublin.


Will one of the Cork developers snap the site up like was done with South Wharf?
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Re: cork docklands

Postby PVC King » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:09 pm

Manor Park Homebuilders for sale
Wednesday, 14 February 2007 16:14
It has been confirmed this afternoon that 100% of Manor Park Homebuilders, owned jointly by DCC and businessman Joe Moran, is for sale.

DCC has a 49% shareholding in the Dublin building firm, while founder Joe Moran owns 51%.

The owners have appointed Goodbody Corporate Finance and IBI Corporate Finance to carry out the formal sale process.

AdvertisementIn a statement today DCC said: 'DCC will sell its shareholding if a price is offered which, in the opinion of the Board of DCC, is in the best interests of DCC shareholders. A further announcement will be made in due course.'

Reports have valued Manor Park's land banks at €750m.

Recently filed accounts for the company show turnover increased to €148.2m in the year to the end of March 2006, from €117.8m the previous year.

Pretax profits rose more than 67% to €61.1m.



This effectively puts very high profile sites like the Kent Station redevelopment and the DeBlacham & Meaghar scheme on Dublin's Thomas Street on the market; one wonders will one of the larger Cork developers buy in or will the project at Kent evaporate.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby Pug » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:08 pm

[quote="PVC King"]This effectively puts very high profile sites like the Kent Station redevelopment and the DeBlacham & Meaghar scheme on Dublin's Thomas Street on the market]

Interesting. Good point, I wonder how that will affect the 276 apts at Kent station and more importantly the train station (as promised by M Cullen in Jan 2005). DCC must have been anxious then to get CIE tied in to the contract for Kent redevelopment so it would become part of their selling points. - on the flip side hte Manor PArk entity is also tied in to developing Kent Station for CIE but then again we dont know the contract terms i.e. how bound they are to do it. Might have been conditional on Manor Park getting permission for the 276 apts, and with 32 objections currently, we might be waiting.

Optimistic view - one single company swoops for all of Manor Park and in a fit of civic PR, redevelops the station properly.
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Re: Cork Docklands: Here We Go...

Postby kite » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:04 pm

[quote="lexington"]

This post will be broken into 3 sections detailling some recent and not so recent progressions associated with the Cork Docklands Redevelopment.

Section One: The Maxol Group entice prospective Docklands developers with Site Sale!
]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Section One: The Maxol Group entice prospective Docklands developers with Site Sale!

:o The Maxol Group, the Irish oil company owned by the McMullan family, have instructed agents CB Richard Ellis to offer their prime 0.3 acre docklands site bordered by the junctions of Centre Park Road, Victoria Road and Monahan's Road for sale. The site, which is zoned for Mixed-Use Development, stands and the gateway to the docklands proper and offers a fantastic opportunity to provide a building of prominence and stature which marks the entrance to Cork's South Docklands area. The closing date for Tenders is July 7th 2006, unless previously sold. The prospect of a striking landmark building is available to the successful bidder who may, subject to planning discussions, even avail of a slender, glazed tower element on the north-eastern corner of the site rising up to as much as 10-storeys (with the remainder of the development subject to the guideline height of 6-storeys). Justification for such a privision may be based on the site landmark/gateway location - subject to a strong design standard and planning discussions. However the Maxol site is also well positioned to form an important piece of a possible site assembly which may include the Shell Petrol Station to the south, yard to the west and warehousing again to the south - offering full sweep of this corner, gateway junction of Centre Park and Monahan Roads...............................................................




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kite 15th Feb.2007
:cool: Given City Manager, Joe Gavin’s reasonable ambition and commitment to kickstart the Cork Docklands redevelopment it will be interesting to see what view the city planners take of a planning application due to be lodged within days.
:o Northgate Van Hire, are to apply for the construction of a storage building and use of site as a van hire depot for the former Maxol storage facility, Centre Park Road for a temporary period of 3 years.
Such a low value use of a Docklands site, even on a temporary basis would do little to encourage potential or existing stakeholders.
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Re: cork docklands

Postby PVC King » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:32 pm

That would send out all the wrong signals.

If CCC approve this it could provide ammunition to those who call for the establishment of an independent Cork Docklands Development Authority as it is clear that temporary uses in such a gateway site don't stack up and will hardly sway the owners of neighbouring sites who are considering development.
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