Developments in Cork

Re: Developments in Cork

Postby malec » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:58 am

I took a good few photos the other day since I wanted to test my new camera so I decided to take a load of pictures of various places in Cork, a good few of which were of construction projects :D

The new school of music:

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Another piece of crap, I don't know what it's called but those tiny pvc windows are terrible, also the cowshed type roof sticking out doesn't help. I've seen these shed-type roofs popping on other buildings in other places, I've no idea why anyone would want a roof like that, maybe they want a bit of a country feel in the building :D

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New boole extension. Will have to see how it looks

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I can't remember what this one is, I even go to UCC but still don't know

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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby malec » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:59 am

I'm limited to 10 pictures so I have to make more posts, sorry.


More student apartments (they do seem infinitely better than the trash next door)

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Not related but I like this picture I took :D

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The new juries development. Pity about the taller part that was axed, they got rid of the only element that added some spice to this thing. It's OK now but way too uniform by my liking.

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City hall extension, a combination of some very good but also some very crappy elements, hopefully the end result will look OK.

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Can't remember that this is called but I remember commenting on it, looks good from this angle. Decided I wouldn't bother taking a picture from the other side :D

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Another building around that area:

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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby malec » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:00 am

Clarion, City Quarter and that O'Flynn Construction building (don't know what it's called). These 3 buildings look good together I think, not great but good. As you might have guessed I'm not a fan of uniformness and I think that some variation in height would have been nice. I'm not asking for a 100-storey skyscraper but the main critisism I have for the Dublin docklands is the uniform height and I hope this doesn't happen here too. I wouldn't mind seeing some more bold projects coming up though, something like that kennedy's proposal (really hope it gets built :D)

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Scultpure in front of the clarion:

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Across the bridge from the opera house:

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I've found that most people who have an interest in architecture like this building while everyone else hates it with a passion.

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And phase 2

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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby republicofcork » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:05 am

[quote="Spinal Tap"]Whats so interesting about the files on 6/7 Lapps Quay ?
Reading between the lines on your "rant" I think that you are upset with a.Planners. b.Politicians c.Architects.d.Developers.

I absolutely love Cork. It is an amazingly planned and designed city. It compared well with many classical cities of the highest quality. In pre industrialised times it was a significant city in European terms. Although later expansion was relativly slow the quality and variation of historic fabric is incredible and the subtelties are layerd. It uniquely has a great city centre developed mainly between 1700 and 1840 and a surrounding area that may accomodate incredible expansion and unique economic growth. The development plan is even good though perhaps not rigerous enough and we should be able to rely on it as a kind of contract, set up in conseltation with public opinion to protect all our interests and be a public charter between the city council and the citizens. But it isnt. It is constantly ignored by the Councellors in favour of bending the rules against the recomendation of planners. Why? Why would a City Manager want to hand over public space to a private wealthy individual in the centre of town? Why? What is the significance of their relationship. Why cant't somebody else have it? In the past a wealthy individual may have paid for the repair of the space to share some of his fortune with the city and the citizens but not now. Now its all about greed..........wealth and ego. How does the system allow this. Something is wrong with our democracy. What I am saying may be like a rant to you but try not to dismiss it just because I am passionate about something.

One of the problems in Cork is that we don't really have an active RIAI prescence in terms of shaping local government. I know that the Southern Region are very active here and that is a commendable thing. We also don't have an established school of architecture yet which in other cities has taken students to the streets over less serious issues and has as an entity taken issue with many things. A school of architecture may highlight areas and bring them to local attention in a positive way. None of this happens. The local press have had development interests in the city and generally do not critique anything except in a banal and middlebrow way. Cork is without protection. Developers do not repair broken areas of urban fabric they often create them. I look forward to the development of the an post site and many other ambitious projects but this should be going hand in hand with the careful repair and development of the historic area of the city as one of our greatest assets. Not handing it over to private individuals. Developing buildings in such a context is a delicate science and really, many completely inadequate people have been involved in doing so lately. Hertzog and de Meuron they ain't. Carlo scarpa they ain't. I think Harvey Normans had a better architect than the Merchants Quay Centre or 21 Lavitts Quay. I am ashamed to be from Cork and to witness this destruction because of the poor knowlege and ambitions of our City Council and City Management. The inadequecies are real and it is ok to say so. Is everyone into rolling over now because there is money around and we are all comfortable? The city council and the city management knows how to chat to developers and let them build buildings but does not know how to handle the historic fabric of Cork and in many cases doesn't recognise its value either culturally or economiically.

Simple question: WHY DOES THE CITY MANAGER SELL PUBLIC SPACE IN THE HISTORIC CITY CENTRE, ESTABLISHED AS SUCH FOR 300 YEARS, TO A PRIVATE WEALTHY DEVELOPER, AGAINST THE PUBLIC INTEREST AND THE GREATER GOOD, FOR 1 EURO?................................ Democracy working? IT STINKS.
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Re: Cork International Airport

Postby A-ha » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:30 am

Absolutely brilliant photos malec. I love all of them. That new camera of yours was a great investment. You should take a drive to the airport today..... first flight is due in a few more hours. I never thought the day would come. I can't wait to get out there, but I have no camera. :( Oh well, I guess I can have a coffee from Starbucks now that they are open. On a totally different subject, how is Dixons doing in Ballincollig. They never seem to advertise anywhere. Do people still go in there? :confused:
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby malec » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:31 am

I'm actually going to Finland tomorrow...




but from Dublin airport :D
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby d_d_dallas » Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:24 pm

Wow - Jurys was knocked down to be replaced by it's modern day equivalent. Awful.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kesey » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:20 pm

d_d_dallas wrote:Wow - Jurys was knocked down to be replaced by it's modern day equivalent. Awful.


Happily, I think that the picture of the new Jurys does the building an injustice. The bricks and mortar look considerably better than the photo which gives the edifice a very fragile and el cheapo look.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby THE_Chris » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:21 pm

lol who designed the new Jurys. What an idiot.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Radioactiveman » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:46 pm

OK, firstly I must commend Malec on his extensive photographic tour of some of the new developments around the City. That sort of thing, along with the heartfelt comments from RepublicofCork are what this thread needs to keep it lively and interesting.

With regard to RepublicofCork's comments, I don't know if I entirely agree with all of the points made. I'd agree that there seems to be certain very high profile cases where the advice of planners (both at CIty Council and ABP) has been completely ignored by the Manager. My own pet project, City Square/Lady's Well in Blackpool is a case in point. However, I think it is to go a bit far to suggest that because a decision was taken which was counter to the position you would take (or took), that there is wide spread corruption going on involving City Council and developers. I'm afraid I simply don't subscribe to the conspiracy theories and the demonising of developers as a group.
Cork is a merchant city and the vast, vast majority of what is now the historic stock of buildings which we should rightly protect were built by merchants/landowners or what we would now call developers. Developers (although it may not seem like it) have a limited budget with which to construct a building. They have no wish to get involved in lengthy, drawn out negotiations with planning authorities and they generally have no wish to disturb local residents. For that reason, most major projects in the city are of a reasonable standard when they reach Navigation House. Some are excellent and others are poor. To be fair, the majority of the rubbish is weeded out pretty fast. For example, the early proposals for the Capital Cinema site and the Cornmarket Centre site. What we're left with are solid, decent, mostly well designed buildings which add to an area. Whether you love them architecturally or not is not the point. You either like it or you don't: some love the new Carrolls Quay apartments, others don't. Some people (God help them) actually like the Victoria Cross apartments, others do not. I would argue that Victoria Cross was a bad mistake by planners, but I would not suggest that it was part of some conspiracy to scar that part of the City. Nobody needs the hassle of CSD, who quite reasonably, are on guard against other developments in the area.
Republic asks the question as to whether we are trying to "reinvent the city like Bristol or Newcastle or Barcelona?". And thats that problem: we hold up cities such as Bristol as some sort of utopia for architects everywhere despite the fact that there has been some terrible buildings constructed in these cities in the past few years. Not every single building in these cities are worldclass. Some are excellent, some are poor, most are average. Don't get me wrong, in our planning we should always strive for high quality, but we should not have unreasonably high expectations!

As for the 50/51 Popes Quay situation, there should be no railings there. Full stop. Even the planners agree on that. I'm not particularly bothered who "owns" the land. I'd suggest that it is not of much recreational use to the City, the most you could do is site a park bench there! Its use is as an open space in which to display the superb Civic Thrust building. I'd suggest we will see the unauthorised railings removed in the near future.

As for Jury's, its a very fine development. Exponentially better than its predecessor and will provide a pleasant vista heading west from the City Centre.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby GregF » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:49 pm

Any images of the new Cork airport terminal?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby a boyle » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:53 pm

no photos till ye cough up 160 million. :D :D
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby rebel_city » Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:47 pm

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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Radioactiveman » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:07 pm

<img src="http://www.corkairport.com/images/elevator_view.jpg">

<img src="http://www.corkairport.com/images/check_in_view.jpg">

<img src="http://www.corkairport.com/images/food_market_view.jpg">

<img src="http://www.corkairport.com/images/arrival_walk_view.jpg">

<img src="http://www.corkairport.com/images/baggage_belt_view.jpg">
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby dkebab » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:22 pm

Nice to see the bilingual signage in 'Aerfort Chorcaí'
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby republicofcork » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:09 am

radioactiveman it is true that most developers are well meaning but there are a few that consistently drive their projects in a worryingly self serving way. With this well maening could be a description for a psychopath too so it doesnt abslove people of responsability. The difference with what is occuring now and the past is in the scale of what is happening now. Before good and bad buildings were built and the majority of the fabric could have absormed the odd small scale misconceived building. Now developments are huge and act like an oil spill that is just too big for the environment to take without serios intervention. We do need to look at what architecturally makes up our city and we need to educate ourselves about it and respect it. Like it or not the two Victoria cross buildings that so many people hate have much more in common with the Civic Trust House in terms of design than almost any recent building in the city. They have a clay applied facade and flush windows and a severe minimalism based on careful proportioning of elements. All also use the best of known technowlogy of their time. U may hate them but these buildings are intellectually very similar to that tradition which is admired throughout the world as IrisGeorgian architecture and design. A quiet version of these buildings on Lavits Quay designeed by this Architect would be very welcome. Perhaps we could argue about the scale or location of the Victoria Cross buildings but given teir incredibly minimal detailing and proportions they are some of the best and most contextual buildings in the city. Their quiet simple form is Irish and it is humble and without overt devices or decoration. In all nature form does follow function. These buildings and the Civic Trust House are beautiful. 21 Lavitts Quay is a mutant. It is cheap and nasty and ignorant of its surroundings. It could barely be worse than it is. It is like the cheapest christmas decoration I have ever seen. That it sits in the same vista as St Mary's Church is a crime. The development at Jurys is only marginally better though lets face it how could it be worse. The architectural expression here is remarkably similar to that of the ESSO garage next door. Have a look at it. Perhaps O'Callighans are trying to be contextual after all!!!!! Ha Ha.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby macai » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:58 pm

Speaking of the new jury's it reminds me very much of the new Jurys Croke Park hotel with the same exterior finish which makes me wonder do jurys have a desgin standard for all their new hotels or is there a similar design team involved in the new Cork hotel. They tring to make their hotels the same no matter where you go.
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St. Nicholas' Church

Postby Radioactiveman » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:55 am

ABP have granted permission to Meteor Communications Ltd. for the retention of antennae and dishes within the steeple and bell tower of St. Nicholas' Church on Cove Street, Cork. This overrules the decision of the City COuncil who refused permission for retention saying it would, "compromise the integrity of the bell tower and steeple and introduce a stringent feature which would seriously injure and be out of character wit the important architectural features and the historic fabric of the structure."
The church building, which is a protected structure, has been deconsecrated and is currently undergoing conversion to office space for the use of the Probation Service.
The application sought to retain six antennae which were mounted in the top opes of the steeple, facing west, east and north; to retain microwave dishes at the second floor level behind new louvre screens of the bell tower; and various related fixtures and fittings.
The ABP inspector reported that the antennae were "conspicuous in the views from within the area and detract from the architectural integrity of the steeple. In effect, the antennae block up the openings, (from the inner side) and the material in which they are fabricated is incompatible with and detracts from the ashlar limestone fabric and decorative detail of the steeple. The removal and replacement of the existing louvres at second floor is considered an unessential removal of historic fabric. "
Despite the inspector reccomending refusal, the board overruled this, citing the need to improve the mobile communications network in the country.

Image of the steeple of St.Nicholas' Church, with antennae clearly visible in opes:
<img src="http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/4364/nicksvd8.jpg">
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Spinal Tap » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:26 pm

Speackin of antannae / dishes etc anyone notice the 2 sattelite dishes mounted on a pole on top of the newly refurbished County Hall ? Not much thought put into their location as they are a bit obvious and spoil the lines of the rooftop extension.
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Beamish and Crawford

Postby Radioactiveman » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:26 pm

The new railings at the Beamish and Crawford site on South Main Street have been mentioned here before. They are pretty appalling by any standards and detract hugely from what is a beautiful building. A poured concrete wall has been topped with bog standard galvanised steel railings, and then large square bars have been inserted in the gaps in between. Not alone those it look bad, it indicates some level of incompetence that the architect/engineer could not build a wall and find some railings to match.
They were being painted earlier today, so maybe there's more to come. I've attached some images of the monstrosity below.
Its a tiny point, but take a look at the fleur de lis on the large supporting bars- if these had been omitted the look of the whole thing might have been improved- at least everything would have been at a uniform height.
<img src="http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/4836/beamishwidebh0.jpg">

<img src="http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/6126/beamishclosebt2.jpg">
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Radioactiveman » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:12 pm

A decision is due to made by teh end of this month on Frinailla's plans for the former Good Shepherd Convent in Sunday's Well. The company submitted an application in February to construct 274 residential units in the former religious institution and its grounds. The original buildings are to be conserved, with modern extensions demolished to make way for 26 apartments in the building itself. Within the grounds, it is proposed to xonstruct 10 apartment buildings which range in height from 8 to 3 storeys. 10 3-storey townhouses are also proposed. A 3 level basement carpark is also proposed.
Further information was submitted by the company, after a request by the planning authority. This submission was made at the start of July. Third party submissions have also been lodged by a number of interested parties, including local residents and An Taisce.
The central part of the convent, including the chapel was badly damaged by fire a number of years ago, prior to Frinailla purchasing the site. This was after protracted attempts to obtain planning permission for a large number of student apartments on the site. The site was also previously owned by UCC who had some interest in making it the base for the university's Arts faculty.

<img src="http://www.frinailla.ie/dynamic_files/projects/images/convent1a47d1d6c.jpg">

<img src="http://www.frinailla.ie/dynamic_files/projects/images/convent24149fe2e.jpg">
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby daniel_7 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:32 pm

i just wanted to say that im really sick of these small minded people going on about putting a cap on building heights to 3 storys! This is a ridiculous theory and they should really come to there senses and realise that they are living in a CITY and these developments are inevitable and a city which is currently under a building boom and that in most cases the land prices wont make developments under 3 storeys viable and anyway where suited high rise buildings make a city more attractive and feel more like a city and if there going to proceed with there small minded theorys in which they dont like development really, cause thats what it comes down to, why dont they shag off and move to the country or evan to a town somewhere where their theorys will have some meaning! Are these people for real really!?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kite » Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:13 pm

corkdood wrote:Sorry for going off topic here but i am curious about a development that appears to be beginning on the Blarney Road just at the junction with Harbour View Road in Hollyhill there appears to be a new site entrance and earth moving work in progress. Is this to be a residential development?



The 200+ affordable houses under construction behind Our Lady’s hospital are to be complemented by some social housing units built by CCC with the entrance along the Blarney Road across from the Harbour View Road junction. Traffic lights are planned at this junction to ease traffic.
I think this may be the development you mentioned in your post.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby PVC King » Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:14 pm

Will the lights work or cause problems?


Daniel

The theory behind limiting height in this case is not that tall buildings should not be built per se in fact most locations are suitable for taller buildings and parts of the docklands could accomodate buildings as high as you like.

In this case the concern is that the Convent which is an attractive buildings would no longer be the dominent faeture in the local area and be obscured by buildings that are less attractive. The design of these ones seems good though and I'm sure there will be a premium over more mundane units being built else where.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Pug » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:19 am

republicofcork wrote:Perhaps we could argue about the scale or location of the Victoria Cross buildings but given teir incredibly minimal detailing and proportions they are some of the best and most contextual buildings in the city. Their quiet simple form is Irish and it is humble and without overt devices or decoration.


I am no architect nor designer, I play music so have some shred of creativity. Those buildings are absolutely AWFUL. Maybe the plan was that all the yellow bricks together makes up one giant yellow brick and the browny/reddy ones below it are worse. It was a glorious chance to 6/7 storey a fabulous gateway building. This business about keeping a city flat is in the dark ages. Its not feasible given the increase in sprawl. Although Cork is one of 2 cities where the population falls. Maybe the fact that there is nowhere to live in the 3 storey capped yellow brick buildings that are built. Its only my own opinion but they look dreadful. If thats the humble quiet simple Irish form then architect schools curriculum needs to be changed from the Wizard of Oz.
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