Cork Transport

Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:06 pm

i must repeat an earlier post. Upgrading roads is in general the worst thing you can do with your money.

Very simply if you upgrad a junction or whatever so that it can cope with an extra 100 cars per hour , you will end up with an extra 110 cars per hour.

Just look at corks histrory (or dublin's ) as we have built more roads the traffic has gotten worse . It is mad but that is how it is. If you want fast roads you have to charge people to use them . plain and simple.

And you have to charge people a lot. Consider would you still have the same traffic jams if you charged a fiver through the tunnel ? People might object but have they considered the time they waste sitting in their cars .

Say you are paid 30 euros an hour . well if you spend an hour going to work , wouldn't it be in your interest to pay a five euro toll and so only spend ten minutes commuting and work for fifty minutes ? You are up anyway ?

don't follow dublin experience it is a bad bad experience. you need group transport group living and group working : a city
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby jungle » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:48 pm

a boyle wrote:i must repeat an earlier post. Upgrading roads is in general the worst thing you can do with your money.

Very simply if you upgrad a junction or whatever so that it can cope with an extra 100 cars per hour , you will end up with an extra 110 cars per hour.

Just look at corks histrory (or dublin's ) as we have built more roads the traffic has gotten worse . It is mad but that is how it is. If you want fast roads you have to charge people to use them . plain and simple.

And you have to charge people a lot. Consider would you still have the same traffic jams if you charged a fiver through the tunnel ? People might object but have they considered the time they waste sitting in their cars .

Say you are paid 30 euros an hour . well if you spend an hour going to work , wouldn't it be in your interest to pay a five euro toll and so only spend ten minutes commuting and work for fifty minutes ? You are up anyway ?

don't follow dublin experience it is a bad bad experience. you need group transport group living and group working : a city


I agree. The major investment in Cork needs to go towards public transport.

However, there are sometimes slight changed that can make a big difference. For people who know Cork, the right-hand turning lane at the bottom of Donnybrook Hill is an example,

Public Transport uses roads to and any bus stuck in a traffic jam is bad news
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Angry Rebel » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:40 am

Presumably as part of the work on the flyover, the lanes have been repainted on the Magic Roundabout and now make sense! They don't disappear or merge anymore and should result in less crashes.

So simple....why couldn't they have done it years ago?!
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby jungle » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:25 pm

Angry Rebel wrote:Presumably as part of the work on the flyover, the lanes have been repainted on the Magic Roundabout and now make sense! They don't disappear or merge anymore and should result in less crashes.

So simple....why couldn't they have done it years ago?!

The local authorities in Cork have a unique approach to road lining. When one lane becomes two, one always has markings that emerge from the kerb rather than start in the middle of the road.

Much more interesting is Parnell Place, where if you go into the left hand lane and aren't turning off, the markings will gracefully guide you into the footpath...
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PTB » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:07 am

Originally Posted by THE_Chris
I'm no engineer, but I've thought a fair bit about how to make that roundabout freeflow without modifying the tunnel much.

All you have to do is take the current east-west N25 run and put THAT in a tunnel underneath the current roundabout. Then you could get rid of the roundabout and put freeflow slips everywhere to solve the current problems.

THe traffic lights were a stopgap.
It will get bad again.

Opening the Kinsale Road flyover will jam the tunnel up like mad.
Opening the 694 house development in Glanmire will make it worse.
Opening the north ring will make it even worse.

Yes, we're talking Red Cow Of The South with that roundabout. I dont think people realise just how bad its going to be in a few years time.


Alternately you could tunnel under the roundabout north-south and not have to destroy the existing flyover. But like THE_Chris said I'm no engineer and would that destabilise the flyover above? Also the problem of lack of tunnel capacity would hardly be rectified. Then again that might not be so much of an issue as the delays at the interchange.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby A-ha » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:17 am

Image
Low-cost airline Wizz Air have announced that it will start a service from Cork International Airport to Gdansk in Northern Poland from early December. The airline has recently started flights from Cork to Katowice. There is also a lot of talk over Ryanair's decision to recruit extra staff in Cork. I wonder have they decided to increase their presence at the airport. :confused:
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Re: Water Taxi

Postby A-ha » Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:10 pm

Has anyone heard any more about the water taxi service that was in "planning" stages at Christmas. I haven't heard anything about it in ages. Is it still going ahead?
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Re: Water taxi

Postby Angry Rebel » Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:22 pm

Do you mean a commuter type service or a smaller scale "taxi"?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby A-ha » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:12 am

From what was being talked about a few months ago, it would be a commuter style service to be used by both locals and tourists with each boat capable of holding about 20 passengers, maybe more, I'm not sure. It sounded like a good idea but I haven't heard anything since.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Angry Rebel » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:20 pm

I know of a commuter style one that held considerably more than 20 but on initial examination it has proved unviable. It has been parked for the moment.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby kite » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:03 pm

A-ha wrote:From what was being talked about a few months ago, it would be a commuter style service to be used by both locals and tourists with each boat capable of holding about 20 passengers, maybe more, I'm not sure. It sounded like a good idea but I haven't heard anything since.


:cool:
Cork City Council’s Planning & Development Strategic Policy Committee met on Monday 26th June and recommended a motion from Cllr.Denis O’Flynn to be approved by CCC to provide a river bus service to serve Mahon and Blackrock as part of the “Blackrock Village Plan”, this follows a motion from Cllr.Chris O’Leary for a river bus service for the city centre.
A great idea if it ever becomes a reality.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Angry Rebel » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:28 pm

Does that mean that the City Council will provide the service or that they think it's a good idea and that someone else should provide it?

I don't see the need for it to be honest. The No 2 bus goes along the same route, and will do so faster. A ferry/taxi is restricted to 6 knots from Blackrock Castle up to the city centre. (Unless the operator can do some very fancy footwork with the Port of Cork). [6 knots = 7 mph!]
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby kite » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:36 pm

Angry Rebel wrote:Does that mean that the City Council will provide the service or that they think it's a good idea and that someone else should provide it?

I don't see the need for it to be honest. The No 2 bus goes along the same route, and will do so faster. A ferry/taxi is restricted to 6 knots from Blackrock Castle up to the city centre. (Unless the operator can do some very fancy footwork with the Port of Cork). [6 knots = 7 mph!]


I think it's all up in the air at the moment on who would provide the service Angry Rebel.
On the No 2 bus, the recent vote on the Blackrock Area Plan saw councillors from the area force city management to remove the "Green bus route" along the marina. Is this the No 2 route?, if so maybe the river would be a faster route rather then being stuck in traffic on a bus?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:22 pm

QBC is the only way to go in the short term but realistically an Airport of that size should have at least a light rail connection to the CC

New intercity rail fleet launched

10 July 2006 12:06
The new intercity rail fleet to run between Cork and Dublin has been launched by the Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, with the promise of an hourly train service between the two cities from December next.

In all, 67 new carriages will see a capacity increase of over 80%, or 16,000 seats, available to customers every day.

The intercity trains were built in Spain and will replace 20-year-old rail stock.

Advertisement


The purchase of 217 carriages at a cost of €440 million will mean the transformation of the fleet from being the oldest in western Europe to the newest.

The renewal programme is funded by the Government under Transport 21 and will be completed by 2008.

An additional 150 intercity rail cars at a cost of €322 million will be delivered by companies in Japan and Korea.

These will come on track over the next two years and will serve routes from Dublin to Mayo, Galway, Limerick, Kerry, Sligo, Rosslare and Waterford.


How many times can one announce the same thing as new and exiting?

Maybe e-voting was pulled because the button kept repeating?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:51 pm

i am sorry thomond , but i cant agree. cork airport is has barely a few million , simply not enough to justify such an investment.

There is huge dishonesty on the part of all politicians as to what is needed and appropriate for ireland. I would argue forcefully that cork limercik and galway would be much better served by an eastern railway shuttle service and one single airport at shannon. cork has already burned sackfulls of money on a beautifull white elephant of an airport terminal , please don't compound the problem!!

Closing cork airport and introducing a fast shuttle service to shannon would be overall a sustainable answer. Such a trainline could be built with a short travel time. cork to shannon is only 128 km.

Instead of squandering 180 million on this terminal , that would have gone some way to building a 200 km/h trainline from cork to shannon. Then the travel time would only be some 35 minutes or so .
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mickeydocs » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:22 pm

a boyle wrote:i am sorry thomond , but i cant agree. cork airport is has barely a few million , simply not enough to justify such an investment.

There is huge dishonesty on the part of all politicians as to what is needed and appropriate for ireland. I would argue forcefully that cork limercik and galway would be much better served by an eastern railway shuttle service and one single airport at shannon. cork has already burned sackfulls of money on a beautifull white elephant of an airport terminal , please don't compound the problem!!

Closing cork airport and introducing a fast shuttle service to shannon would be overall a sustainable answer. Such a trainline could be built with a short travel time. cork to shannon is only 128 km.

Instead of squandering 180 million on this terminal , that would have gone some way to building a 200 km/h trainline from cork to shannon. Then the travel time would only be some 35 minutes or so .



Just a quick question Boyle... why shut Cork and keep Shannon. Surely the logical idea would be to serve the area with the greater critical mass, which by far and away is Cork. Cork metropolitan area is 300k, the county is 440k. Proximity of Waterford, Limerick, Tipperary and Kerry quickly bring that closer to one million.

Why does Cork have to lose out?
At present there is no transatlantic service out of the city, this needs to be rectified.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:26 pm

I don't think that the people in Cork would agree that their terminal was a sqaundering of money; I'd say that the continuance of Hanlon Bourke & Co in their politically motivated positions was the real squandering.

Bourke was quoted in 2002 in the Brussels based Airports Council International as saying 'Who else other than Aer Rianta would build a €120m terminal for Cork' like Cork was some economic basket case. I did my own calculations using a copy of EF Spon and came to the conclusion that the real cost was about €80m
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mickeydocs » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:50 pm

[quote="Thomond Park"]I don't think that the people in Cork would agree that their terminal was a sqaundering of money]


Use of Cork airport is not just limited to people from Cork, lots of people from Munster much prefer using Cork rather than go to Dublin.

It would be interesting to compare passenger figures for Cork and Shannon if transatlantic flights were also allowed for Cork (as they will be in the not too distant future).

Cork had more passengers than Shannon in 2004, however this trend was reversed in 2005 because of the huge increase in passenger numbers at Shannon due to US Military using the base as a stopover on their way to Iraq.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby malec » Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:27 pm

Sorry but I can't see at all how cork airport doesn't need this new terminal. Last night when I came back from Geneva (through Amsterdam) there were 9 planes parked there, 3 in front of the current terminal and the rest beside the new one. When we got inside it was absolutely jam packed at the luggage reclaim with around 4 times more people than what's supposed to be there. I know I'm not quoting any figures or anything but from my arrival yesterday this new terminal look like plain common sense.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby jdivision » Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:10 pm

malec wrote:Sorry but I can't see at all how cork airport doesn't need this new terminal. Last night when I came back from Geneva (through Amsterdam) there were 9 planes parked there, 3 in front of the current terminal and the rest beside the new one. When we got inside it was absolutely jam packed at the luggage reclaim with around 4 times more people than what's supposed to be there. I know I'm not quoting any figures or anything but from my arrival yesterday this new terminal look like plain common sense.


Cork airport has been a joke for a decade. The new terminal building was badly needed. Shannon's a hole and was only created for political reasons and despite getting every break going would be losing bucketloads of money if it wasn't for the US troop landings. The fact that one of them is stopping next year has left it in the proverbial creek without a paddle. DAA can't relinquish control of it because it's incapable of standing on its own two feet.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:00 pm

you need to look at this on a national basis. cork has enough to support a small airport . but if shannon was connected with a railway line to galway limerick and cork it could no doubt support 20 million people a year.

you would need to have two track the whole way between cork and galway. If you built them to 200 km/h spec. it would only take about 40 minutes. That is no skin off anyone's nose. It take much longer to get to dublin airport from parts of dublin.

but if you had it in shannon it would be within reach of all the people on the eastern side of the country , a big number.

the reason i say that the hundred and eighty million (a number that appears to be in dispute , but even if it cost only 80 million it doesn't matter). Yes say it cost eighty million. Well ryanair built on in germany with the same capacity for 18 million. I understand that what is built in cork has plummeted the airport in debt , which the 'company' is petrified of. So i think i can safely say the money was squandered.

If you wanted to spend 180 million on cork , having built a railway line to galway, you could build a short light rail route which passed by the busiest parts of cork. That would be better for everyone.

In is a bit obnoxious but germany did it and they have no traffic jams. You do not build roads trains airports where people are currently going or would like to go. You built these things where you want people to go. !! So if you look at a map of the german motorway system there are almost no direct motorway connection between cities. It is a tough idea to get your head around but it is the right way to do things (it just pisses off a lot of people until it is done ---> of course that is how you know you are doing the right thing!!)
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Re: Cork International Airport

Postby A-ha » Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:21 pm

you need to look at this on a national basis. cork has enough to support a small airport . but if shannon was connected with a railway line to galway limerick and cork it could no doubt support 20 million people a year.


I have to say that I have never heard anything more narrow minded in my life. Local economies depend on services such as those offered at local airports. I would imagine that the economies of areas such as Galway, Sligo and Mayo that depend on Knock airport as a means of income would suffer if it were to be replaced by a train connecting the area to Shannon...... not to mention the economy in Cork where the pharmaceutical industries including Pfizer and GlaxoSmithKline rely heavily on the airport for many reasons. Although overpriced, the airport has been money well spent, even if it did come at a cost, it had to be done. And really I can't see Shannon airport coping with 20million passengers without getting a new terminal of it's own, so it's just as well the money was spent on Cork, as Shannon, whatever way you look at it, will always be "out of the way". The Clare airport will have to come up with a plan soon though if it intends to stay economically viable. The Shannon Stopover that has for years dampened the transatlantic development out of both Dublin and Cork airports will end next year as well as the US military aircraft stopover which has decided that it will move to a base in Germany.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby bosco » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:28 am

a boyle wrote:you need to look at this on a national basis. cork has enough to support a small airport . but if shannon was connected with a railway line to galway limerick and cork it could no doubt support 20 million people a year.

you would need to have two track the whole way between cork and galway. If you built them to 200 km/h spec. it would only take about 40 minutes. That is no skin off anyone's nose. It take much longer to get to dublin airport from parts of dublin.

but if you had it in shannon it would be within reach of all the people on the eastern side of the country , a big number.

the reason i say that the hundred and eighty million (a number that appears to be in dispute , but even if it cost only 80 million it doesn't matter). Yes say it cost eighty million. Well ryanair built on in germany with the same capacity for 18 million. I understand that what is built in cork has plummeted the airport in debt , which the 'company' is petrified of. So i think i can safely say the money was squandered.

If you wanted to spend 180 million on cork , having built a railway line to galway, you could build a short light rail route which passed by the busiest parts of cork. That would be better for everyone.

In is a bit obnoxious but germany did it and they have no traffic jams. You do not build roads trains airports where people are currently going or would like to go. You built these things where you want people to go. !! So if you look at a map of the german motorway system there are almost no direct motorway connection between cities. It is a tough idea to get your head around but it is the right way to do things (it just pisses off a lot of people until it is done ---> of course that is how you know you are doing the right thing!!)


This misconception about the Cork/Hahn comparison is often introduced into debates about Cork airport. In fairness, it shows how effective Ryanair's PR machine is, but the facts of the matter are different.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/06/22/story38861991.asp

Development plans for Cork Airport were formulated in consultation with airlines and their representatives, and their combined views significantly influenced the ultimate plan.

Many of the issues at Cork have their roots in its original 1950s design, which left it too small and constrained to handle the growing demand from new and existing airlines, and to cater adequately for the stringent safety and security measures required of international airports. We had proposed a less ambitious expansion at Cork, but the airline users vehemently objected and demanded a new building rather than the planned extension to the existing building. A consultation process resulted in a plan that met the airlines' requirements as well as meeting all other associated demands for infrastructure, utilities etc.

But let me address Ryanair's specific cost comparisons of the development at Frankfurt Hahn and at Cork.

Firstly, the new terminal at Cork will cost €]

Then, regarding Shannon airport:

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/06/25/story15278.asp

Shannon to lose €10m following US departure
Sunday, June 25, 2006 - By Niamh Connolly, Political Reporter
Politicians were warned last week that Shannon Airport’s viability was in doubt, and its separation from the Dublin Airport Authority (DAA) was unlikely to take place in the foreseeable future.

The largest carrier of US military personnel through Shannon, World Airways, will move its primary stopover for flights to Leipzig in Germany. GaryMcGann, chairman of the DAA, told an Oireachtas committee last week that Shannon’s ‘‘significant underlying losses’’ were masked by the impact of US military traffic. He said costs were too high and out of step with Dublin and Cork airports. McGann did not quantify the losses but said that the revenue from the US military flights was ‘‘shoring up’’ income at Shannon by between €7million and €9million a year.

The Sunday Business Post has learned that when military activity is stripped out, Shannon Airport’s losses amounted to €2.25 million for January and February of this year. The withdrawal of the Shannon stopover this November, which is expected to cost at least €4million a year in revenue, puts the airport on an even more insecure financial footing. The airport still needs money for capital expenditure on buildings, its airside ramp and runway. Maintenance costs are expected to run to €10million over the next six years. ‘‘Shannon is not viable; it’s losing money,” McGann told the committee last week. ‘‘In the last year or two, it has been supplemented in its income because of military traffic.

There’s no prospect of Shannon being viable at all in the next number of years; hence no prospect of separation.”


And I must also agree with A-ha above. One particular example: It is well known that a deciding factor for EMC to locate in Cork was the availability, proximity and convenience of Cork airport. EMC fly in customers to visit their plant on their own jets which are based in Cork. EMC employs around 1600 in Cork, I think.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:47 am

the relative cost is not that important to my point . What is am trying to get at is that it is the interest of the whole western side of the country to have an airport that is in the middle , that way all three cities are within range.

As i said a good bit of money spent on a top notch rail link would mean the the airport was closer to all three cities than charles de gaul is to paris.

Having a large airport nearby means that there will be a greater variety of routes on offer. This is only a good thing. You gain from the demand from the three cities. You would expect a high frequency route to develop to london and a regular routing to america.

I have included two pictures which illustrate france and germanys approach to road building. The difference could not be starker. france built motorways where people currently wanted to go , while germany ignored current needs and decided where were allowed to go. You will notice that germanys grid approach means that more people can go more places faster. Paris in the mean time has ridiculous traffic problems .

I don't really want to talk at length about all this because i reckon we will just disagree. So if there is a good retort then post it , otherwise let's just agree to disagree.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:02 am

A Boyle

Instead of pushing this Shannon idea ad nauseum why don't you examine the millions being squandred on the regional airports such as the €500 subsidy on each seat to Knock as well as subsidies to Farranfore and Galway.

Lets face it Shannon is up the Creek because it is over staffed and poorly managed it also has no sizeable City to back it given that current policy is to get taxpayers to fund BAE model aircraft to ferry 3-4 business people to Dublin at a time from Galway. Who have their own 'International Airport' and have interest in joining with Limerick to try to make Shannon viable.

If the terminal at Cork cost €70-80m then it was worth it; the retail accomodation of 3500 sq m will generate €3-5m per year and I would hate to think what profits the parking will extract from regular users.

Re The rail idea for Shannon what is the status of the Beaux Walk rail spur that they undertook to provide as a planning condition of the shopping centre they built?
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