reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:55 pm

IT IS a playground - for wayward 'children'.
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Peter Parler » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:35 pm

52 / Praxiteles, I am still thinking about those Proconsuls. Did you know that it was the Dictator Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix (http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulla) who decreed in 80 B.C. that the Provinces were to be governed by ex-Consuls? It was a way of getting them out of Rome once they had outlived their usefulness. Apparently they were appointed for a maximum of five years - but of course few of them survived that long. It was never meant that they should! See http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proconsul
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:29 pm

Re Jerome Reilly's article reproduced in no. 65: it should be noted that A.W.N. Pugin died, at the age of 40, on 14 September 1852 as a result, not of insanity, but probably of the effects of mercury poisoning cf. Rosemary Hill, Augustus Welby Northmoe Pugin: A Biographical Sketch, in A.W.N. Pugin:Master of Gothic Revival,Yale University Press, New Haven and London 1995.
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:34 pm

For the picture gallery: a view of the west elevation of St. Colman's Cathedral Cobh.
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:53 pm

Another view of the interior of St. Mary's Cathedral, Killarney from c. 1899.
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby GrahamH » Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:26 am

A magnificent 'strong' building: very imposing and located on a fine site - indeed one of the best aspects of the building is its environment.

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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Neo Goth » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:44 am

Across the harbour from Cobh Cathedral the North Cathedral in Cork was vandalised by the liturrgical refurbishers,,,
Unfortunately this is another classical example of the after being worse than the before..

BEFORE
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AFTER
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:53 pm

After Killarney, Armagh must be one of the most questionable attempts at "reordering". The building was begun in 1840 to designs by Thomas Duff of Newry but suspended because of the famine. It was resumed to plans by JJ McCarthy and the interior completed by G.C. Ashlin. Circa 1980, Ashlin's original sanctuary was all but destroyed by an already liturgically dated effort by Liam McCormack. Casulties of the iconoclasm include Cesare Aureli high altars, Beakey's pulpit, the roodscreen, M. Dorey's choir stalls, and the 1875 Telford organ.
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Armagh 1.jpg
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:15 pm

Another example for the list of "reorderings" that should not have happened is the Cathedral of the Assumption in Tuam, Co. Galway. Begun in 1837 by Archbishop John McHale to ambitious plans by the little known Dominic Madden, it was regarded as one of the finest examples of early Gothic revival in Ireland. The fine window behind the (demolished) high altar is by Michael O'Connor (1860). An iconoclastic outburst in 1979 saw the destruction the original baldichino, transcept altars, pulpit and altar rails. A further effort was made in 1991 under the direction of Ray Carroll which saw the demolition of the high altar, and the implantation of a misplaced faux roodscreen which succeeded in obscuring the lower part of O'Connor's window. The great Lion of the West lies beneath all this, his crypt in-filled with the rubble of his own creation. One commentator described the overall present effect as reminicent of a set for a re-run of Snow White and the seven dwarfs.
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:46 pm

Dominic Madden's Cathedral of St. Peter and St Paul in Ennis is another example of liturgical adaptation gone wrong. Begun in 1828 and completed by 1842, the decoration of the interior was assigned to JJ McCarthy who is responsible for the internal pillars, with traceried spandrels, and galleries. The building was re-decorated in a renovation begun in 1894 under the direction of Joshua Clarke, father of Harry Clarke. The fresco of the Assumption, which stood behind and above JJ McCarthy's (demolished) high altar, is by Nagle and Potts. Ennis Cathedral was one of the first in the country to undergo "reordering" according to a perceived need to bring it into conformity with the liturgical requirements of the Second Vatican Council. The guiding light in this was Michael Harty, dean of Maynooth College and subsequently Bishop of Killaloe. Although not an academic nor a trained liturgist , and more at home in teaching rubrics, Michael Harty acquired a reputation in church architecture circles for boldly going where no one went before and exercised a main morte on the design /execution of many Irish churches from the seventies on - his first being the ruination of St Mary's Chapel in Maynooth College. Andy Devane was the architect for the Ennis "reordering", backed up by the subtle aestesia of Enda King. The new altar and ambo were done in the erratic natural boulder style highly reminiscent of the de Bello Gallico's descriptions of druidic ritual. As in many of the Irish Cathedral "reorderings", the noteworthy dissapearance of the Chapter Choir stalls is significant.
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:26 am

The red rosette in the outré class of the Irish cathedrals' reordering stakes must surely go to St. Peter's Cathedral in Belfast. Designed by Jeremiah Ryan McAuley, the foundation stone was laid in 1860. The building opened for public worship in 1866. The present refurbishment was undertaken by the late Cardinal Cahal Daly in 1982 and concentrated to a peculiar degree of obsession on the doctrinaire insertion of the Cathedra in basilical fashion behind a miniscule altar. All major components were executed in Cardinal Daly's preferred wooden types resulting in a precarious dependence on aesthetically poised flower arrangements to relieve a brooding monotony. Again, the Cathedral Chapter has been unseated and Choir Stalls are nowhere to be seen. "Further refurbishment is planned so that St. Peter's Cathedral will be an adornment in the regeneration currently taking place in inner Belfast". Nobody seems to want to own up for all of this.
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:28 am

Has some discreet cloning taken place in architectural circles in Ireland. From what I have seen so far it is all a variation on the same theme. Not only that, it is a theme that is pursued regardless of the setting. Maybe we should have a poll as to which is the most insensitive re-ordering to date. Any takers?
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:37 am

Does anybody know which architect is responsible for the re-ordering of St.Peters in Belfast? Was it perhaps Ray Carroll?
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:28 am

My vote on the worst re-ordering to date goes to Tuam. :eek:
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:16 am

:cool:
Thought that this comment was worth sharing. One only hopes that this state of affairs can be maintained.

TAKING STOCK OF OUR ECCLESIASTICAL HERITAGE
The Heritage Council 1998

John Maiben Gilmartin.
Ecclesiastical Works of Art

However, the positive and the good must not be disregarded. Mention should be made of initiatives of high merit, such as the maintenance of Cobh Cathedral both externally and internally. This building has an outstanding interior which almost alone of Irish nineteenth century cathedrals survives intact. The beneficent authorities at Cobh have also seen that their fine collection of textiles has been superbly restored and conserved.
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby the bull » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:26 am

Killarney, Monaghan, Armagh, Tuam,Ennis,Belfast,.............. My God how do they get away with it.

This must not happen in Cobh
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby the bull » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:32 am

RE no 89 I agree my vote goes to Tuam for the worst re-ordering to date. With Ennis as a close runner up.
Killarney is in a category all of its own
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:35 am

Re.#91 They have been getting away with it because the only ones to object are their own parishioners and in the stratospheric world of architects and clerics they do not count. Fortunately in Cobh there is a very organised and informed opposition who hopefully will prevail.They have a wonderful website -www.foscc.com
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:50 am

Another boring application of the hackneyed pastiche formula - St. Eugene's Cathedral in Derry. Begun in 1851 to designs by an unknown and eventually to plans of JJ McCarthy, St. Eugene's was consecrated in 1873. The spire designed by G.C. Ashlin, added in 1899, was completed in 1903. The glass is by Mayer of Munich. Liam McCormack of Armagh Cathedral fame also struck in Derry in 1975.
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:06 am

Derry (#94) looks positively dangerous. Has anyone fallen off yet?
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:05 pm

Longford Cathedral was widely regarded as Ireland's finest example of a neo-Classical cathedral. The original architect was John Benjamine Keane with subsequent contributions from John Bourke (campanile of 1860) and the near ubiquitous G.C. Ashlin who is responsible for the impeccably proportioned portico (1883-1913) commissioned by Bishop Bartholomew Woodlock of Catholic University fame. The internal plaster work is Italian as were the (demolished) lateral altars. It was opened for public worship in 1856. In the 1970s a major re-styling of the sanctuary was undertaken by Bishop Cathal Daly who employed the services of Wilfred Cantwell and Ray Carroll. J. Bourke's elaborate high altar altar and choir stalls were demolished and replaced by an austere arrangement focused on a disproportionately scaled altar. The results, which have not drawn the kind of universal criticism reserved for Armagh and Killarney, nevertheless leave the interior of the building without a natural focus. The insertion of tapesteries between the columns of the central apse was an attempt to fill the void and would be used again to solve a similar problem in the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin. The absence of choir stalls is to be noted as is the relative obscurity of the Cathedra - the very raison d'etre for the building.
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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:11 pm

Praxiteles wrote:After Killarney, Armagh must be one of the most questionable attempts at "reordering". The building was begun in 1840 to designs by Thomas Duff of Newry but suspended because of the famine. It was resumed to plans by JJ McCarthy and the interior completed by G.C. Ashlin. Circa 1980, Ashlin's original sanctuary was all but destroyed by an already liturgically dated effort by Liam McCormack. Casulties of the iconoclasm include Cesare Aureli high altars, Beakey's pulpit, the roodscreen, M. Dorey's choir stalls, and the 1875 Telford organ.



More on the interior of Armagh
http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/armagh/armagh/st_patricks_interior.html

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Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:14 pm

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Re: reordering and destruction of irish cathedrals - St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby johannas » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:32 pm

Or what about Wexford, does anyone know if this Cathedral of Pugin design has been laid bare to the vandals?
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Re: Oppenheimer mosaics

Postby Mosaic1 » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:45 pm

Dear thread contributors,

I am 'Mosaic1' and I am new to your discussions, which are very interesting to me. You have been discussing the work of Ludwig Oppenheimer Ltd. in relation to Cobh & elsewhere and Iyou might like to know that there are 2 additional churches that may contain their work - St. Fintan's, in Taghmon, Co. Wexford, and St. Mary's, in Listowel, Co. Kerry.

With scholars and mosaic enthusiasts in Ireland and the U.K., I have been researching the firm for some time now, prompted initially by the apparent, and puzzling, absence of information on them and their work. We now know a good deal more about the firm and the people and are hoping to have a seminar and to publish a book on them and their works. The firm was founded in 1865 in Manchester and operated until 1965. It's mosaics are known in Ireland, England, France and 1 in the U.S. Bizarrely for a Manchester based firm, most of their presently known work is in Ireland, so much remains to be learnt about their work in Britain.

If anybody has any information or knows of any possible sources of such, I'd be very grateful to hear from them.

Kind regards, and many thanks in advance for your help,

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