Liberty Hall redevelopment

Should Liberty Hall Be Listed?

Yes
168
46%
No
198
54%
 
Total votes : 366

Re: Liberty Hall

Postby electrolyte » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:11 pm

TTTTTTTTIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMBBBBBBBBBEEEEERRRRRRRRRRR!!!

Knock it, redevelop it, better it.

Y'all make it sound stunning! Its a glass (maybe even perspex) box with some waves on top....das it!
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby d_d_dallas » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:51 pm

Like it or, Liberty Hall has matured into an iconic structure of Dublin. It certainly stands up better than other structures of it's era and as such should be sensitively redeveloped. County Hall in Cork was gutted stripped and comprehensively altered despite protected status which screams of hypocrisy. When is an "old" building old? The building stock of Dublin worthy of preservation does not stop circa 1910.
In any case the removal of Lib Hall and redevelopment of the site to a lower (say 5+1) strucutre would actually worsen the effect of O'Connell Bridge house when viewing the Liffey from the West.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby paul lite » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:55 pm

electrolyte wrote:TTTTTTTTIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMBBBBBBBBBEEEEERRRRRRRRRRR!!!

Knock it, redevelop it, better it.

Y'all make it sound stunning! Its a glass (maybe even perspex) box with some waves on top....das it!


It's certainly not stunning but it has been around a long time and I think that is an important fact. I can't imagine Dublin without it. It does need plenty of work mind. Drag it into the 21st century I say and keep it tall. :)
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Rory W » Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:34 pm

Personally I'd like to see the whole thing restored to it's original 60s (pre-bomb) look.

Try thinking of it in this light - Imagine if some victorians said, "sod this - lets put victorian buildings around Merrion Square" - there would be no physical record of the Georgian buildings to look at. Fast forward a few centuries we are looking to get rid of liberty hall (and a few seek to get rid of O'Connell Bridge House) - by doing this we would lose two of the defining buildings of Dublin - like it or not these two 60s buildings are worthy of preservation, purely so that future generations can see these defining buildings.

I'm not an apologist for these buildings and there is plenty of others (Hawkins House, Clanwilliam Court etc) that I'd be delighted to see rid of, as well as most of the legoland crap apartment complexes that have been built in the last 15-20 years.

By all means knock the crap but keep the buildings that define the city.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:58 pm

I'm with Rory - if it is to be kept and upgraded - try and bright back the clarity of the original exterior design - there's no reason why it couldn't look very smart again.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby t.scott » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:08 pm

for such an inspiring and central location imagine something like renzo piano's nytimes tower in place of the current yoke. wishful thinking but surely we can do better than this 60's relic and as for the wavy bits.....come on lads...
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby alpha » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:13 pm

i don't like the green piece of lego on top of liberty hall. it spoils it. when plans came about to build liberty hall back in the sixties was it built according to plan or was it meant to be any different?
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby PVC King » Wed May 31, 2006 12:42 pm

As one planner described Liberty Hall it is a bit like any classical building in that it has detailing at both ground level and at the top. I would hate to see the building without this detailing.

Has anything come of proposals to dispose of / redevelop the building or was it merely an idea being floated?
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Pepsi » Wed May 31, 2006 2:57 pm

I'd like to see it being redeveloped. I would hate for them to get rid of it altogether and put a box in it's place. A fresh new Liberty Hall would look nice.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby GregF » Wed May 31, 2006 5:59 pm

The Liberty Hall should definitely be given a make over....not a botcher contemporary makeover but a restoration job of how it once looked instead. I saw it on 'Reeling in the Years 'one evening on the telly when it was first built back in the 60's and it looked superb. It was a great complimentary building for Scotts Busaras which should be fully restored too. Contemporary makeovers can sometimes ruin buildings, faithful restoration should always be an option.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby PVC King » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:28 pm

Many people forget about the context of Liberty Hall in relation to Busaras and I'm sure it was designed with that in mind but that the relationship has been largely altered by the addition of the Irish Life Centre in the 1970's.

A restoration of Liberty Hall would be desirable but I would have concerns that the original glazing would be difficult to replace given the trend towards lower energy consumption aided by reflective or heavily tinted glass to reduce direct sunlight and consequently air-con requirement.

One thing that has always struck me about liberty hall is the way that people rarely complain about its outdated appearance vis a vis commercial buildings; I wonder is this a subconscious conclusion that because it is a union building it is therefore suited to having a dated context?
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby lostexpectation » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:26 am

[quote="Thomond Park"]Many people forget about the context of Liberty Hall in relation to Busaras and I'm sure it was designed with that in mind but that the relationship has been largely altered by the addition of the Irish Life Centre in the 1970's.

A restoration of Liberty Hall would be desirable but I would have concerns that the original glazing would be difficult to replace given the trend towards lower energy consumption aided by reflective or heavily tinted glass to reduce direct sunlight and consequently air-con requirement.

One thing that has always struck me about liberty hall is the way that people rarely complain about its outdated appearance vis a vis commercial buildings]


I think people like its bluish windows? Would replacemets go dark ala the temple of doom?
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby rag » Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:29 am

[quote="Thomond Park"]One thing that has always struck me about liberty hall is the way that people rarely complain about its outdated appearance vis a vis commercial buildings]


I think the complaints are probably due to its promenant positon beside the trio of busy roads, the loop line bridge, and the liffey. Also, the fact that it was (still is?) the tallest building in Dublin is bound to get it attension.

I must admit, I do like that jagged wave roof.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Cathal Dunne » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:02 pm

I think Liberty Hall should be demolished and all within the complex and rebuild it much higher. There is a huge landbank there besides the central tower piercing the sky above Dublin in two. I say build it up to about 25 storeys with a gorgeous restaurant, gift shop and viewing platform on the top. As well as that rebuild, they could literally put message boards on the side, they could make money on it. People could log on to a website, write a message, have it passed through moderators to make sure its not something slanderous/libellous and pay a fee for it. It could give us some sort of public space in the air for Dublin and give Dublin the air of a hyber-modern Asian megacity.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Rory W » Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:45 pm

Cathal Dunne wrote:It could give us some sort of public space in the air for Dublin and give Dublin the air of a hyber-modern Asian megacity.


Dublin wouldn't have the air of a hypermodern asian megacity if you plonked it down in the middle of Hong Kong - what needs to be done is to clean the bejasus out of the place and stop tolerating the filth, drugs and general scumminess of the city (BTW: I love Dublin but it really is getting worse and resembles somewhere like Sheffield - in fact I felt safer going out the last time I was in Sheffield).

As for Liberty hall - restore it
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby constat » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:07 pm

Rory W wrote:Dublin wouldn't have the air of a hypermodern asian megacity if you plonked it down in the middle of Hong Kong - what needs to be done is to clean the bejasus out of the place and stop tolerating the filth, drugs and general scumminess of the city (BTW: I love Dublin but it really is getting worse and resembles somewhere like Sheffield - in fact I felt safer going out the last time I was in Sheffield).

As for Liberty hall - restore it


Spot on Rory,

Here in Paris, even some of the more dodgy council Projects or “Cités” often look tidier than most Dublin streets, but hey, I guess Dirty Dublin simply has a reputation to defend!
Liberty Hall just needs revamping, there are many other buildings in the city that need to be tore down, and I’m thinking especially of new tacky apartment blocks!
Has anyone seen the new apartment block on the site of the old Leinster cinema on Dolphins Barn? It’s about 9 stories high and appears as though it was made of red bricks recuperated from the demolished Fatima Mansion flats down the road from where it stands, it looks dreadful! :
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Peter Fitz » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:53 pm

From today's IT

Should union be at liberty to pull down Hall?

To be, or not to be: that is the stark question hanging over Dublin's iconic Liberty Hall, writes Frank McDonald , Environment Editor.

LIBERTY Hall occupies a special place in the consciousness of Dublin. Love it or loathe it, the city's first "skyscraper" was - and still is - the icon of an earlier era, when Dublin was emerging from the pervasive gloom of the 1950s into a period of relative prosperity and hope for the future.

More than four decades after it was officially opened as the proud new headquarters of the Irish Transport and General Workers Union, and despite all the talk and plans to build higher elsewhere, it retains its status as the tallest building in Dublin with 17 storeys that rise to a height of 60 metres (198 feet).

While it was being built in the early 1960s, Dubliners watched with a mixture of awe and excitement as the reinforced concrete structure rose up from Eden Quay. And when it was finally finished in 1965, Liberty Hall was hailed as a "crystal tower" and an "inspiring monument" for Irish trade unionism.

Some commentators were bowled over. "Under the changing skies of our climate - at night lighted up, or in the daytime - it always looks handsome," said a gushing review in the Irish Builder. "When seen against a blue sky with white clouds sailing over, it has a gossamer quality as charming as a Japanese print scene."

It lost that quality after a bomb exploded outside the building in 1972. Windows were given a reflective shatterproof coating that took away the transparency it once had while security considerations led to the closure of its observation deck. Mosaic cladding on the edge of each floor also fell into decay and has since disappeared.

Last October, after SIPTU announced that the demolition and replacement of Liberty Hall was being seriously considered, nearly 2,000 people from many parts of Ireland availed of the Architecture Foundation's Open House weekend to see its interior for themselves and enjoy views of Dublin from the penthouse level.

Antoinette O'Neill, co-ordinator of Open House, said many visitors were shocked by the idea that the city's tallest building could be lost. "What the huge turnout showed, I think, is that people see Liberty Hall not just as SIPTU's headquarters, but also as something that belongs to them. So there is this sense of public ownership."

Desmond Rea O'Kelly, the structural engineer-architect who designed it, was quite overwhelmed by the response: "They were so enthusiastic that I got the impression they were going to get banners and have a protest march there and then." And naturally, he is upset by the proposal to demolish his magnum opus.

"We all have our vanities, which are hard to suppress," he said. "One of the other things I also regret very much is that Oisín Kelly's great sculpture of the young man and the older man admiring their work was never put up outside Liberty Hall." Ironically, they ended up outside the few-feet-higher Cork County Hall.

Now aged 83, O'Kelly revealed that his inspiration for Liberty Hall was Frank Lloyd Wright's headquarters for Johnson Wax in Wisconsin.

But he denied that the wavy roof of his tower, with its striped undercroft, was a conscious deference to Busáras. As for its fate, he simply said: "Would they kindly leave it alone till I'm gone."

For SIPTU, however, it is little more than jaded, dysfunctional office space. The real problem is that its service core - lifts, stairs, toilets, etc - occupies 40 per cent of the 289sq m (3,111sq ft) floorplate at each level, leaving room for relatively pokey offices around the outer edges laid out along quadrangular corridors.

Thus, re-cladding the tower would not solve the "gross-to-net" floor ratio problem. And since the union has resolved to remain on its historic site, all sorts of alternative options - such as converting the building to residential use, with perhaps two L-shaped apartments per floor - have been ruled out of consideration.

SIPTU may be sentimental about the site, but it clearly has no affection for what stands there. After all, it demolished the original Liberty Hall, which had been restored after being shelled during the 1916 Rising, to make way for the present building; it was from there that the rebels formed up to march to the GPO.

Now, the union is planning to demolish its successor. Joe O'Flynn, its Cork-born general secretary, conceded that the 17-storey tower has an iconic status. "Huge consideration was given to this and, as a national organisation, we have a huge responsibility to ensure that the heritage of the site is respected."

He stressed that SIPTU had no intention of building an eight-storey "square box" simply to maximise the value of this prime city centre site. The development of offices and other facilities which the union had in mind would include a new tower that "should be as elegant as Liberty Hall and become as iconic in time".

SIPTU needs about 5,000sq m (53,820sq ft) of offices, according to Joe O'Flynn. However, to make the project viable, it would include a further 4,000sq m (43,050sq ft) for commercial letting, as well as space for the union's college and a hall to replace the existing one, which was renovated only a few years ago.

But any new tower on the site would obviously be more substantial than the existing building. If it is to have a floorplate of, say, 600sq m (6,458sq ft), it would inevitably need to be taller to achieve an appropriate "slenderness ratio". At a minimum, therefore, it would rise to 87.5 metres - nearly 50 per cent higher.

A design brief for an architectural competition to find such a replacement is now being finalised, and the intention is to advertise it in the EU's Official Journal. From the expressions of interest, a SIPTU-dominated jury would select a shortlist of entrants for interview and, finally, an architect would be chosen.

Veteran Dublin architect Brian Hogan, who is advising the union, described Liberty Hall as a more high-profile case of older office blocks becoming obsolete: "They have a shorter and shorter lifespan these days. I've seen buildings I've worked on myself being demolished, but I don't have strong sentimental views."

When Liberty Hall was designed in 1958, the ITGWU was organised in small branches for which cellular office space was quite adequate; it was not the corporate body that SIPTU has become. "The original building was replaced in the 1960s, but time has moved on and we need to meet the requirements of the age."

It will be a matter for Dublin City Council's planners to decide, or perhaps even the councillors themselves. With the much less prominent Bank of Ireland in Baggot Street in the process of being made a protected structure, the fate of Liberty Hall needs careful consideration and much more public debate.

© 2007 The Irish Times
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby lostexpectation » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:06 pm

Peter FitzPatrick wrote:From today's IT



any pics from when it was built?
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Peter Fitz » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:17 pm

no just a current pic in todays paper ... pics of the original with the transparent glazing are fairly hard to come by ... think i came across one in an old capuchin annual will have a look to see if i can route it out...
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby paul h » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:25 pm

Sometimes irish sentimentality is truly bewildering
I am sure some of the same people who 'love' it now are the same people who would oppose any similar building being constructed elsewhere in the city!
It doesn't look good, the roof looks terrible and i dont think it has any heritage value whatsover, other than
when peolpe feel sentimental
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Keen » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:55 pm

i was looking up at this today and it looks awful with all the broken windows, it almost looks condemned, i say tear it down first and then spend some time and effort with the replacement
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Morlan » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:27 am

They say in the article that the new tower element would have to be at least 24 floors high to be worth their while.
What do you guys think about that? It would never get PP surely. They did say that a fat 8 story block would not be an option which is good news.

I say keep Liberty Hall!


lostexpectation wrote:any pics from when it was built?


Image
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby darkman » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:21 am

Morlan wrote:They say in the article that the new tower element would have to be at least 24 floors high to be worth their while.
What do you guys think about that? It would never get PP surely. They did say that a fat 8 story block would not be an option which is good news.

I say keep Liberty Hall!




Image


8 storeys would be an option? Are you mad? No, we need a 25 storey block here IMO. We have to get over this pahtetic argument against highrise because as a Capital city we have been left behind and a couple of 100m + towers in docklands is not going to change that. IMO a 30 storey tower would look well there.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Morlan » Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:09 am

darkman, read my post again.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Paul Clerkin » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:31 pm

There is no way that they should be allowed built 20+ stories so close to the Custom House - none at all..... In fact I would go so far as to say they should continue the parapet line of the other buildings on this quay if they pull down Liberty Hall.
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