You mean no-one explained to them that someone actually has to pay tax to keep their lifestyles going?FIN wrote:trying to rebuild the wall around the pale i hope.
ar maybe trying to dig the rest of the tunnel around it so it can be floated back to britain
That's a calm and reasonable way of putting it. I should just leave it there, but unfortunately I'm not in a calm mood.Thomond Park wrote:No-one has raised the costs of Galway or Sligo related projects of which the benefits of are equally specific to the location but are done in the interests of civic amenity.
Are you saying that Cork taxpayers should complain about Eyre Square?
Feel free to go on all you like. But be sure to make use of the regional income figures produced by CSO. They clearly show (page 13 of this attachment) that Western region households pay â‚¬1,093 million in tax, but receive â‚¬1,318 in social transfers. So you can be quite confident that any tax you pay stays local, along with an extra â‚¬225 million net in subsidies.FIN wrote:i know. it's terrible i pay tax for...
we have all been through this before so i won't go on.
Whatâ€™s bizarre is not just that Westerners seem to find it physically impossible to recognise the plain fact that they are subsidised by the East. They actually try to reverse reality by pretending that they make a contribution to national finances. Whatever facilities Dublin has, including those providing national services, have been largely paid for by its own residents.â€¢ A higher share of young people go to college than anywhere else in the country
â€¢ 56% of all 17-18 year olds in Galway and 55% in Mayo and Sligo go to college â€” compared with 44% nationally
Children also start out on the right foot as primary schools in the West generally have smaller class sizes.
Average pupil-teacher ratios in primary schools are considerably lower than in Dublin and surrounding counties e.g. an average of about 17 pupils per teacher in Mayo compared with 22 pupils in Kildare.
Typical Western evasion on being presented with the facts. What the nice stats presented by the Western Development Commission mean is that the West is educationally advantaged because of the public funds invested in the region. For example, I remember noticing last year that the Castlebar campus of GMIT had the distinction of being the only non-private third level college where the entry requirements for courses was a bare leaving cert.FIN wrote:that's a nice stat. we go to college more. what is your point there? i can only assume that you are saying that we are more intelligent. lower class sizes...it may be very true because there isn't that big a population here. )
Thatâ€™s because youâ€™ve opted for a dispersed settlement pattern, with all the social costs that implies. Cut down on the one-off housing, concentrate on developing one or two towns, and youâ€™ll start seeing a change.FIN wrote: our children have to get educated and go to college to get anywhere in life. and basically leave the region.
You make no net contribution, either looked at as a group or per capita. You receive a subsidy from central government â€“ which essentially means a transfer of resources from Dublin and the Mid East region. Your suggestion that Western taxpayers make a contribution to Dublin is simply wrong, and that is the core point I want you to concede. I donâ€™t have a problem with the idea that national resources should be shared. I just want to you to acknowledge the plain fact that this happens, and to give up your wrong and insulting suggestion that the Dublin region does not share its resources.FIN wrote:the reason we pay less is because there is less people here.
The Western Development Commission information confirms you are educationally advantaged compared to other regions.FIN wrote:we have less services so we pay less services charges.
It is simply a fact, based on CSO data, that this is the case. I cannot understand why, other that for reasons of pure embarrassment, you cannot simply acknowledge this plain, documented fact. After all, you were quick enough to suggest that Western taxpayers paid for the M50 although this is patent nonsense.FIN wrote:it is the sheer arogance to think that jackeens pay for the lifestyle we have outside the pale
This is simply not true â€“ all regions got a poke out of EU funds, while the cities suffered in the early part of our EU membership as traditional industries closed â€“ not having any benefit from CAP.FIN wrote: throughout the years all the european money has gone to improving the road network around the pale. i am not saying this is a bad thing as it is the capital and has the biggest population but don't tell me we are better off.
Earlier, you were complaining about people needing to leave the region. The process that includes one-off housing is one of the things that screws the West. If you see no problem with farmers selling sites, then please donâ€™t complain about the social cost.FIN wrote: it is true that farmers are getting paid to do nothing with their lands and can then sell sites off but why not.
As the CSO and Western Development Commission material documents, your statement is false on both counts.FIN wrote: they pay their way. not as much as others i admit but they don't get the same service.
Now you are adding bluster to evasion. The simple fact is that Western students have nearby colleges with lower entry requirements. This is clearly one of the reasons they have higher participation rates. Another is the higher level of resourcing at primary level.FIN wrote:ha,ha...you are so blinded my friend.
i thought firstly that the cao was country wide so everyone can avail of the 'bare leaving cert' ( whatever that means ) gmit castlebar campus. this campus happens to be in the west. so what!
i am not evading anything at all. and what facts? you said we go to college more. i suppose it doesn't fit in with yours and a lot like you that the culchies should live in thatched cottages and the like. it is that sort of ignorant shite that had this country on it's knees for 50 years. but it does remind me of a joke i heard.... what does the average dubliner call a culcie? boss.
You choose it through the local authorities that you elect.FIN wrote:we did not choose the settlement pattern as you suggest. it is borne out of necessity.
I'm not pushing anything on anyone. I'm simple saying you have to accept the consequences of the choices you make, and not blame what flows from your decisions on Dublin people.FIN wrote: why would you push your idea of a way to live on anyone else. your arogance has made you assume that your way is the only way.
I've already posted a link to the CSO publication that documents the fact that the Western region is a net recipient of state funds, so I really cannot understand why you have not conceded this point.FIN wrote: i said that i made a contribution to dublin. it is entirely true. as was pointed out in another thread and as you say it goes to centrral government. now if you can prove that every cent that i have paid goes into the west then by all means go for it
Your point about the infrastructure being lacking outside Dublin is frequently crowd pleasing, but utterly untrue. As has been said elsewhere, contrast the congestion at Dublin Airport with the way that the West is paved with underutilised airports. Infrastructure is only provided in Dublin long after the need has become critical, becuase of the petty begrudgery caused by any investment in the capital.FIN wrote:
i would be delighted to know that but also pretty pissed off as what did they spend it on? we have no proper roads. but this isn't just a western thing as you are trying to make it. this is all around the country outside the pale.i am from the west and living here,
Bizarrely, you said this in response to material I was quoting from the Western Development Commission in Ballaghaderreen. Like many people living in Dublin, I am well acquainted with the West, and the plain fact that it shows the benefits of the preferential treatment in receives. Unfortunately, people in the West seem less aware of the world outside their region.FIN wrote: ha,ha...have you ever visited the west or anywhere outside dublin. i would suggest a trip and go see some schools.
The social cost of one-off housing includes having a settlement pattern unsuited to attracting employment, which means people need to leave. You complained about people having to leave to find work, yet said you had no problem with farmers selling sites. Those sites would be used for one-off housing.FIN wrote:i wasn't complaining. i told the fact. i did myself but i was lucky enough that i could return. how does one-off house screw up the west? and i never complained about the social cost at all. i suggest you rerad what i type.
FIN wrote:( thomond park : i don't use patrick street in cork. that argument is utter nonsense just like your arguments in a previous thread )
UNDEMOCRATIC AND ANTI PEOPLE
The Irish Rural Dwellers Association was formed a year ago in order to safeguard people’s rights who have been refused planning permission in rural areas in this country.
It has been found that at a stroke of a pen vast areas of very valuable land in rural areas and villages have had value of such property reduced to nil and that even family members cannot get planning permission on their own land while housing and hotels can be built on The Ridge Pool in Ballina or on the Garavogue in Sligo.
Inside the year they have done quite a lot of research and have come up with interesting facts and have issued a press release on the matter.
IRISH RURAL DWELLERS ASSOCIATION
The Irish Rural Dwellers Association established a year ago to unite rural people in the face of mounting pressures on the future of rural communities, have exposed what may well be the main cause of refusals for houses in the open countryside and corresponding pressures to move people into towns and villages. Reaction against the entire planning regime as if affects rural houses is countrywide and large turnouts at IRDA meetings reflect the hurt, frustration and anger of ordinary people who can’t build houses for their families – often on family owned land.
“The planning regime is undemocratic, anti-people and out of control” says a spokesman for the IRDA. “A root and branch change is now essential including radical legislative change”.
Pointing out that the traditional Irish housing pattern based on the townland (baile fearann) stretching back thousands of years which is uniquely different from England and mainland Europe, has become almost entirely dominated by an English planning philosophy, the spokesman said that the IRDA are determined to see control of planning policy brought back to elected Irish politicians.
Until recently, Town Planners educated in Ireland graduated without any rural qualification. Available journals and planning literature are predominately English. Most graduates are accredited by the Royal Town Planning Institute (RTPI) in London. In addition, many Irish planners received their education in colleges in England.
Speaking at a public meeting in Macroom on June 23rd Kieran Lynch, ex senior planning executive and consultant lecturer, agreed with Jim Connolly of the IRDA, that the Irish Planning regime is UK influenced. “We have failed to produce an Irish planning philosophy so far” he said.
In An Bord Pleanala’s annual report for 2001, the Chairman John O’Connor states that the majority of extra resources (including 50 planners) brought in to cope with the increased workload are UK based.
As well, the RTPI have set up an Irish Planning Policy Panel with an office in Clare. A discussion paper published in July 2002 is intended to influence Irish Planning Policy. The RTPI have only three regional branches worldwide i.e. Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. When asked the reason for their Irish Planning Policy (they have no other such panel outside Ireland) a spokespersonf or the RTPI in London said “because of the long historical links between England and Ireland, because they don’t really consider Ireland to be ‘abroad’ and because they have so much members working in planning authorities in Ireland”.
“This is not a case of Brit bashing - The IRDA would be equally opposed to an alien planning philosophy being imposed on the Irish people from Germany, France or any other country” the spokesman said.
Individual planners have huge powers of personal discretion in recommending permission or refusal for houses. Inconsistencies abound everywhere. Concern for Irish culture and traditional rural community life is completely ignored in the current regime. It is further largely undermined by an influx of planners from many other countries around the world who make decisions in Ireland without any understanding of Irish traditions and without being obliged by the D.O.E. to do any course whatsoever in Irish history or related subjects before being allowed to practise here.
“The IRDA believe it is a small wonder that rural people and people wanting to live there are suffering, frustrated, angry and demanding change. They have lost all respect for planning authorities and see them as the successors of the landlords who tried to depopulate Ireland in the 19th Century.
“It is a very serious matter for democracy when people lose respect for institutions of the State or state sponsored private bodies like An Taisce. These institutions cannot function in the long term in any democracy without the respect and support of the tax payers who pay their wages.
The IRDA are running a conference on ‘Positive Planning for houses in the Open Countryside and Vibrant Rural Communities’ in Caherciveen on the 3rd and 4th of October. Details are available at 065-9058229.