Cork Transport

Re: Cork Transport

Postby jungle » Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:54 am

I just have a couple of points to address since I last saw this

Firstly, river buses... I agree that the idea of a river bus to Blackrock is dubious in terms of its viability. I'd be more interested in seeing a proposal related to the lower harbour. Given the population of Cobh and the number of jobs in Ringaskiddy, that could be a viable link. If consideration was being given to properly integrating public transport, it could also be used to link various lower harbour villages to the Cork-Cobh railway line.

As for the airport... The idea of a central airport with everyone having great transport links to it is nice in theory, but here's what happens in practice. That airport gets a monopoly. It doesn't worry about what it charges the airlines or about the level of passenger service it provides. Rather than providing an increased choice of routes, airlines gradually leave because of landing charges, I think we've seen that state monopolies are not the best at providing efficient or good service to the customer.

Furthermore, it's great to talk about the link that Cork would get to the airport, but it would leave West Cork and South Kerry over three hours drive from Shannon and with no effective public transport option. That is the country's premier tourist region after Dublin and it would effectively cut it off from international access. Cork Airport is not merely used by people from Cork City, but is the main airport for people from Mizen Head to the River Suir.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby dave123 » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:33 am

mickeydocs wrote:Use of Cork airport is not just limited to people from Cork, lots of people from Munster much prefer using Cork rather than go to Dublin.

It would be interesting to compare passenger figures for Cork and Shannon if transatlantic flights were also allowed for Cork (as they will be in the not too distant future).

Cork had more passengers than Shannon in 2004, however this trend was reversed in 2005 because of the huge increase in passenger numbers at Shannon due to US Military using the base as a stopover on their way to Iraq.



Twist there mickeydocs, are you done with the polishing....:D

I bet it would since Transatlantic was the main player for Shannon, and due to open skies, American routes going to Dublin, and September 11 (don't know exact figures but transatlantic hold more than half of all in and outbound flights at Shannon) plummeted. Only for Ryanair it would have being a very bad year for Shannon. While Cork was busy opening new routes to Europe,and I will even say that they did well considering...

Yes I will agree about Millitary passing through, but it\s still was static due to less Americans flying, so either way it was balancing.

Shannon over the years and done better finacially than Cork, DDA was more sympathic to Cork If I can remember.



Also I must say, It's a new phenomenon for shannon to have European flights into the airport.


I think it would be better in the long run for many reasons to scrapp Cork airport and merge it into shannon. I can see how threathned the cork people are, but you don't want to see the positive.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby dave123 » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:40 am

jdivision wrote:Cork airport has been a joke for a decade. The new terminal building was badly needed. Shannon's a hole and was only created for political reasons and despite getting every break going would be losing bucketloads of money if it wasn't for the US troop landings. The fact that one of them is stopping next year has left it in the proverbial creek without a paddle. DAA can't relinquish control of it because it's incapable of standing on its own two feet.



LOL. Yeh it was Cork that was getting more money in the end, and CAUSED more debt for DAA not Shannon, ues shannon had debt but there were also a lot of money taken out of shannon at the same time, which causeed the monopoly at Dublin, which is why before EVER got into the equation Shannon wanted to run as a separate body, your right Cork airport is a joke..... US troop landings is getting a bit old. now since it's leveling off, and threathned to be move elsewehere. Shannon had more problems going against it than Cork EVER had. Yet Shannon pulled through even with plummeting Transathlantic figues... In the end Shannon has it's debts cleared.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:54 am

Bottom line Shannon is overstaffed and badly managed furthermore it has no rail connection and has onlt Limerick to support it now that Galway is developing its own little airfield thanks to exchequer hand outs.

I agree that Shannon has in theory cleared its debts by a sharp accounting trick of shifting them onto the Dublin Airport Authority; it has been a very clever trick to have a grand terminal in Shannon that is overstaffed and empty most of the day whilst Cork has had airbridges removed from its badly needed and late new terminal and Dublin airport resembles the Long Mile Road Caravan centre and both cannot be resolved because the government has left Shannon debt free. Which I can only presume is so that it can accumulate another pile of debt in gauranteed operational losses.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mickeydocs » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:15 am

dave123 wrote:LOL. Yeh it was Cork that was getting more money in the end, and CAUSED more debt for DAA not Shannon, ues shannon had debt but there were also a lot of money taken out of shannon at the same time, which causeed the monopoly at Dublin, which is why before EVER got into the equation Shannon wanted to run as a separate body, your right Cork airport is a joke..... US troop landings is getting a bit old. now since it's leveling off, and threathned to be move elsewehere. Shannon had more problems going against it than Cork EVER had. Yet Shannon pulled through even with plummeting Transathlantic figues... In the end Shannon has it's debts cleared.



Well Dave, I am glad that the powers that be (government, aer lingus, and others) didn't bow to your unquestionable logic and have chosen instead to finally invest in Cork. Of course according to you it would make more sense to invest in an airport that covers Galway and Limerick, rather than to invest in an airport that serves a population hub that is well in excess of the combined populations of both those towns.

Open skies will finally reverse the years of excessive politiking that has forced everyone in the land to have to put up with the redundant Shannon stop over. Once again it takes a ruling made by someone rather than the Irish government to arrive at a decision that makes sense.

Thankfully Cork airport is here to stay, and will continue to help the states second population hub to thrive for the short, medium, and longterm future.

BTW, I flew into Cork at the weekend and was very impressed with the new terminal (from the outside of course). Was also very impressed by how large the Airport Business Park has grown. The second ariport hotel looks very impressive.

Just wondering how Irish Rails proposed once an hour scheduled rail service to Dublin will fare now that Ryanair are offering flights to Cork that amount to half the cost and one third of the travel time?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Aidan » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:15 am

I think it would be better in the long run for many reasons to scrapp Cork airport and merge it into shannon. I can see how threathned the cork people are, but you don't want to see the positive.


Lets see. Of two airports, you want to scrap the one with more traffic*, the bigger catchment area of the two in terms of population, and closer to the second biggest city in the state. And keep open the one that has only survived carrying large numbers of unnecssary staff because of political support. Nice plan there. In reality, the only thing that CNN has over Cork is that it has longer runways. Apart from that, its much easier to make a case for the inverse, close SNN and keep Cork. In reality, the state needs them both. Both Cork and Limerick need airports. There is no economic or regional development rationale for closing one. Knock, however, is a different matter.

*or will have as soon as open skies comes into effect, and the US troop numbers dwindle.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:55 am

scrapping cork is the correct thing to do. instead of investing in cork airport , investing in a new direct rail link from cork to limerick and on to shannon is the best thing you could have done with the 180 million euro invested in cork airport.

That way you would have a rail link between cork and ennis (with a real chance of it continuing to galway) AND an airport with an catchment population comparable to dublin.

Intead you have a provincial airport which will never bring the same choice of destinations as shannon could.

However if shannon and cork can both survive then all the better , but if there is a choice it is quite clear that shannon is preferable.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby jungle » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:14 am

mickeydocs wrote:Just wondering how Irish Rails proposed once an hour scheduled rail service to Dublin will fare now that Ryanair are offering flights to Cork that amount to half the cost and one third of the travel time?


Ryanair are actually cutting flights on Cork-Dublin in the winter, while Aer Arann and Irish Rail are increasing frequency.

The service has a number of flaws.

It doesn't allow for connections in Dublin, which is one of the main reasons to fly to Dublin.

Unless you are heading to Dublin Airport or Swords, there is no time saving in going to Dublin. You will lose significant time if your destination is on the southside of Dublin.

Their last flight back in the evening is too early. You need to leave central Dublin around 4-4:15pm to make the flight, which is unacceptably early for business travellers or for people finishing up after a day working in Dublin.

There aren't enough flights. If you need to change, Aer Arann can offer you a reasonable alternative flight. If you want to change your Ryanair flight, there will be a long wait, if there is a flight at all.

A standard train ticket still offers the flexibility of getting whichever train you want. Ryanair are going to hit you with a change charge.

Combined, these are killers for business travellers who have mostly stuck to the train and Aer Arann.

Ironically, given what I've said, the best way for Ryanair to make a go of the route would be to increase the frequency, not reduce it.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mickeydocs » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:18 am

a boyle wrote:scrapping cork is the correct thing to do. instead of investing in cork airport , investing in a new direct rail link from cork to limerick and on to shannon is the best thing you could have done with the 180 million euro invested in cork airport.

That way you would have a rail link between cork and ennis (with a real chance of it continuing to galway) AND an airport with an catchment population comparable to dublin.

Intead you have a provincial airport which will never bring the same choice of destinations as shannon could.

However if shannon and cork can both survive then all the better , but if there is a choice it is quite clear that shannon is preferable.



preferrable to whom?

How about another option. Let's scrap Dublin, Cork, Shannon, Galway, Farranfore, Knock. Let's knock them down.
Let's build an airport in the heart of the country that's accessible to all areas of the country, let's say we build this in Tipperary or Kilkenny, equidistant to Cork and Dublin, and quite close to Galway, Waterford and Limerick.
Let's then build a railway network built around this airport. We could then have a rail network that makes all areas of the country accessible, and an airport that is within one hour of all main population hubs. The airport is now used by all four million citizens, and is thus able to provide a much better range of services than either Cork, Dublin or Shannon do right now (let's face it, if we want to fly longhaul we always go via London, Paris, or Amsterdam).
This solution means that the majority of our citizens are no longe obliged to have to travel to go to Dublin so as to fly to the United States. The country gets an equitable transport infrastructure, and for much less than the proposed one billion that is to be spent on Dublin airport.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:28 am

But the rub is that Ryanair had a DeBlacham & Meaghar proposal of very high quality for Dublin Airport that would have cost the taxpayer nothing
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby witconor » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:30 am

mickeydocs wrote:preferrable to whom?

How about another option. Let's scrap Dublin, Cork, Shannon, Galway, Farranfore, Knock. Let's knock them down.
Let's build an airport in the heart of the country that's accessible to all areas of the country, let's say we build this in Tipperary or Kilkenny, equidistant to Cork and Dublin, and quite close to Galway, Waterford and Limerick.
Let's then build a railway network built around this airport. We could then have a rail network that makes all areas of the country accessible, and an airport that is within one hour of all main population hubs. The airport is now used by all four million citizens, and is thus able to provide a much better range of services than either Cork, Dublin or Shannon do right now (let's face it, if we want to fly longhaul we always go via London, Paris, or Amsterdam).
This solution means that the majority of our citizens are no longe obliged to have to travel to go to Dublin so as to fly to the United States. The country gets an equitable transport infrastructure, and for much less than the proposed one billion that is to be spent on Dublin airport.



Sounds like Zaventem (Brussels National) Airport in Belgium!
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mickeydocs » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:39 am

witconor wrote:Sounds like Zaventem (Brussels National) Airport in Belgium!


Sounds like Belgium full stop ;)
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Torquemada » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:00 pm

On a previously commented issue relating to Cork Airport, the airport website http://www.cork-airport.com/ is to be relaunched within the next week.The existing website is looking seriously dated, especially in comparison to those of Shannon and Dublin.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:04 pm

mickey docs is spot on. one single airport in the center of the country would be a great idea.

There are two things that might make the idea falter (possibly!).

One you are creating a monopoly. so we could all end up gouged. however if four terminal were built and indepentantly owned and operated then you could be onto .

The second reason why it is a good idea but a diificult one to implement is that it would require a huge amount a air traffic to pass over populated areas. in shannon and dublin are close to the sea.

Of course if a high speed rail connection existed between cork and shannon , then the logical next step would be to create a high speed dublin / shannon / limerick rail link . Then decommision the dublin to cork line.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mickeydocs » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:25 pm

a boyle wrote:mickey docs is spot on. one single airport in the center of the country would be a great idea.

There are two things that might make the idea falter (possibly!).

One you are creating a monopoly. so we could all end up gouged. however if four terminal were built and indepentantly owned and operated then you could be onto .

The second reason why it is a good idea but a diificult one to implement is that it would require a huge amount a air traffic to pass over populated areas. in shannon and dublin are close to the sea.

Of course if a high speed rail connection existed between cork and shannon , then the logical next step would be to create a high speed dublin / shannon / limerick rail link . Then decommision the dublin to cork line.



CDG is further from the sea than Athlone (the furthest inland area in the country) and caters for approximately 35 million passengers per year. Orly in the same city caters for 20 million passengers.

Zaventem is also further from the sea than Athlone.

Brussels and Paris have greater populations in excess of the entire populations of Éire.

This centralised approach completely ignores the idea that our aiports cater for three types of movement, cargo, business travellers and leisure travellers. Our airports tend to cater for the first two types, more so than the latter. Cork, Shannon and Dublin are all expected to act as economic generation aids, and are all successful at doing that.

However, due to limitations of all three major airports, leisure travellers, especially those looking to fly to longhaul destinations will always favour using Heathrow, CDG, or other similar airports. As such, all of our main airports service much larger hubs. The economic reality will show that we will all choose to fly from these hubs because flights will always be cheaper as these areas cater for very large populations, and benefit from competition and economies of scale.

Last Saturday I arrived in Cork airport and went to collect my bag. Six airplanes had all arrived within the preceding 15 minutes. So I queued and waited, and waited, and waited. The facilities would make you ashamed. The general ambience would make you ashamed. This airport was built to cater for half a million passengers, and this year will carry approximately three million passengers. Luckily we have a new terminal to look forward to. Most importantly we will have an airport that will reflect the success of our economic region (second only to Dublin by some distance!!!!), but also the success of our country.

Begrudge us our airport all you want. It is built. Aer Lingus see the value of investing in over €150 million in services and destinations from our airport. The goverment sees the value in a similar investment.

It is much too late to stop the building of this new terminal (which has cost €80 million) and all of the ancillary buildings and services which will take the overall investment to approximately €180 million. In August these will be open and available to the public.

The people of Munster require this investment, not just the people of Cork. Time to accept, in whatever form you choose to.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby KerryBog2 » Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:01 pm

jungle wrote:Ryanair are actually cutting flights on Cork-Dublin in the winter, while Aer Arann and Irish Rail are increasing frequency..


There is no point in flying to Cork if you live/work on the southside of Dublin. Ryanair know that, which is why they are pulling back, they obviously have profiled their customers. In the mornings allow 90 minutes to drive from southside to airport/parking (thro' town, avoiding the M50) allow another 60 minutes check-in before departure (to prevent "bumping") then add 30 minutes flight time, another 45 minutes to negotiate the exit, the infamous roundabout and the Cork traffic. Total - 3 hours 45mins. minimum. You'd drive it nearly as quick. The train is better, marginally, and one can work.
Aer Arann is a disgrace, its timekeeping and cancellation rate are atrocious (to Kerry at any rate, wouldn't use them for Cork) and it has now opted for unlimited company status to prevent the public from seeing the HUGE subsidies it gets from the taxpayer.

The financial rating agencies are watching DAA, fully prepared with pens sharpened to downgrade their ratings if the debt ratios are not right. DAA are fully aware of this, hence the posturing over debt / asset transfer and the sale of the GSH. Shannon is a dinosaur, overstaffed, overweight,. If people wanted to use it they would. Excluding the troop movements, Kerry - and even Knock - often have more traffice due to charters.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby A-ha » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:29 pm

a boyle wrote:scrapping cork is the correct thing to do. instead of investing in cork airport , investing in a new direct rail link from cork to limerick and on to shannon is the best thing you could have done with the 180 million euro invested in cork airport.

That way you would have a rail link between cork and ennis (with a real chance of it continuing to galway) AND an airport with an catchment population comparable to dublin.

Intead you have a provincial airport which will never bring the same choice of destinations as shannon could.

However if shannon and cork can both survive then all the better , but if there is a choice it is quite clear that shannon is preferable.


First of all, if we lived in a first world country like our government leaders force us to believe, then we would already have a railway line all up the west coast, probably connecting five different airports along the way. Also a boyle, it's easy to see that Cork Airport does offer a wider range of destinations than Shannon does (excluding the American destinations). Can I ask what airport people from Clare and Limerick must go to if they wish to go on a week-end break to places like Prague, Amsterdam, Budapest, Paris, Barcelona, Madrid, Nice..... the list goes on. And I mean Barcelona.... not Girona (about 120km away from Barcelona). Cork has the widest range of European flights when compared to Shannon. I would imagine that more people from Shannon-side have a need to use ORK than Lee-side people have a need to use SNN. But I have to agree a boyle, both airports must be kept open, Cork has a large population base and ORK caters for that population aswell as the surrounding counties. Shannon too must look after its own local regional area as all people should be as close to some form of airport as possible.

dave123 wrote:In the end Shannon has it's debts cleared.


Cleared by "deals" with the American Military and Government subsidies for employing large amounts of unnecessary people. Also I cannot see Shannon being debt free for many years to come, which is possibly why the DAA must hold on to it. Shannon has a 60 year old runway that is in serious need of upgrading. Also, wasn't it only this time last year that the Minister for Transport revealed that the state pays the €10m annual cost to air-traffic control due to US military aircraft in Irish airspace. Financial figures released in April 2005 show that the airport lost €2.5m, whilst the transport of US troops made an income of €18m for the airport (that's €30.5m in debt from next year already). So, come 2007-2008 when the Military leave, the Open Skies agreement is in place, the Stopover will have ended and the airport will need total modernisation.....hmmmmm how many millions will Shannon be loosing annually then €40-50 million?... maybe more.

P.S. - I almost forgot... how's that EU investigation going over the incentives given to Ryanair? I hear Brussels-Charleroi is supposed to pay millions in fines to the EU. You'd better all get rid of those brown envelopes before someone comes knocking.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:52 pm

you have mixed up does with could.

vis a vis other first world countries having good rail link. let us keep some perspective. have a look a france's network and you will see that ours is a lot more comprehensive with regard to smaller towns.

Now to repeat if you closed cork and built a proper high speed rail connection shannon would have a much bigger catchment area , thus supporting more routes.

better again is infact closing all the airports and build a new one in the center of the country
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:56 pm

Are you still plugging a single airport?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby A-ha » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:17 pm

I know I know.... the airport bashing should stop. It's gone on abit to long, but I can't seem to stop. a boyle, that train idea is fine if you live in the city, but what if you live in the backs of beyonds. I doubt every town and villiage would have it's own railway station. And don't even try to defend our rail system, which is one of the worst in Europe. France has a much better system. You must have been looking at the high speed TGV map, which only covers major towns and cities. There are hundreds of villages in France that are connected to the normal regular SNCF network. And you can say it all you want, but I would think that most people would be aginst closing all the airports to open up a single new one. Talk about creating a monopoly.... something that has gone on far to long in this country.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby A-ha » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:36 pm

A-ha wrote: a boyle, that train idea is fine if you live in the city, but what if you live in the backs of beyonds.

:mad: Actually I want to change my view. That whole train idea to Shannon isn't fine.......it's actually incredibly stupid. Talk about going backwards. I don't want to give the impression that Cork Airport is equivelant to London LHR, Paris CDG or Amsterdam AMS, but really, do you think Shannon is God's gift to the aviation world? I mean, like, who would even consider closing three airports so a train line can be built to Shannon. I don't think people from Douglas would be to happy when they found out that the ten minute car journey to the airport has turned into a twenty minute car journey into the city centre, followed by an hour and a half train journey (including stopping in numerous stations along the way.... that is if it's supposed to be profitable and of use to people), only to find out that you must wait three hours in a manky old dilapidated airport. I don't think so! I'm off to bed before I have a banger attack.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:01 pm

A-ha wrote::mad: I mean, like, who would even consider closing three airports so a train line can be built to Shannon.


The germans would . They would build a 200 km/h route between cork limerick shannon and galway, with four stops only. the trip time would be 38 minutes. Then they would build a 300 km/h train between dublin and shannon. They would close the lines between galway and dublin and cork and dublin. Every one would save time overall.

And yes in fact the best idea is to build one single airport in the center of the country with four independant terminals. Set up a seperate government owned company to auction of each time slot to each terminal, thus minimizing the monopoly.

The advantage of this is huge , you would no longer need to go through heathrow AT ALL to go to different places.

Of course people like thomond park run this country , thinking that you provide infrastructure where people want it. While this sounds nice it is in fact the worst thing you can do . It is why there are traffic jams on the m50.

Instead dublin cork and shannon will all remain provincial and the country will continue to suffer the expense and time of having to go through heathrow, in order to get to many destinations. But clearly you all know better. what we have at the moment obviously works so well .
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Spinal Tap » Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:31 am

a boyle wrote:The germans would . They would build a 200 km/h route between cork limerick shannon and galway, with four stops only. the trip time would be 38 minutes. Then they would build a 300 km/h train between dublin and shannon. They would close the lines between galway and dublin and cork and dublin. Every one would save time overall.

And yes in fact the best idea is to build one single airport in the center of the country with four independant terminals. Set up a seperate government owned company to auction of each time slot to each terminal, thus minimizing the monopoly.

The advantage of this is huge , you would no longer need to go through heathrow AT ALL to go to different places.

Of course people like thomond park run this country , thinking that you provide infrastructure where people want it. While this sounds nice it is in fact the worst thing you can do . It is why there are traffic jams on the m50.

Instead dublin cork and shannon will all remain provincial and the country will continue to suffer the expense and time of having to go through heathrow, in order to get to many destinations. But clearly you all know better. what we have at the moment obviously works so well .



God bless your youthfull enthuasism,idealism & keeping the "silly season" going with ever more hilarious posts.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:51 am

Hmmm

Lets take the Rhein Valley from Koblenz to Mannheim which is about the distance from Cork Airport to Shannon airport;

1 Hahn a former US airbase now used as a low cost airport
2 Flughafen Frankfurt an International hub largest air freight centre in Europe
3 Mannheim Airport a regional airport like Belfast Aldergrove
4 Heidleburg Airport

Not to mention the rest of the airports on the list here
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby daniel_7 » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:34 pm

yer all thalking about a topic thats never going to happen in a million years and i dont get why ye would want Cork airport to shut anyway whatever yer reasons! I think the topic should be about Cork airport gettong a rail service to the city centre! The new terminal looks fairly impressive evan before opening and the council should really think about providing a light rail service here to complement it and i know one counciller with a bit of ambition is fighting for it! When you here all this talk about people arriving into Cork airport and heading out of the city straight away! One of the reasons for this has to be that there was no proper service to the city centre and I know that skylink have set up and fair play to tha fella and i hope cie dont force him out after providing a half ass service for years! But if you think of it, every modern city airport should have a rail service to the city centre and especially Cork as it is close to the city and I really think this would encourage more people to stay in the city for a break if there was a light rail service from the terminal to the city centre! Apart from this aside Cork shoul learn from Dublin and should get it in motion now rather than waiting for the traffic to just get worse and eventually just cost more in the end to get up and running anyway, a service to the airport could go trough maybe togher and out that way and there should really be a service to caragaline(the most car dependent town in the country, but how really a suburb of cork) which could go through the douglas area as well which has more than enough of a population to cater for this not to mention ringaskiddy!And I know the green party have vowed to provide a service for Cork if elected but thats never going to happen! I just dont think most of the city councillers think big enough when doing there job and always stick to the little topics like anti social behavior and the likes, and dont get me wrong i know this needs to be done but all im saying is they never seem to think outside the box. I think this is mainly down to the way socitey has gone in recent years and as a result the way cork has developed in recent years and I think the young people of today down the line in a couple of years when they are elected to be councillers will be thinking more like this and how to keep developing the city to be a modern european city and wont be hanging about on all the small topics every week making it look like there doing more more than they actually are!
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