Cork Transport

Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:43 pm

I agree the 10-20kms was laughable given the fiscal set up since 1995 or so.

MHenness

The NDP stated that you would have a full motorway to Dublin by years end, you currently have a dual carriageway to Wattergrasshill which leaves a 100 kms plus gap to Portlaoise
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:57 pm

thomond is of course selective in his information. The esri has previously warned us not to increase the rate of infrastructure provision because the economy is already so tilted towards building houses.

Indeed there is no denying (except thomond) that cork infrastructure is in much better shape now and moving forward .

As already point out the motorway round fermoy is nearing completion this year (early i think) and the michelstown relief road is done and of course the recently started chunk of motorway.

Corkonians should focus on my suggestion of canvassing for dual carriageways to have the central lanes segregated with plastic bollards , and the provision of comfortable buses, and bus stops in the center of the road , thus keeping other traffic seperated as much as possible. looking at the map of cork it seems ideally placed for a chicago styled central loop (on the central island) with offshoots in the different directions

there is no reason that a ten/ fifteen minute long journey between the airport and the city couldn't be done.

If i have it wrong thomond , what exactly would you do ?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mhenness » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:11 pm

Thomond Park wrote:I agree the 10-20kms was laughable given the fiscal set up since 1995 or so.

MHenness

The NDP stated that you would have a full motorway to Dublin by years end, you currently have a dual carriageway to Wattergrasshill which leaves a 100 kms plus gap to Portlaoise


It's been accepted by many for a long time that the original NDP timeframe was not going to be delivered on for roads. I'm not saying that this is acceptable but in fairness it is the first time a government in Ireland and our civil service have tried to plan such projects and it does take time to learn and get it right. I think they have this nailed now in relation to road projects. I would also like to see the records of other countries when they tried to deliver their road projects back in the 50's and 60's. Did they also have the same teething problems that our administrators have had?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mhenness » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:18 pm

Angry Rebel wrote:The Fermoy bypass will open in October.

The Cashel/Mitchelstown piece has been underway for over a month and will run from the Cork side of the Cashel bypass to a few mile the Dublin side of Mitchelstown.

Can anyone explain to me why we do new roads in 20 and 30 and 40 km sections. Would it not be more economical to tender for, say 150km? This would be a contract of sufficient size to attract large international groups who may be able to price more competitively on a large contract but wouldn't be interested in the bitty pieces currently on offer (unless as a minority partner in a joint venture led by an Irish firm).


I suspect it's partially to do with developers based in Ireland wanting it that way and maybe it was deemed way too difficult to get projects of the size you suggest through the planning process here since anyone on a whim can decide to object. :rolleyes: I do agree that we should have much larger projects.
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Re: a boyle

Postby Angry Rebel » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:20 pm

Providing infrastructure is not the same thing as building houses, and in fact, given the high level of housing provided, there should be accelerated delivery of infrastructure to support these developments. This means roads, public transport, schools, medical facilities, public space and much more.

Dedicating central lanes is one of the more pointless ideas I've heard in a while. For a start, having an increased number of pedestrians in the centre of the road, who must cross lanes of traffic to access the central median to leave or enter buses is dangerous and disruptive to traffic flows. Furthermore, there is space to run buses in those lanes, but generally not enough to provide a safe and comfortable boarding area.

Re motorrways: 3 years of a delay in delivering a road of only 160 miles is laughable, and something you would not see in most other developed countries. You must wonder who was in charge of making sure we had the expertise, the knowledge and the gumption to put their hands up and say, "Hang on, we don't know what we're doing here, let's talk to someone who's done it before".
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:25 pm

i think too if you built the motorway from dublin to cork in one go , then you could not open it up in stages ... . You would be talking about a 7 / 8 years build not a nice prospect for a government that has to look for a new job contract every five ...

It is probably all in all much in a muchness. Since brennan redid the contracts the motorways have been progressively built quicker. look at the nra, site and you will see that they have a fair bit on their plate all over the country.

Now whether it was a good idea to build a motorway between dublin cork limerick and galway that is another discussion...
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Angry Rebel » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:30 pm

There's no reason why it couldn't be opened in stages! They could build sections sequentially and open as they go or build in parallel and allocate resources in decreasing proportion as they reach the centre.

ie Apply 30% resources to the 60 miles out of Dublin (the busiest and containing the busiest bottlenecks of Kildare/Monasterevin/Abbeyleix)
30% to the 60 miles out of Cork (next busiest and containing the bottlenecks of Fermoy, Mitchelstown and Cashel)
40% evenly across the quieter sections in the middle.
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Re: a boyle

Postby mhenness » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:34 pm

Angry Rebel wrote:Providing infrastructure is not the same thing as building houses, and in fact, given the high level of housing provided, there should be accelerated delivery of infrastructure to support these developments. This means roads, public transport, schools, medical facilities, public space and much more.

Dedicating central lanes is one of the more pointless ideas I've heard in a while. For a start, having an increased number of pedestrians in the centre of the road, who must cross lanes of traffic to access the central median to leave or enter buses is dangerous and disruptive to traffic flows. Furthermore, there is space to run buses in those lanes, but generally not enough to provide a safe and comfortable boarding area.

Re motorrways: 3 years of a delay in delivering a road of only 160 miles is laughable, and something you would not see in most other developed countries. You must wonder who was in charge of making sure we had the expertise, the knowledge and the gumption to put their hands up and say, "Hang on, we don't know what we're doing here, let's talk to someone who's done it before".


Do you know for a fact that similar issues have not appeared in other developed countries when they were trying to role out their motorway network?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Angry Rebel » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:43 pm

Do you?! Sorry, my mother always told me not to answer a questions with a question. However, whether the mistakes were made in other countries is exactly the point!!

1 - If no mistakes were made then clearly those countries really had their sh*t together and we should have spoken to and learnt from them.
2 - If the mistakes were made,I don't care that France or Italy wasted their own money (or the EUs) but it means that people/agencies were out there to consult on lessons learned on similar projects.
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Re: a boyle

Postby a boyle » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:47 pm

Angry Rebel wrote:Providing infrastructure is not the same thing as building houses, and in fact, given the high level of housing provided, there should be accelerated delivery of infrastructure to support these developments. This means roads, public transport, schools, medical facilities, public space and much more.

Dedicating central lanes is one of the more pointless ideas I've heard in a while. For a start, having an increased number of pedestrians in the centre of the road, who must cross lanes of traffic to access the central median to leave or enter buses is dangerous and disruptive to traffic flows. Furthermore, there is space to run buses in those lanes, but generally not enough to provide a safe and comfortable boarding area.


building houses is not the same as building roads. but roughly twice as many people are employed building things as is appropriate. And so the esri advised the government to ease of infrastructure till it has built all the houses it wants to .

No you are plain wrong about central lanes. they are a great idea. The disruption to other traffic is minimal because roads have to have pedestrian crossings anyway. The improvement is huge , because the bus is not blocked by anybody else so you get reliable journey times . The bus being segregated can drive consistenly fast (30/40 miles an hour). And the route can take a much higher frequency of buses no doubt 2 minutes between each bus is doable.

You also are able to do the whole city in one go instead of piecemeal. So it is entirely realistic to go from the shite you call public transport now , to four /five routes operating right across the city with very high frequency of service and huge increased capacity. Thus you force people out of there cars because it is in everyones interest. But you are able to force people out of their cars because from day one you have a full system.

Through the use of smart cards you can then start to analyse where people are going and coming so that you can plot where you will need to upgrade to a tram in the future.

for cork what would work very well would be to reserve south mall / lapps quay , merchants quay/lavitts quay, and corn market street grand parade. You put stops to the north west and south (the east stop is the current bus station) pick four five routes and have them lead on to this circular route, with the buses stopping at all four stops before returning where they came from. just like chicago.

Sorry but what could you do that is better?
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Re: a boyle

Postby Angry Rebel » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:58 pm

a boyle wrote:building houses is not the same as building roads. but roughly twice as many people are employed building things as is appropriate. And so the esri advised the government to ease of infrastructure till it has built all the houses it wants to .


What are you talking about?

a boyle wrote:The disruption to other traffic is minimal because roads have to have pedestrian crossings anyway.


Nonsense. There are more bus stops on a route than existing pedestrian crossings! Think about it.

a boyle wrote:Sorry but what could you do that is better?


I'm not saying I have all/any of the answers. I'm just being Irish and rubbishing part of yours ;) . The Chicago model looks sensible. Cork having a compact city centre would make it work, and it avoids people getting on the number 2 to mahon and ending up lost on the Northside. My problem with your love for segregated lanes is we often don't have the street width that countries where these things work do. Granted the streets you quote are wide, but the consequences for all other traffic would be dire. I'm not car centric, you must have a balance of both, but removing that much road space from narrow roads would be a disaster.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby jdivision » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:12 pm

a boyle wrote:one single airport in the center of the country would be a great idea.
.

Welcome to a recession. :rolleyes: Do you genuinely think a multinational would locate in Ireland if that happened. We have enough trouble getting them to locate here when they travel by car into the city centre after landing at Dublin Airport.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mhenness » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:34 pm

Angry Rebel wrote:Do you?! Sorry, my mother always told me not to answer a questions with a question. However, whether the mistakes were made in other countries is exactly the point!!

1 - If no mistakes were made then clearly those countries really had their sh*t together and we should have spoken to and learnt from them.
2 - If the mistakes were made,I don't care that France or Italy wasted their own money (or the EUs) but it means that people/agencies were out there to consult on lessons learned on similar projects.


Check out this website:

http://www.iht.org/motorway/page1.htm

It is an archive which contains quite a lot of information about the development of the UK motorway network. As you read through it you begin to see a certain resemblance to what is going on today in Ireland in terms of what it takes to get a motorway developed. Keep in mind that Ireland has only recently had the resources to develop such a network and a lot of resources are needed to bring in the expertise you talk about. Even the M25 was built in a piecemeal fashion and took ages to complete. Remind you of the M50?
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Re: a boyle

Postby a boyle » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:36 pm

Angry Rebel wrote:What are you talking about?

I am talking about an ESRI report which came out last year i think . The basic jist was (is) we have twice as many people in the construction industry as we ought to. Accelerating spending on infrastructure would exacerbate this. They wanted the government to wait until construction of houses naturally degins to decrease before cranking up the spending on infrastructure. Thus to try to keep a lid on the number of construction worker.

Angry Rebel wrote:Nonsense. There are more bus stops on a route than existing pedestrian crossings! Think about it.

Yes but there are also crossroads all over the place. So there is always a point when cars are stopped to allow other cars to move. during these times pedestrians can cross roads without affecting the flow of traffic. One very good example of this is the mad cow roundabout in dublin where the tram crosses lanes but does not hold up cars anywhere. Think about it. Besides you would not just be providing a little bit of bus capacity , you would provide space for half , two thirds? of commuters , drastically reducing the number of cars.



[quote="Angry Rebel"]
I'm not saying I have all/any of the answers. I'm just being Irish and rubbishing part of yours ]

You do have some wide streets. We are not after all the first monkeys living in an old city to realise that we needed to find some transports solutions. Firstly narrower buses are available (they are made longer to keep the number of seats the same). Secondly you don't have to have four lanes every where. You can selectively close rights of way, and traffic patterns to keep cars away from bus routes.

The beauty of this whole idea is that you do the whole city in one go. That way every can see the immediate benefit of necesarry pain. Other wise if you build one bit of a bus lane between wilton and the city say . everyone along the route is inconvenienced and won't see much benefit because wilton and the city center are not the only places these people drive to.

Think about it . if you don't do this you will still be sitting in your car giving about about some new shagging magic roundabout in five years and probably ten years.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:43 pm

Angry Rebel wrote:There's no reason why it couldn't be opened in stages! They could build sections sequentially and open as they go or build in parallel and allocate resources in decreasing proportion as they reach the centre.

ie Apply 30% resources to the 60 miles out of Dublin (the busiest and containing the busiest bottlenecks of Kildare/Monasterevin/Abbeyleix)
30% to the 60 miles out of Cork (next busiest and containing the bottlenecks of Fermoy, Mitchelstown and Cashel)
40% evenly across the quieter sections in the middle.



Well if you open it up in stages then surely your are defeating the purpose of building in one go? are we not building in stages ?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Angry Rebel » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:05 pm

a boyle wrote: Well if you open it up in stages then surely your are defeating the purpose of building in one go? are we not building in stages ?


No...you don't. Having a reduced number of very large contractors doing fewer schemes:

    brings economies of scale to the project which could reduce costs and build times

    allows for better coordination e.g the "new" Cashel bypass currently being torn up at the Cork end only shortly after being finished to tie in the new Cashel/Mitchelstown scheme.


Regarding the buses, airports and most of your other contributions, I'm going to mirror Thomond and just agree to disagree. I think you're wrong on many of your ideas. You think you're right. Not the end of the world.

In case you lose the plot completely and come after me, I'm not anti bus and I think you're right on buses being a quick win and easy solution, especially as rail planning takes even longer than most major transport infrastructure. Cork needs and deserves a better bus system. What form that takes and how it's delivered is the rub.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:17 pm

Unfortunately with transport , people get the impression that there are different solutions to the problem. Often they think that there own ideas are so fantastic that everyone elses are just ridiculous. i would not fall into such a category, no no.

having been to scores of cities , those that work do things similar to what i am proposing , and those that don't do things the way dublin has done.

It is more a case of i am right, it is obvious and when you agree we can set up do it. As opposed to i have a solution, you disagree and we will continue to muddle through. Then maybe in twenty years when there are three tram lines in cork we will think about making it harder to drive around.

Not impressed
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Angry Rebel » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:31 pm

I think you should try anyone from this page.

Don't worry, you can get better.
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Quick Win Solutions

Postby jungle » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:50 am

While potential light rail and other developments are hugely important to the future of the city, I'd like to hear a few ideas for what can be done to improve the situation immediately. Essentially, these are things that cost very little to implement and can be in place rapidly. Even bus lanes take time to build and I'm talking about measures that could be in place within 6 months if the will was there.

So, here are a few starters
  • Pana for public transport only - This was the plan anyway, but with the building works on Grand Parade, it's even more relevant. Traffic is queuing back onto Merchant's Quay and Parnell Place and snarling up the city centre. Buses are getting stuck in huge delays making them less attractive as an opttion and also meaning that frequency isn't what it might be
  • Buses not to remain idle in the city centre - Again, a bus that's sitting on Patrick St waiting is one that could be used to increase the frequency of the bus service. It makes a mockery of the idea of cross-city routes.
  • Extend the 6 - When it goes into town, it should go to MacCurtain St and the train station too. On the other side, it could servce the industrial estates by Musgraves, but more importantly could link Douglas and Grange to the airport. Regardless of airport passengers, there are a large number of people who commute from the Grange are to the business park daily.


The last of these might require investment in extra buses, but overall, I reckon there could be significant benefit derived for little investment. More importantly, they could be achieved quickly.
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Re: Quick Win Solutions

Postby Pug » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:34 am

jungle wrote:While potential light rail and other developments are hugely important to the future of the city, I'd like to hear a few ideas for what can be done to improve the situation immediately.


6 Route in Grange should also go the other way, i.e. an express bus from Grange that goes down towards Kinsale Rd roundabout and in to town that way, the amount of people that get passed on the 6 route in the mornings makes the route ridiculous as the bus is full already. (The 6 did go to McCurtain St I thought once upon a time but had the weird situation that it stopped outside easons for about 10 mins so you ended up walking up there quicker).

Green route on Donnybrook hill needs to be continued in to the village (and the village made one way) rather than the very pointless curent situation where the bus then blocks all the traffic behind it at the school.

Pana traffic free definitely but the only route from say douglas to blackpool /mallow rd is through the city unless you go up silversprings and around that way, so cars have no option. Also removal of most of the bus office will get rid of huge coaches pulling out on to a main rd and maybe leave the bus office as a hub while the core goes to horgans quay (hurry up CIE).

There should be queues of buses to pick people up from the airport, I thought it would be fundamental.

There is a definite bus bias here, given that I would be stunned if light rail appears in the next 10 years. I thought Cork was due to get a fleet of smaller shuttle buses at some stage, like the IMPs in Dublin, more frequent and more of them would be perfect for Corks size. You cant even get a bus after 11.30 at night to major suburbs i.e. nightlink which is a complete joke as you have to get a taxi which is €3.50 just to sit in to (and they are on strike for more money - fair play).
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby A-ha » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:15 pm

Check out these pictures of the new terminal. Excellent shots. Check 'em out.
http://www.flyinginirelandmagazine.com/photo/displayimage.php?album=12&pos=0
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby A-ha » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:36 pm

Will someone please tell me what the story is about all these rumours to do with Ryanair buying land in Killeagh where the Old Aerodrome used to be? I've heard talk about it everywhere, but nobody seems to know the full story. From what I hear so far, they are planning to use it as an airport. Without laughing, can someone gimme some more info. It sounds so crazy I can't believe it, but I've it heard from lots of different people. (I've posted this in both the Developments and Transport threads...... I really want to find out as much as possible).
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PTB » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:32 am

I heard recently that the Mitchelstown Bypass, which was due to begin construction sometime at the start of 2007 has been put off for two years or so due to difficulties related to funding. Great.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mhenness » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:17 am

PTB wrote:I heard recently that the Mitchelstown Bypass, which was due to begin construction sometime at the start of 2007 has been put off for two years or so due to difficulties related to funding. Great.


Where did you hear that exactly? If this section of the N8 is held up I very much doubt it has to do with funding since from 2007 money is coming on stream from Transport 21. Even so, there is a guaranteed funding envelope for roads from the Dept. of Finance. Given that big projects are being completed this year such as the Port Tunnel, this should see more resources available to start new projects. As far as I'm aware this piece of new roadway is already through the planning stages at this point so I don't see why it should be held up. The only thing I can think of is that because the Mitchelstown Relief road is complete that the NRA might want to prioritize other projects since this bottleneck has been improved. Saying all that, if the project begins in mid 2008 like you suggest, I don't think it would be impossible to have it completed by the end of 2010 which is when the government claim the entire inter-urban network will be finished.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby MrX » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:35 pm

Regarding the earlier debate about cork airport:

The suggestion that Cork should close in favour of a rail link to Shannon is so far fetched that it's almost madness. That's simply not how air travel works. People want to go from point to point. Cork's a seriously large area with catchement that includes the Cork/Kerry tourism region which sees something like 4 million visitors a year. On top of that it has easy access by car to the southeast (waterford etc) and the south midlands via the N7/N8 AND it has a rail link via Kent station + bus feeding in a whole load of potential passengers who live along the high-speed Cork Dublin rail line.

If anything shannon's the one that's not viable in the long term. I think shannon may well shrink down to being a much smaller airport as time goes on.

As for building a Cork-Shannon high speed rail shuttle service. Have you ANY idea how much that would cost?! If you were to build a service that could actually link it quickly in a way that would replace the airport you'd be talking about building a TGV line.. and spending probabally a figure more like 1 billion euro.

Cork Airport will rapidly reach capacity.. just watch this space!
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