Developments in Cork

Re: Developments in Cork

Postby A-ha » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:27 pm

Do you know when PC World and Currys are to open? I've been wanting to know for ages, but can't find it on the net anywhere. :confused: Maybe he is on holidays, most people are this time of year. :rolleyes:
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby opus » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:47 am

Most people have probably seen these already but I only came across them recently. Both need IE to work properly.

Cork Corp planning inquiries.
Cork County Council Planning inquiries,

Both are map based & show you where has an application which you can then get full details of.
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Bachelor's Quay & New Pedestrain Bridge

Postby Radioactiveman » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:32 pm

Work is currently ongoing at the "Bachelors on the Quay" site on, funnily enough, Bachelor's Quay in the City to convert it for use by the Cope foundation for office, educational and training use.
Next door to this, an application for planning permission is due to be lodged by Cork Christian Trust for the remainder of the retail space in this mixed use development. Said retail space has remainded as empty as the rest of the building is ugly since it was built almost a decade ago.
CCT are seeking permission to convert the space; which fronts onto Bachelor's Quay and Grattan Street, for use as seminar, office, radio studio, cafe and reatil use. This would seem to tie in with the social/community based uses planned for the neighbouring unit and in the abscence of any likely retail activity at the site, is surely a welcome development. Anything is better than looking at those boarded up units.

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University College Cork have applied to CCC for permission to construct a new pedestrain bridge across the south channel of the river Lee, linking the Brookfield Health Sciences Complex on the south side of the river to the former Greyhound Race Track on the northern side.
UCC have permission to develop an Information Technology building at the Greyhound Track site. Issues of funding for this (IT building) project are still being sorted out.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby d_d_dallas » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:59 pm

Boarded up units are one thing - but North Main St does not need another charity shop.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Angry Rebel » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:36 pm

A-ha wrote:Do you know when PC World and Currys are to open? I've been wanting to know for ages, but can't find it on the net anywhere. :confused: Maybe he is on holidays, most people are this time of year. :rolleyes:


There is a planning notice in the Examiner today for the signage and ancillaries etc for both Currys and PC World in MP Retail Park.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby A-ha » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:51 pm

That's good. It means that they must be opening sometime soon. You're the only person that's answered me that question and I've been asking since before Christmas. :)
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby jdivision » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:02 pm

And about time too:

Micheál Martin TD, Minister for Enterprise, Trade & Employment today (Friday 28th July 2006) announced that the Government has approved the establishment of an interdepartmental project team, led by the Department
of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, to develop proposals for the
redevelopment of Haulbowline Island. The project will transform Haulbowline and the lower Cork Harbour making it an attractive place to work, live and do business.

Commenting on the announcement Minister Martin said “The project envisaged for Haulbowline would be among the largest projects in the State since the development of the Financial Services Centre in Dublin”

Commenting further Minister Martin said “This 44 acre site has the potential to be the most attractive waterside site in Europe. Haulbowline has unique attractions including the National Maritime College and the UCC Marine Research Centre. These and its longstanding marine traditions, will form the basis for a complete redevelopment plan which will:

Transform the environment in Cork, particularly in the Lower Harbour

Dramatically improve the quality of life for the surrounding communities in Ringaskiddy and Cobh

Allow for a more balanced employment mix between manufacturing, office and leisure jobs in the lower Cork Harbour

Among the type of facilities it could include are

16,000 square metres of office space
Approximately 200 apartments
A Marina with up to 225 berths and a Club House
A 300 bed Hotel
A Maritime Museum
A landmark building which would become a renowned feature for Cork as a whole.

Concluding Minister Martin said “ This project will be of huge significance not just to Haulbowline and the lower harbour area but to the city and county as a whole.”
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby phatman » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:32 pm

This for real?Wow!I'm excited...
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby jdivision » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:51 pm

it's for real
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby THE_Chris » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:44 pm

Excellent news :)
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby daniel_7 » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:39 pm

As it looks like horgan quay is going to get the event centre does anyone know what the story is with mahon point and the planned trade centre there? As im sure initial plans hade this under construction by now along with the leisure centre to the back but theres no movement at all? Is it true to that the planned hilton hotel is not going ahead either if the trade centre falls apart?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby THE_Chris » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:52 pm

I think they need to sort out Mahon points ridiculous traffic problems before they go stuffing more buildings there :)

Queue for Tescos went all the way from the entrance right back to the dual carriageway the other day. Crazy. Luckily I was going to B&Q.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Micko » Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:30 pm

Just wondering but could anybody find a picture of Merchants Quay pre shopping centre ?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby THE_Chris » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:54 pm

I dont have a pic, but I remember it being a bit of a run down hole there before they built it.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby d_d_dallas » Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:41 pm

The reason it was a "run down hole" is that the site assembly practically took decades to complete and hence the neglect.

The quay used look alot like Patricks Qy acros the river in terms of scale, but with more businesses fronting on to the quayside.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby phatman » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:55 pm

THE_Chris wrote:I dont have a pic, but I remember it being a bit of a run down hole there before they built it.


And after they built it...
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Radioactiveman » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:28 am

Micko wrote:Just wondering but could anybody find a picture of Merchants Quay pre shopping centre ?

Have been looking for one of those for ages. To no avail. The examiner published a picture in an article they did comparing the 'new' Merchants Quay and the old one, about a year ago. Sadly, I forgot to keep the picture.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby corkdood » Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:29 pm

Sorry for going off topic here but i am curious about a development that appears to be beginning on the Blarney Road just at the junction with Harbour View Road in Hollyhill there appears to be a new site entrance and earth moving work in progress. Is this to be a residential development?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby republicofcork » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:52 pm

Most developments in Cork are cheap and badly designed. We are building a short term future that will lead to problems for the next generations. We are also killing the character of our once beautiful city. We are killing our opportunity to be a considerate and beautiful travel destination. We are killing the future of our economy. We should be building high quality buildings not badly designed ones. The problem is we are not running a democracy here and we dont have even the expertese of our planning officers (if somewhat limited sometimes it is a valid system to protect the publics interest) to rely on. Cork is a subtle 18th and 19th Century Urban landscape.

New buildings require a certain response to this. A good designer will analise this and adhere to the rules to benefit the continuation of a masterful set of rules set down in the past few thousand years by experienced urban designers. But no we (some architects) know it all now and we dont need to analise history or respect existing urban environments. What is good for Serbiton is good for Cork. What is limited in the imagination of Developers is limited in the imagination of their architects. Developers are supported by the city managers office. Why does the University maintain a high standard but the City cannot. What we have in Cork is limited to the mediocraty of those running the City and those developing it. What we see are their, limited ambitions and their limited imaginations. Their greed and egos are leading the way for the future problems of our children and the destruction of this once beautiful place. We are not getting the architecture of the Tate Modern, we are getting the architecture of a buisness park in Serbaton. It has got to stop.

I have read numerous planning recommendations, by planners lately where their comments (constructive in many cases) are ignored and the planning applications are granted. Yes we should be promoting as much development as possible and creating a development environment but we should not just grant everything without looking at redesign or modification where inappropriate. The Council and City Manager should realise that they are destroying the city and should at least take the advice of the paid professionals that we are all supposed to rely on.

The Lonely Planet guide calls Irish people tacky. People in Dublin describe development in Cork as low class, plastic and tacky. We can hardly disagree with them.

Please look around at the stage set that is the centre of Cork and become aware of what was trying to be achieved by its original concept. Public bildings were clearly positiond and the general mass of buildings has a considerate calmness that creates a stage set of considerable grace and proportion. While the planners and architects are largely ignored, Cork is run by people who have no real education in the field of planning and urban design. Goodbye Cork. Hello Serbiton. Hello Marbella. Goodbye education. Hello ignorance. Goodbye democracy. Hello greed, deceipt and hello to corruption. We are not overestimating. There is no equality in Cork, no freedom, no brotherhood. There is no democracy. There is hardly a free or educated press. Recently the city manager sold a portion of the city centre on Popes Quay to a property developer to park his cars for 1 euro. Though the area is of significan value to the city as an open space. The Civic Trust supported this. They should resign.This was public land since its development in the 18th Century. Planning files have gone missing. It gets worse. Go and ask for the planning file for 6 and 7 Lapps quay in the Planning Department. See what you get. Go and look at the planning file for 21 Lapps Quay.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby kesey » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:11 pm

republicofcork wrote:I have read numerous planning recommendations, by planners lately where their comments (constructive in many cases) are ignored and the planning applications are granted. Yes we should be allowing as much development as possible and creating a development environment but we should not just grant everything without looking at redesign or modification where inappropriate. The council and city manager should realise that they are destroying the city and should at least take the advice of the paid professionals that we are all supposed to rely on.



republic of cork, please give examples of the recommendations of planners which were ignored. The City Manager has attempted to drag the planners out of the 18th century. They haved kicked and screamed and want to stay as unambitious and as unexciting as possible. The planners sadly have no wish to help in the creation of an exciting vibrant city. The cats' vomit at Victoria Cross - from the Victoria Mills to the excremental trident at the Kingsley - give no grounds for hope of imagination from our most illustrious planners.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Spinal Tap » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:16 pm

Whats so interesting about the files on 6/7 Lapps Quay ?
Reading between the lines on your "rant" I think that you are upset with a.Planners. b.Politicians c.Architects.d.Developers.

Apart from a few generalisations could you be more specific about which developers / developments ?

Compared to Dublin / Limerick / Galway and most of the UK Cork has escaped the worst of the building boom over the past 10 years and the central island area of the city is in good nick developing nicely apart from the obvious Merchants Quay / Bus Station and North Main St. shopping centre etc. eyesores.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby mickeydocs » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:57 pm

Peoploe in Dublin describe development in Cork as low class, plastic and tacky. We can hardly disagree with them.


Funnily enough this is how most people would describe developments in Dublin as well. This is a national problem and I agree with Spinal Tap that we have escaped the worst of it.

Kyrl's quay is my pet hate of the celtic tiger era developments in Cork. That Multistorey carpark should count as a crime against the people of Cork.

The University are far from free of blame, the science building is an absolute monstrosity, and houses the most uncomfortable lecture halls in the known world. (The geography building is class :) )
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby republicofcork » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:50 pm

kesey wrote:republic of cork, please give examples of the recommendations of planners which were ignored. The City Manager has attempted to drag the planners out of the 18th century. They haved kicked and screamed and want to stay as unambitious and as unexciting as possible. The planners sadly have no wish to help in the creation of an exciting vibrant city. The cats' vomit at Victoria Cross - from the Victoria Mills to the excremental trident at the Kingsley - give no grounds for hope of imagination from our most illustrious planners.


Lets face it the planners are only ok. the education of a planner doesnt really give a true appreciation for urban design or architecture and current zoning policies are creating enormouse social and transport problems. But the regeneration of the city is something they have been trying to work on. The city owns much public space and like it or not the regeneration of Patrick Street and the Grand Parade will help Cork. The repair and reinforcement of areas of public space is a tried and tested form of regeneration of cities. In combination with this simple buildings like Soho Bar on the Grand Parade will help to regenerate life and interest in the city. Thats what we are trying to do? Isnt it? Aren't we trying to reinvent the cist like Bristol or Newcastle or Barcelona? To give it new life?.............but we are not, we are handing it over to developers.

Look at the file for 21 Lavitts Quay. The recomendations of the planners and public professionals were to reduce the height of the building and relook at the architectural expression. This building has seriously damaged the continuation of the quay, the setting of listed buildings and the riverscape as a whole. It did not need to be that way and a sensitivly designed building here could have greatly contributed to the environment of the city and equally to the pocket of the Developer and the CV of the City Manager. In his wisdom though the City Manager ignored the appointed Government Professionals and in the interests of nobody but the Developer, who stood to make huge profits either way, granted permission for the building. Therefor the opportunity for the city generally to have a positive influence from this building has been missed and the protection we get however frustrating and even inept it might be from paid professional public servants is lost. So we have nothing but the taste and stupidity of a developer combined with the ego and self promotion of a Manager.........and the City will suffer long term. What a missed opportunity for the city and in reality a greatly missed oportunity for the developer. In the long run this crude building which is all vulgar show and no substance will not hold its value. This is example number One.

Here is number Two:
Railings went up in front of 51 Popes Quay in Cork City Centre, enclosing a piece of public ground. It is a wedge shape created by the straightening of the river which used to run at an angle. It is an exciting public space of huge potential to the city. The railings went up over Chrismas of 2005 while the Planning Dept was closed. Planning was sought to retain them and was reccomended for rejection for many reasons: style, planting, suburbanisation of the space, bad design etc and the fact that it enclosed public land for the private use of only one individual! This area is right in the centre of Cork.

The City Manager makes many mistakes by ignoring valid comment and professional recomendations on particular sites. The City council go along with this. It would be like the Government allowing the President to overrule one bill after another.

Sean Keohane is the owner of the property that railed off public land for his private car parking. He is a developer and is trying to develope other areas of the city.
The Civic Trust house is next door. It is an exceptionally rare building of about 1740.
The Civic Trust has not notably been active in Cork recently. It is run by John Miller. John has no training in architecture or history and is an Accountant. John likes to park his car in front of the Civic Trust house when he arrives at work. He might say the buildings are vulnerable and his experience is limited to the idea of providing railings. Railings and a car park for his car.

An application for planning to retain the railings at 51 Poes Quay and add them to the Civic trust house at Number 50 the Civic Trust house was made. It was approved by the City Manager ignoring the recomendations not to do so by the planning department.
The decision was appealed so the application was withdrawn by Mr Keohane and the Civic Trust. No doubt all parties knew that Bord Pleanala would not allow the transfer of public space to private use or the inappropriate design of the railings in proximity to an 18th C. building.

A new tack was presented...............the manager proposed to sell the land to Sean Keohane of 51 Popes Quay first, to presumably strengthening his situation in terms of planning to retaint the railings.
The manager argued to the Council and against protest..............it was voted to sell the land to Sean Keohane for....1 euro.

Having investigated the land from historic maps and from local people i am positive this area was always public space and used as such. When the civic trust house was being developed a few years ago it was left unfinished by the City Council.

This would not happen in say.....France, because they have a democracy, they do things in the interests of the greater good not the exploitation of public assets for individual people at the expense of others.

This situation is rotten to the core. It is entierly undemocratic and demonstrates the flaw in the City Manager system in Ireland and also the lack of any serious Civic Trust in Cork. Cork is being ripped to shreds at present. The sise of the city may limit it intellectually. We also have no free press as the local papers often have development issues themselves.

At the very least these actions are dishonest and are related to influence peddling? At worst they are much more and we may only imagine what else is going on. When will the government intervene as it has done so before on realising that the system is not working in Cork?

Lavitts quay has an extremely rare building that was once the Lavitt Gallery. Watch as the City Manager allows it to be destroyed. We are nearly the richest country in the world and we cant build well in an urban environment and we cant integrate our heritage with development. We are limited here to the single cow farm ambitions of a few unqualified people. It is a crying shame for our City and this Country and it will ensure the development of this country as a one City State and Cork as a place of provincial mediocraty. So many of us are ashamed of this City and those who represent us. We are ashamed because they don't represent us. They represent themselves.

Corruption is described as dishonesty.
Dishonesty is a term which in common usage may be defined as the act of being dishonest; to act without honesty; a lack of probity, to cheat, lying or being deliberately deceptive; lacking in integrity; to be knavish, perfidious, corrupt or treacherous; charlatanism or quackery.
Dishonesty is the fundamental component of a majority of offences relating to the acquisition, conversion and disposal of property (tangible or intangible) defined in criminal law.

corruption (uncountable and countable; plural corruptions)
The act of corrupting or of impairing integrity, virtue, or moral principle; the state of being corrupted or debased; loss of purity or integrity; depravity; wickedness; impurity; bribery.
Political corruption, corruption of a political system through bribery, intimidation, extortion, vote buying, destabilization, or influence peddling
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby ShaneP » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:32 pm

Great posts, republicofcork - I think there are a lot of people who would agree with your overall sentiments on developments in this country, but few who could express themselves as well as you have done here.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby malec » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:56 am

OK, first of all I'm not an architect or an architecture/planning student. I'm only a guy who's interested in this stuff but a complete amateur so I'm probably missing something. I don't get why people hate 21 lavitt's quay so much. Most people I know seem to like it and think it has nice details and such. I don't think it's particularly brilliant but it does take the attention away from the horrendous opera house. I actually wouldn't mind those houses in front being torn down (they look like they're in terrible condition anyway) to make way for a building with an element even taller than 21 lavitts quay. At 8 to 9 stories max that would make a nice peak between 21 LQ and the opera house.

Image


I agree that some really terrible crap is being built in Cork,

Image


and some even more terrible stuff

Image


but I do think there are developments which are quite good, far better than the two above. I really like what's been done with the county hall. It actually looks quite decent and about a million times better than what was there before. Sorry, I didn't take a picture of the top but I think it's got some nice detail now.

Image Image Image Image Image
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