Cork Transport

Cork Transport

Postby Angry Rebel » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:49 pm

Following the administrators request and subsequent "debate" over new threads relating to Cork, I've decided to get this one going as an experiment of sorts. Surely transport in the Cork region is a meaty enough topic to sustain some sort of debate?

If I could rip off Eamon Dunphy...it's a good transport system, it's not a great transport system. Cork has benefited from some good planning over the last 2 decades which have led to:

  • Cork Ring Road
  • Lee Tunnel
  • City Link Road
  • Dual Carriageway standard road into/out of the city on the major routes to Dublin/Waterford/Limerick/Kerry
  • Bus/Green Routes (of questionable benefit many argue)
  • Park & Ride (with a planned 2nd site shot down by people power in Mayfield)
  • Imminent reopening of commuter rail to East Cork

On the other hand, some of the challenges include:

  • Continued growth in population and business activity (and therefore congestion) in the city centre, Docklands, suburbs and immediate hinterland
  • Continued spread of city in low density developments
  • Inherent constraints of narrow and small roads/streets in the city centre
  • Lack of growth in city/suburban bus routes
  • Delays in development of Horgans Quay/Kent Station
  • Scaled down development of Central Bus Station from original plans/potential improvements
  • Inadequately designed/insufficient capacity in new airport terminal
  • Lack of funding for key projects (e.g. dualling of N28 to Ringaskiddy, grade separated interchanges on Ring Road)
  • North Ring Road?
  • Lack of coordination between City and County Authorities?
  • Current lack of population density along river to justify water borne transport
  • Lack of proper cycling lanes and associated facilities
  • Lack of footpaths accompanying many major housing developments (e.g Lehanaghmore)
  • Minimal public transport competition from the private sector


What do people believe is required? That's a stupidly broad question and could be further broken into: required elements of infrastructure, required exposure at national level to secure funding, required planning initiatives at local and regional level and more. Thoughts?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby jungle » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:04 pm

As a pedestrian, the Green Routes are useful. It is a lot easier to cross the road, footpaths have been upgraded etc. On the rare occasions that I cycle, they are helpful because there are few parked cars to go around. I'm not sure how much they really benefit buses. If you look at the number 6 Green Route, there are actually very few bus lanes on it. Although, they are beneficial in rush hour.

As for what is required, in the Developments in Cork thread, I said that the first priority has to be to get up to a 10 minute service on the city's major bus routes - 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12. That is a simple matter of investing in a few more buses and training up the drivers. While we can look at light rail systems etc., we won't realistically see one in place before the middle of the next decade. That kind of improvement to the bus service can be achieved by 2008

There are a few things I'd like to see done immediately
  • No more buses waiting on Patrick St for 15 minutes - I used to commute from Douglas to St Luke's every day and the period that the 7 was stuck on Patrick St drove me nuts. Just eliminating this waste could be the start of a more frequent service
  • Clean the buses - they are a disgrace, covered in graffiti, vandalised and just generally dirty.

As for wish lists for the medium-term
  • A separate Cork Bus company a la Dublin Bus. It's clear that Bus Eireann have no clue about or interest in what is going on in Cork
  • Through ticketing. Given a 10 minute frequency, it becomes practical to use two buses to a destination. It should be possible to buy a ticket that does this
  • Consideration of transport hubs. For example, someone should be planning to divert/extend a few buses once Kilbarry station is open. The 1, 5A, 7 and 12 can all be easily be diverted/extended to link up with the railway there. If it happens it will surely be an afterthought 5 years after the station is constructed
  • Town bus services to be considered in Mallow and Midleton


That's all I really have time to post now. Just don't get me started on cycle lanes...
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby d_d_dallas » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:12 pm

The biggest problem is the danger of the LA's getting too self regarding and self congratulatory for past achievements. LUTS is 30 years old and only then the private car aspect was delivered. The LA's interact well in terms of transport planning, but should not get too complacent based on past successes.

CASP is OK but getting central government to get behind such initiaitves is vital. Having the Midelton line lobbed in with Transport 21 is a disgrace. Essentially there is nothing for Cork in Transport 21. The midelton line was already approved in concept. Serious lobbying is required.

It is unacceptable that the most car dependent community in Ireland (Carrigaline) is in such a supposedly well planned region of Ireland.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby CologneMike » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:27 pm

Developments in Cork

Am closing this thread..... mega threads like this are too unweildy

for future reference i'd like separate threads per area... ie a cork docklands, cork ring road, patricks street etc

over time i'll split this thread and its predesscor into pieces



Hello Paul, you state that the discussion forum for Ireland is having an IT-Problem due heavy traffic on popular general threads. I share the same views stated on the Cork thread against fragmenting a general thread. A solution might be found by sub-dividing the Ireland discussion forum into regions such as South, Mid-West, Dublin etc, etc. Within these regions only specific threads should prevail like Docklands, Shopping-Centers, ……….?

Is this possible? There some 2800 threads dealing with Ireland!

http://www.boards.ie use the same software (Powered by vBulletin) as Archiseek and they use regions to organize their threads.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:08 pm

jungle wrote:As for wish lists for the medium-term[LIST]
[*]A separate Cork Bus company a la Dublin Bus. It's clear that Bus Eireann have no clue about or interest in what is going on in Cork
[*]Through ticketing. Given a 10 minute frequency, it becomes practical to use two buses to a destination. It should be possible to buy a ticket that does this


Totally agree on the bus issue; Bus Eireann place little enough attention to their National operations let alone commuter services; it would also be a great excuse to rebrand a distinctive Cork Transit encompasing commuter rail and the planned light rail system as well.

Integrated ticketing should also be looked at in line with international best practice
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby arch-i-tech-ur » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:24 pm

I have to do a project named place making
Actually its a project to bring human activities to a dead space.
The provided site is a religious monument which is now acting as a traffic island cause a road run round the site.
The first problem of the project was to provide a way to pedestrian whic I solved by changing some traffic routes and provinding a pedestrian path to connect the site.
Now the second problem I am facing is how to provide a reason to the people to visit the site.
The site is religiously important to some group of people so its now being a target to only those people for others its dead.
Since the site is on the major part of the city and monumental zone, its should be able to attract the rest of the people.
I just dont want to create a market space since its very near to a popular commercial zone.
Can any one suggest how I can attract people to my site.
Something innovative!
Sandeep.
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Re: Arch i Tech Ur

Postby Angry Rebel » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:02 pm

I think sorting out public transport to Carrigaline and Ballincollig have to be pretty close to the top of the agenda. Two big (and getting bigger) towns, one of which as mentioned above is the most car dependant town in the country.

Arch i Tech Ur - Suspect you might be better off in another thread buddy.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby jungle » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:43 am

Does anyone know what the story is with that yellow bus I've seen around that says it links the city's hotels with the airport? How frequent is it? Is it only available to hotel guests?

One of my big gripes about public transport in Cork is that the bus from the airport only serves the bus station. Although, I'm not generally a fan of privatised public transport, if they can provide a service that Bus Eireann are missing, it's brilliant.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Angry Rebel » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:13 pm

That is a new service called Skylink I believe, and it operates every half an hour. It is available to anyone who wants it. Can't remember the prices offhand but will have a look for them.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Torquemada » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:09 pm

With regard the the skylink service running between the city and airport; their website is http://www.skylinkcork.com, 5 euro one way according to the website.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby mickeydocs » Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:00 pm

anybody know what's proposed for the south presentation now that it has closed as a school?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Sirius » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:11 pm

arch-i-tech-ur wrote:I have to do a project named place making
Actually its a project to bring human activities to a dead space.
The provided site is a religious monument which is now acting as a traffic island cause a road run round the site.
The first problem of the project was to provide a way to pedestrian whic I solved by changing some traffic routes and provinding a pedestrian path to connect the site.
Now the second problem I am facing is how to provide a reason to the people to visit the site.
The site is religiously important to some group of people so its now being a target to only those people for others its dead.
Since the site is on the major part of the city and monumental zone, its should be able to attract the rest of the people.
I just dont want to create a market space since its very near to a popular commercial zone.
Can any one suggest how I can attract people to my site.
Something innovative!
Sandeep.


Have you considered faking a miracle along the lines of the famous moving statue which put Ballinspittle on the map
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby A-ha » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:09 pm

Yes.... I know I haven't been on in ages, but thought I would throw in my pennies worth. Firstly, I'm not a fan of closing down our main thread, but it's still a good idea having threads related to specific topics. And secondly, just in case anyone didn't know because I didn't see it mentioned anywhere, Centralwings are starting flights from Cork to Krakow and Wroclaw in Poland. This, including flights already in operation to Katowice and Warsaw brings a total of 4 Polish destinations to Cork. This gives a total of 7 new routes to Cork for the month of June - Madrid, Lanzarote and Prague with Aer Lingus, Galway and Leeds-Bradford with Aer Arann and Wroclaw and Krakow with Centralwings. Not a bad start for our new terminal which opens July 10th.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Micko » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:08 pm

If you ask me, the gridlcok in certain areas of cork is due to bad interchanges.

None is worse than the Dunkettle Interchange.

Instead of having a roundabout, why not have a complete set of sliproads ala the American system.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby lawyer » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:24 pm

In fairness, the traffic lights at the Dunkettle Interchange have made a mighty difference.
The designers of the scheme deserve praise, which we are usually slow to give.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby THE_Chris » Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:03 pm

Yeah if Dunkettle/Glanmire interchanges were sorted properly, and the other two roundabout flyovers and associated slips were fixed, it would be pretty good.

The tunnel WILL be a nightmare again once the Kinsale Road one opens.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby a boyle » Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:29 pm

if traffic is increasing at such a rate then the only solution is to introduce tolling. The experience worldwide is unequivocal: you cannot build (roads) your way out of traffic congestion. You have to get people out of cars and into buses ,trams ,etc.

I have always noticed that cork has much better potential for introducing some proper public transport systems. But last time i was there is noticed that some proposed bus lane was in dispute. Putting these in place is what will improve your ring road (or reducing acces to the ringroad - not improving it ).
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby corcaighboy » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:12 am

Given the right conditions, people would most likely use public transport as an alternative to car travel. The problem is public transport is so bad in Cork that it is in reality not a viable option. In the few instances where there is a good transport alternative (such as the much improved Cork-Cobh rail service), people will frequent the service. But to expect people to get out of their car and wait for an infrequent (and usually dirty) bus which may or may not come is to expect too much. Furthermore, and as Thomond Park has pointed out on a few occasions, through ticketing is not available thereby complicating matters and making the whole user experience less than satisfactory.
I agree that clogging the roads with more traffic makes no sense, but until there is a viable transport alternative for commuters living in Cork's suburbs and satellite towns, then nothing will change.
Finally, Cork City Council are not exactly setting a precedent since their new office extension in City Hall includes 300 car park spaces for their own employees. Yet this is the organisation telling all and sundry that people should get out of their cars and take the bus/park & ride, train, etc. They also have the gall to limit car spaces in new developments in the city, but obviously only if it does not include them! With this kind of behaviour, one wonders how we can move forward.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PTB » Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:07 pm

A problem I experienced while trying to get to the marquee a few days ago was [Not being to used to using buses in the city] that there is two number two buses. One going north to Knocknaheeny and one going south to Mahon. What was worse was that the woman in the bus station gave me a timetable for the northbound bus. I can understand why tourists hate our public transport system [Ireland in general with the exception of the luas] when a city has two number two busses going in two different directions.

Jack Lynch Tunel: Apparently the tunnel is running well over the projected daily usage of 2012 [Somthing like that at least] which shows just how wrong the planners get it wrong. The most effective but most expensive solution, in my opinion at least, would be to build two tunnels parallell to the outsides of the current tunnel, go under the interchange and bring you up onto the N8. It would probably be very difficult to get it out given the rail track and road near the Ibis Hotel so its a bit of a dream. Or one could do the opposite and build a sunspension bridge which would be even more spectacular and farfetched. Ah well, I can dream cant I?
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby jungle » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:40 pm

PTB wrote:A problem I experienced while trying to get to the marquee a few days ago was [Not being to used to using buses in the city] that there is two number two buses. One going north to Knocknaheeny and one going south to Mahon. What was worse was that the woman in the bus station gave me a timetable for the northbound bus. I can understand why tourists hate our public transport system [Ireland in general with the exception of the luas] when a city has two number two busses going in two different directions.


It is in theory a cross-city route, like the 3, 7, 8 and 10. However all of these wait on Patrick St for so long that they effectively become two separate routes.

They could massively improve frequency of service if they could just improve the utilization of the current buses.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby corkdood » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:47 pm

mickeydocs wrote:anybody know what's proposed for the south presentation now that it has closed as a school?


Would like to know that myself. Also on a similar note what is to become of St Finbarrs Seminary Farranferris. This school has also closed down recently. Looks destined to become apartments I suppose? It has several large pitches and green spaces that look ripe for development.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby THE_Chris » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:50 pm

PTB wrote:A problem I experienced while trying to get to the marquee a few days ago was [Not being to used to using buses in the city] that there is two number two buses. One going north to Knocknaheeny and one going south to Mahon. What was worse was that the woman in the bus station gave me a timetable for the northbound bus. I can understand why tourists hate our public transport system [Ireland in general with the exception of the luas] when a city has two number two busses going in two different directions.

Jack Lynch Tunel: Apparently the tunnel is running well over the projected daily usage of 2012 [Somthing like that at least] which shows just how wrong the planners get it wrong. The most effective but most expensive solution, in my opinion at least, would be to build two tunnels parallell to the outsides of the current tunnel, go under the interchange and bring you up onto the N8. It would probably be very difficult to get it out given the rail track and road near the Ibis Hotel so its a bit of a dream. Or one could do the opposite and build a sunspension bridge which would be even more spectacular and farfetched. Ah well, I can dream cant I?


I'm no engineer, but I've thought a fair bit about how to make that roundabout freeflow without modifying the tunnel much.

All you have to do is take the current east-west N25 run and put THAT in a tunnel underneath the current roundabout. Then you could get rid of the roundabout and put freeflow slips everywhere to solve the current problems.

THe traffic lights were a stopgap.
It will get bad again.

Opening the Kinsale Road flyover will jam the tunnel up like mad.
Opening the 694 house development in Glanmire will make it worse.
Opening the north ring will make it even worse.

Yes, we're talking Red Cow Of The South with that roundabout. I dont think people realise just how bad its going to be in a few years time.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby PVC King » Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:02 pm

Simple solution would appear to be restrict development around Glanmire; provide a proper light rail system for the South City and grade seperate Dunkettle to provide a direct connection from the N8 to the N25 Tunnel without entering the roundabout with all other routes using the existing roundabout with a dramatically reduced traffic flow.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby Dieter » Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:50 pm

Thomond Park wrote:Simple solution would appear to be restrict development around Glanmire.


It's not as simple as that.

The traffic heading for the tunnel is not just generated by Glanmire, it is coming in from Fermoy and Midleton and all the settlements in between (Rathcormac Watergrasshill, Knockraha Glounthaune, Cobh, Carrigtwohill). People in Glanmire are not the only or even the main culprits. After all they have the option of avoiding the N8 interchange by going to the city via the old Dunkettle roundabout or over New Inn to Mayfield.

The problem is that the CASP strategy for 2021 puts most of the new development into the corridor of the Mallow to Midleton rail line, hoping that people will choose the train instead of the car. Perhaps they will eventually but the train service is not there yet and the development is already starting to build up. We don’t need short term knee-jerk solutions. We need cool heads and a sustainable long term strategy.

Trust the planners! They know what they’re doing!
.
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Re: Cork Transport

Postby jungle » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:46 pm

What about having the Dublin-Tunnel road as the through road, raising the roundabout and putting on the Cork-Waterford road. Which road has higher traffic volumes?

The only way I can imagine a completely free-flowing junction is by creating the N25 portion of the junction east of the current site and having a number of long elevated sliproads connecting the roads.
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