Cork Transport

Re: Cork Transport

Postby daniel_7 » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:37 pm

yer all talking about a topic that’s never going to happen in a million years and i don’t get why ye would want Cork airport to shut anyway whatever yer reasons! I think the topic should be about Cork airport getting a rail service to the city centre! The new terminal looks fairly impressive even before opening and the council should really think about providing a light rail service here to complement it and i know one councillor with a bit of ambition is fighting for it! When you here all this talk about people arriving into Cork airport and heading out of the city straight away! One of the reasons for this has to be that there was no proper service to the city centre and I know that sky link have set up and fair play to the fella and i hope cie don’t force him out after providing a half ass service for years! But if you think of it, every modern city airport should have a rail service to the city centre and especially Cork as it is close to the city and I really think this would encourage more people to stay in the city for a break if there was a light rail service from the terminal to the city centre! Apart from this aside Cork should learn from Dublin and should get it in motion now rather than waiting for the traffic to just get worse and eventually just cost more in the end to get up and running anyway, a service to the airport could go trough maybe togher and out that way and there should really be a service to caragaline(the most car dependent town in the country, but how really a suburb of cork) which could go through the douglas area as well which has more than enough of a population to cater for this not to mention ringaskiddy! And I know the green party have vowed to provide a service for Cork if elected but that’s never going to happen! I just dont think most of the city councillors think big enough when doing there job and always stick to the little topics like anti social behaviour and the likes, and dont get me wrong i know this needs to be done but all im saying is they never seem to think outside the box. I think this is mainly down to the way society has gone in recent years and as a result the way cork has developed in recent years and I think the young people of today down the line in a couple of years when they are elected to be councillors will be thinking more like this and how to keep developing the city to be a modern European city and wont be hanging about on all the small topics every week making it look like there doing more than they actually are!
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:34 pm

daniel_7 wrote: yer all talking about a topic that’s never going to happen in a million years and i don’t get why ye would want Cork airport to shut anyway whatever yer reasons!


Here here



daniel_7 wrote: I think the topic should be about Cork airport getting a rail service to the city centre!


I totally agree


daniel_7 wrote: The new terminal looks fairly impressive even before opening and the council should really think about providing a light rail service here to complement it and i know one councillor with a bit of ambition is fighting for it! When you here all this talk about people arriving into Cork airport and heading out of the city straight away! Apart from this aside Cork should learn from Dublin and should get it in motion now rather than waiting for the traffic to just get worse and eventually just cost more in the end to get up and running anyway, a service to the airport could go trough maybe togher and out that way and there should really be a service to caragaline(the most car dependent town in the country, but how really a suburb of cork) which could go through the douglas area as well which has more than enough of a population to cater for this not to mention ringaskiddy!


Well I wouldn't take Dublin as a model at all as the delivery of two lines costing almost 3 times the original budget and not connecting is exactly what you would want to avoid. That said Luas has been received very well since it has come into operation and it has proven that where a sleek attractive public transport option is made available it will entice people away from their cars. I am sure that a similar system for Cork would enjoy better project management and deliver a similar quality project at an equal or lesser cost per kilometre. The key as Luas has proven is getting the initial spine in which in this case would be to the Airport and various extensions could then be delivered on a phased basis.


daniel_7 wrote: I think this is mainly down to the way society has gone in recent years and as a result the way cork has developed in recent years and I think the young people of today down the line in a couple of years when they are elected to be councillors will be thinking more like this and how to keep developing the city to be a modern European city and wont be hanging about on all the small topics every week making it look like there doing more than they actually are!


In fairness Cork already feels like a modern European City as it has some very impressive civic spaces such as Pana Emmett Place and a refurb for Grand Parade would be impressive. Having said that a focussed bunch of young turks could really deliver another level again.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:19 pm

fine no problem , build a tram (you don't need it - a airconditioned bus network would be a better idea) , but don't ask dublin to pay for it.

And moreover pay for your own airport terminal , thank you very much
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:40 pm

I imagine that you are running the risk of being banned for trolling A Boyle;

In the interests of clarity I will however rubbish your nonsense.

Buses will not work for three reasons firstly motorists ignore them by clogging up bus lanes and clearways both parking and driving in them. Secondly speed for whatever reason in this country it is felt appropriate to place a bus stop every 100 yards and as such journey times are simply too slow. Thirdly from the demand side buses are stigmitised as the poor mans transport and even if you had coaches with 30 leather armchairs in them they do not attract people out of their cars in the same numbers.

Re Cork Airport; The new terminal and ancillary works have cost €160m the retail element will generate a rent roll of at least €3m per year with the car parking will probably generating a similar sum. The key issue here is that Cork Airport is viable and can make operational profits; in contrast the Ashbourne By-pass which serves a couple of thousand commuters living in Co Meath costing

N2 Ashbourne Bypass/M50 Junction The scheme involves the construction of approximately 3.5 km of a new dual three lane carriageway with hard shoulder, approximately 13.5 km of a new dual two lane carriageway with hard shoulder and 1.5 km of new dual two lane carriageway without hard shoulder. The scheme also includes 16 bridge structures, two grade separated interchanges, four at-grade roundabouts and approximately 6 km of minor road works. The scheme is being progressed as a Design & Build contract and construction by Jons Sisk JV commenced in May 2004. The scheme was officially opened by An Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern TD, on 25th May, 2006.


The N2 Ashbourne/M50 Junction provides for a new 17 km high quality dual carriageway extending from Finglas to north of Ashbourne, which will be bypassed. The construction contract is valued at ¤93.5m (inclusive of VAT). The Authority anticipates that the all-in cost of the scheme will be ¤207m when planning and design; land acquisition and other costs are included.

Mr. Malone said, "The scheme, which will effectively bypass Ashbourne, is welcome news to motorists who experience daily congestion along the N2. Off peak 10 minutes will be cut off journey times, with the time saving increasing significantly during peak periods. One of the most important aspects of this scheme is the increased safety for drivers. The predicted accident rate for the new dual carriageway is less than a quarter of the accident rate on the existing N2 between Finglas and Ashbourne. The bypass will also greatly enhance the quality of life not just for motorists but also for the residents of Ashbourne.


I wonder how much the residents of Ashbourne should pay?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:15 pm

for disagreeing with you thomond ? hardly .

The good people who use the new ashbourne road should pay for every penny spent , with a nice juicy toll .

regards buses , your defeatist attitude, while unsurprising , is depressing. Aircoach seems pretty popular to me. I think you have misconstrued ,current shoddy practise with potential.

With respect to a transport connection between cork airport and cork city.
Reserving the two central lanes on the south link road , and segregating them from the other lanes through the use of those little plastic bollards, would sort out any encroachment problems.

Regards comfort (stigma) the use of airconditioning would sort that out.

Regards capacity. have a look at http://busexplorer.com/PHP/MidPage.php?id=870
http://www.vanhool.com/products_bus_detail.asp?TabID=3&ID=13&ProductCategoryID=1

The second link shows a vehicle with potential for doorways on both sides of a bus.

This opens up the prospect of in effect building a service very close to that of a tram (with faster times , as buses are permitted to go faster). With stops in the center of the road and at the edge of the road.

I would also point out that much of the discontent that exists with any public transport is due to the lack of airconditioning (luas included).

Finally trying to maintain that buses don't work because there are too many bus stops is retarded. Nothing works if there are too many stops , be it tram train or bus.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:31 pm

for disagreeing with you thomond ? hardly .


I hope for your sake that you are trolling and really do not think that you will get anywhere by telling people on a thread dedicated to a particular City that they must put their begging bowl away. I'm sure someone will coreect me on this but doesn't Cork generate 31% of the Country's GDP?

The good people who use the new ashbourne road should pay for every penny spent , with a nice juicy toll .


If the toll didn't go in day 1 it isn't going in ever unless a compuerised road pricing scheme is introduced nationwide.

regards buses , your defeatist attitude, while unsurprising , is depressing. Aircoach seems pretty popular to me. I think you have misconstrued ,current shoddy practise with potential.


I have not dismissed buses totally but it is a recognised fact that trains are more popular look at the user figures for the Luas Green Line and the predecessors on the Route such as the 44 48A etc. There is no way you would ever get people in formal wear to take the bus but it is a common sight on Luas and Dart in the evenings.

With respect to a transport connection between cork airport and cork city.
Reserving the two central lanes on the south link road , and segregating them from the other lanes through the use of those little plastic bollards, would sort out any encroachment problems.


Not going to happen the AA and chamber of Commerce would kick off wheras a Luas would have the enthusiatic backing of most if not all stakeholders.



As stated above in relation to the 44/48A there was plenty of spare capacity on these buses at all but peak times having more empty buses or larger empty buses solves nothing.

Finally trying to maintain that buses don't work because there are too many bus stops is retarded. Nothing works if there are too many stops , be it tram train or bus


Do a comparison of the number of stops between the 44/48A and Luas Green line and it becomes obvious why one reaches Sandyford in 22 minutes and the other takes 45 minutes to do the shorter journey to Ballinteer, the constant stop start drives the time up signifiacntly.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:52 pm

exactly how does the 48a route relate to what i propose ?

The 48a bus comes every twenty minutes, shares the same road space as cars vans trucks etc. etc. It also doesnt have priority at traffic lights. Because the prepaid tickets are difficult to get and unreliable , almost everyone pays when boarding.

Trying to compare this with a double articulated airconditioned bus which is segregated from traffic sitting in the center of a road, with bus stops in the center of the road (like a tram), and using the same ticketing system as the luas is beyond retarded . Dim in fact.


As the aircoach is successful, it points to you being tottally wrong about people refusing to use buses.

People will use what works .

With respect to cork airports debt. If this new terminal is so rooted in economics sense and not a pure piece of government pork , then why oh why does my irish times repeatedly tell me that i will have to pay for cork airport debt, through higher landing charges ? Could you please explain that one to me in one sentence.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:17 pm

The aircoach has typical ridership figures of 8-10 per coach every 15 minutes; the aircoach from Cork to Dublin I was on was much more successful with 22 people on it leaving Cork there were 12 still on the bus when it left Mitchelstown and 4 further passengers boarded en route to Dublin journey time 4 hours 30 minutes vs 2 40 on the train which had 9 coaches and people standing from Thurles in bound.

A Boyle articulated buses have failed miserably in Dublin and have been replaced as the latest gizmo by tri-axle buses; Dublin is still a Medieval City and Cork is little different.

You have further failed to address the attraction of light rail and commuter trains as against the image of buses as being the poor mans transport.

In relation to Cork airport being a Pork barrell it is only perceived as such because when the change from the centralised Aer Rianta model to splitting into three independent airport Authorities some genius decided that Dublin would be lumped with all the debt.

That approach is plain wrong and it is clear to me that Cork should shoulder some of the outstanding debt and that the taxpayer will have to write off a large chunk in relation to Shannon which in my opinion should be sold off to either DHL, UPS, Fed Ex or Maersk as it is infrastructurally a very good airport but does not have the population base to support the staff numbers that exist there. Given that Cork is operationally viable I believe that a proportion of the car parking should be leased to NCP or an equivelent company and all the new commercial space should be sold to the National Pension Fund at an appropriate yield of say 4% once let and the proceeds should be used to pay down the costs of constructing the terminal.

I would also consider that the construction of a €900m terminal of questionable functionality and poor user experience quality will have a larger impact on landing charges at Dublin than the annual finance servicng costs of the Cork Airport Debt which if the airport fails to grow traffic on the basis of dodgy accesibility to the City and lets be honest buses are not the norm at most European airports then it will represent a certain medium term default risk.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby A-ha » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:18 pm

a boyle wrote:With respect to cork airports debt. If this new terminal is so rooted in economics sense and not a pure piece of government pork , then why oh why does my irish times repeatedly tell me that i will have to pay for cork airport debt, through higher landing charges ? Could you please explain that one to me in one sentence.


It's only fair, we paid for Shannons shady "incentives" long enough. Just because it isn't classed as a form of debt doesn't mean that we never forked out money to fund it's development.

Anyways, moving on, has the new terminal been named "Cha & Miah Terminal" or is this just rumours spreading? I'm just glad they didn't decide to call it after Roy Keane.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:36 pm

good point reargding shannon subsidies.

I still don't think it is fair the debt be moved just because previously shannon received handouts.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby A-ha » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:56 pm

It probably isn't fair, but that is just the way our crazy country is run. What people should remember though is that Ireland only 30 years ago was as poor as Kosovo or Bolivia is today (there's nothing wrong with my geography by the way.... I know they are both on opposite sides of the world). But, the government is still stuck in a fu*king time warp, which is why, with all the money the country has, we still lack the infrastructre that a modern European country should have. Take London for example, I know the city has a population five times the whole population of Ireland.... but they are spending absolute billions on public transport. The new Cross River Tram got planning permisson and funding with the blink of an eye. The DLR was built in the '80's for the East End and they are adding to it every day. Not to mention five international airports, the most extensive underground network in the world, high speed trains to Paris and Brussels and a new high speed train opening in time for the 2012 Olympics, appropriately called the Javelin to link one side of London with the other and then onto France and Belgium. When you see integrated transport like that in operation, you'd wonder what the hell the government are doing over here all day!
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:07 pm

Opening off licences in Leitrim
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:17 pm

ok yes they do spend a lot, but we should think carefully before we sink our money. The uk did run all parts of the world which have ever produced any wealth. That has allowed them to build up fantastic transport . (But note not as good as germany as they wasted a lot ).

We have only had money for twenty years (since we enter the eu). All things considered we are not doing to badly, the motorway network is moving full steam ahead. There are two tram lines built.
And a complete set of trains have been bought.

I would caution you corkonians to be wary of greeks bearing gifts! look over what i have suggested a dedicated ,segregated bus service could work. If decent buses (airconditioned) were bought they could be comfortable. As the roadway is in place all that is needed are some decent platforms with perhaps architect designed bus stops. After that some political will to remove roadway from other users.

Our tram cost 750 million. We took so long to build it that now it is already full all the time. as a result we are building a loony metro , instead of more trams to spread the load. We will sure find ourselves in a vat of debt , and no country to colonise , which all our european neighbour had the advantage of.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:38 pm

From a Cork perspective the motorway network is not moving full steam ahead it in fact stops at Watergrasshill and does not recommence until Portlaoise.

In the UK in general and London & Birmingham in particular public transport is taken as a given it must be of a sufficient standard to move millions of people around every day. Comparing Dublin to either is a joke; 2 tram lines that don't meet and a single rail line that disects the City Centre.

What Cork needs to do is implement the CASP plan that their own planners drew up and has the benefit of local expertise and a vision for the City that has been developed in its authors minds over a long period of time.

Buses are effective if you want to serve urban sprawl infrequently; if Cork wishes to develop at a decent density then at least light rail will be required.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby markpb » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:34 am

[quote="Thomond Park"]Buses are effective if you want to serve urban sprawl infrequently]

Buses, Irish style, are only useful for serving urban sprawl. There are lots of things that can be done to make them just as effective as a tram system with half the cost and much more flexibility.

A completely segregated bus network (not the bits of auld bus lanes that we have in Dublin) with articulated buses with three sets of doors (all of which actually open, unlike Dublin) can be built for almost nothing compared to a tram system. It'll also carry vastly more people at the same speed as a tram.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby phatman » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:15 pm

As regards, the airbridges in Cork airport, I seem to have lost track, but weren't we told that at least one, if not two, of the initially proposed three were being scrapped? Because it looks like all three were built in this image...

Image

And by the way, just noticed it in the background there, but anyone agree if I suggested the great southern hotel is the most boring building ever? Looks like a fecking barn, really crap if I might say so.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Spinal Tap » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:21 pm

phatman wrote:As regards, the airbridges in Cork airport, I seem to have lost track, but weren't we told that at least one, if not two, of the initially proposed three were being scrapped? Because it looks like all three were built in this image...

Image

And by the way, just noticed it in the background there, but anyone agree if I suggested the great southern hotel is the most boring building ever? Looks like a fecking barn, really crap if I might say so.



There will be only 1No. Airbridge to the new terminal - thats the one nearest the existing terminal.However the walkways were constructed for all 3No. airbridges - Only in Ireland !

The G.S. Hotel is very poor and complete under utilisation of the site - It looks like a corporate design to suit any site anywhere.

B.T.W. It has been a concensus for a long time now that Merchants Quay Shopping centre is the most boring building ever.:)
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:43 pm

markpb wrote:Buses, Irish style, are only useful for serving urban sprawl. There are lots of things that can be done to make them just as effective as a tram system with half the cost and much more flexibility.

A completely segregated bus network (not the bits of auld bus lanes that we have in Dublin) with articulated buses with three sets of doors (all of which actually open, unlike Dublin) can be built for almost nothing compared to a tram system. It'll also carry vastly more people at the same speed as a tram.


finally someone agrees with me and sees sense .
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:54 pm

thomond look at a map of dublin there are many routes which go through the city and do not require a bus to turn once. Thus the use of triaxle bus is indeed very possible.
The use of two axle bus down suffolk street is of course so thick that only a dublin bus person would have proposed it.

Regards convincing poeple to use them . Well If would have though that a bus that was airconditioned with nice cool air in the summer, heated in the winter , it would be an attractive option. Removing many of the stosp along the way so that their were a minimum of 800metres aparts would be a good improvement to. Moving the bus lanes into the center of the road and segregating the space with plastic bollards would help too. This would allow for proper express bus services.

Insisting on the use of prepaid tickets only would further speed up the bus.

Maybe it is just you .
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:17 pm

a boyle wrote:finally someone agrees with me and sees sense .


Read the title of the thread and try to stick to it; Bus better than light rail I'm not going to repeat myself yet again on why your aassertion is groundless.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:21 pm

there are several routes through cork which are appropriate for a central median reserved bus system.

Buses are better because they can give relief immediately whereas light rail will take a minimum of 6 years.

They combined with the use of a smartcard allow us to analyse traffic patterns and find out where a light rail might be needed in the future.

They create the modal shift between car use and group transport, thus making it far easier to then build a tram network. It is much easier to close a lane on a road to proceed with utilities diversion/ track laying if people already have a alternative to the car.

Ha good idea come from me, negative comments come from you .
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby jungle » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:25 pm

a boyle wrote:there are several routes through cork which are appropriate for a central median reserved bus system.

Buses are better because they can give relief immediately whereas light rail will take a minimum of 6 years.


Although, I've generally disagreed with a boyle's posts, I do agree with this.

The immediate priority in Cork has to be sorting out the bus service. We can dream of light rail all we like, but between political will and implementation practicalities, we're not going to see it before 2015.

Bringing a bus service up to a 6-10 minute frequency should also give a realistic measure of where light rail is likely to be successful.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby corcaighboy » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:28 am

With regards to the Airport debt, I don't think that we got value for money with the new terminal and ancilliary works. Fundamemtal problems remain (runway too short, instrument landing system has not been upgraded to ILS 3 - this despite ORK consistently having the most inclement weather of all our airports, lack of airbridges so that pax still have to run for their dear life in the rain to a distant stand - getting soaked to the skin on an outward journey lasting approx 15 hours is not pleasant, trust me).
The debt issue is symtomatic of our government's overall aviation policy (or lack thereof). The unions still see the airports (and our national airline) as their plaything and everyone else must do as they say. The cost structure at all Irish airports is still too high. Dublin is a shambles and Shannon is on life support thanks to US troops and such like. We presently have three seperate boards for each of the airports, but one management (the DAA). A complete joke would accurately describe our airport policy at present.
Finally, the funds generated by the sale of Great Southern Hotels will no doubt be funnelled back to the Dublin Airport Authority. I wonder would a third share of that be allocated to partially cover the expense of the new terminal at Cork! Also, I wonder does Shannon have to pay for its new terminal which was completed several years ago (and won an architectural award incidentally). Memories can be selective when neccessary and we can constantly feel sleighted at the treatment of each airport. Nevertheless, this country needs a viable and sustainable aviation infrastructure and it is the repsonsbility of the Department of Transport to ensure that the right framework is in place for this to happen. Sadly, their record is not impressive. As a paying passenger, I detest travelling through Irish airports as they are shoddy, dirty, cramped, inefficient, and with security that is more appropriate for Iraq than Ireland. Rant over!
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mhenness » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:42 pm

[quote="Thomond Park"]From a Cork perspective the motorway network is not moving full steam ahead it in fact stops at Watergrasshill and does not recommence until Portlaoise.

In the UK in general and London & Birmingham in particular public transport is taken as a given it must be of a sufficient standard to move millions of people around every day. Comparing Dublin to either is a joke]

The NRA website would contradict what you are saying that the motorway network is not moving at pace in the Cork area. According to the NRA the Fermoy bypass is under construction and is due to be completed ahead of schedule. The Cashel/Mitchelstown bypass is to start this year as is the Cullahill/Cashel bypass. It is very likely they will be finished ahead of schedule which is normal unless there are some legal issues. The Mitchelstown/Fermoy section in in planning as is the Portliaoise/Cullahill bypass. I think this covers the entire N8 route. Of course this level of activity might not mean full steam ahead for you?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Angry Rebel » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:29 pm

mhenness wrote:The NRA website would contradict what you are saying that the motorway network is not moving at pace in the Cork area. According to the NRA the Fermoy bypass is under construction and is due to be completed ahead of schedule. The Cashel/Mitchelstown bypass is to start this year as is the Cullahill/Cashel bypass. It is very likely they will be finished ahead of schedule which is normal unless there are some legal issues. The Mitchelstown/Fermoy section in in planning as is the Portliaoise/Cullahill bypass. I think this covers the entire N8 route. Of course this level of activity might not mean full steam ahead for you?


The Fermoy bypass will open in October.

The Cashel/Mitchelstown piece has been underway for over a month and will run from the Cork side of the Cashel bypass to a few mile the Dublin side of Mitchelstown.

Can anyone explain to me why we do new roads in 20 and 30 and 40 km sections. Would it not be more economical to tender for, say 150km? This would be a contract of sufficient size to attract large international groups who may be able to price more competitively on a large contract but wouldn't be interested in the bitty pieces currently on offer (unless as a minority partner in a joint venture led by an Irish firm).
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