reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:48 pm

Is that it? Is the whole of Ireland 'comfortably numb' ? Does writing here constitute action? Do we just let the Bishop and O'Neill get away with this? We can't blame the politicians for this one. You all seem to know what you are talking about so tell me what can one do about this sort of thing?
MacLeinin
Member
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Co. Cork

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby descamps » Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:12 pm

I was in Cork last week and went out to see the cathedral in Cobh. It is truly spectacular and it is a small miracle that it has survived for so long without the kind of ravages practiced on Killarney by Eamonn Casey or on Monaghan by Joe Duffy. Looking over the plans for this fine little gem, I cannot help but think that John Magee and Tom Cavanagh (aka Mr. Tidy towns of Ireland) have more money than sense - or good taste.
descamps
Member
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:06 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:53 pm

Perhaps the comments on architectural theory contained in the following link could be brought to bear on the Cobh Cathedral business: http://www.profil.at/?/articles/0544/560/125321.shtml
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6060
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:32 pm

Further interesting comments are available on the subject of liturgy and architecture at http://www.kreuz.net/article.2121.html . Unfortunately, the English and French translations are very inadequate.
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6060
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Peter Parler » Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:46 pm

Has Bishop Magee no fear of God? Could they not get Pope Benedict to scribble him a quick note to let him know they'll soon be putting everything back the way it was before the liturgical vandals were let loose?
Peter Parler
Member
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:30 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:02 am

"When men have come to the edge of a precipice, it is the lover of life who has the spirit to leap backwards, and only the pessimist who continues to believe in progress."

"It is of the new things that men tire - of fashions and proposals and improvements and change. It is the old things that startle and intoxicate. It is the old things that are young."

Do pessimists fear God?
Gianlorenzo
Member
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Peter Parler » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:54 pm

The article referred to by Praxiteles in #28 is absolutely relevant to poor Cobh. The Lady Church in Dresden was destoyed free of charge in 1945 and in its ruined state remained a monument to the barbarity of war and the atheistic convictions of Communism until its resurrection began in 1990, a symbol of generosity, reconciliation and a new freedom. Surely at this time of episcopal shame the Bishop of Cloyne could offer a similar generosity, reconciliation and renewal of freedom to the Friends of Saint Colman's and all who care for our religious and architectural heritage, at minimal pain to himself or the coffers of his Diocese. Isn't there something in the Gospel against Christians forcing one another to appeal to civil tribunals for justice? Isn't pride a terrible, terrible thing? Haven't we all better things to be doing?
Peter Parler
Member
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:30 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:11 am

Someone has pointed out to me that in 1999, the Cobh Cathedral restoration Committee received a grant of some £8,937 from the Heritage Council to finance a conservation study of St. Colman's Cathedral.

The Conservation study was completed in early 2001 by Carrig of Dublin. This fine and original study was very competently carried out by Jesse Castle Metlitski and Richard Oram.

Along with synthesizing a vast amount of archival material, much of which was examined for the first time, the study produced an important photographic archive of Cobh Cathedral.

The authors of the study concluded: "The wealth of information and sources pertaining to the design and construction of St. Colman's can provide a unique insight into the whole process of the construction of such a building as this cathedral while providing a remarkable record. The importance of this material can not be overstated. This, together with the definitive record which is the cathedral itself, must be preserved and safeguarded for future generations".

The authors also note: "The design is very finely tuned and any interventions which might contradict the delicate interplay of parts have the potential to compromise the architectural quality of the building. When St Colman's was build it was already one of the finst expressions of the Gothic Revival style in Ireland. This eminence has been held to the present day".

The proposals for the reordering of the Cathedral's interior pay not the slightest heed to such remarks and have been elaborated as though the Metlitski/Oram conservation report never happened.
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6060
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby johannas » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:31 am

Does anyone have any information about Ludwig Oppenheimer's career?
johannas
Member
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:23 am

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:11 am

Information on Ludwig Oppenheimer is difficult to come by. What I know is that, in addition to St. Colman’s Cathedral, he is credited with the magnificent mosaics in the National Museum of Ireland –Archaeology and History. The floors are decorated with scenes from classical mythology and allegory, and are worth a visit to the museum in themselves. He is also credited with the wonderful mosaic floor of the Honan Chapel, University College, Cork. Biographical details for Oppenheimer, I have found, is very difficult to come by, perhaps other visitor this site may be able to help.
MacLeinin
Member
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Co. Cork

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby ctesiphon » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:40 am

There was a lavishly illustrated monograph published not so long ago on the Honan Chapel (maybe by Cork University Press?). It might have some leads.
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:03 am

This must have been Virginia Teehan and Elizabeth Wincott-Heckett's The Honan Chapel: A Golden Vision published by Cork University Press in 2004. Chapter 5 of same, by Jane Hawkes, has a long excursus on the symbolism of the magnificent mosaic floor which is by Ludwig Oppenheimer. He is also responsible for the stations of the cross in opus sectile. Oppenheimer's work in the Honan Chapel was never publicized for it was the only work carried out there by a non Irish company. It has been suggested that he was commissioned to execute the mosaic floor and the stations of the cross through the influence of the Cork architect Thomas Newhenam Deane or of W. A. Scott who had worked on the Dublin Museum. As in Cobh Cathedral, Oppenheimer's mosaic work was complemented in the Honan Chapel by the brass and iron work of J&G McGloughlin of Dublin.
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6060
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:39 am

Information on Ludwig Oppenheimer is difficult to come by. What I know is that, in addition to St. Colman’s Cathedral, he is credited with the magnificent mosaics in the National Museum of Ireland –Archaeology and History. The floors are decorated with scenes from classical mythology and allegory, and are worth a visit to the museum in themselves. He is also credited with the wonderful mosaic floor of the Honan Chapel, University College, Cork.
Biographical details for Oppenheimer, is very difficult to come by, perhaps other visitor this site may be able to help.
MacLeinin
Member
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Co. Cork

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:48 am

Ludwig Oppenheimer may well be responsible for the very elaborate moasic work on the floor and walls of the chancel of the church of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross in Charleville, Co. Cork. This work is about a decade later than Cobh Cathedral (Walter Doolin exhibited designs for the church at RHA in 1898) but the similarities are unmistakable (e.g. the floors of the Sacred Heart and Lady Chapels in Cobh and Charleville). Unfortunately, the floor in the main chancel space in Charleville has been buried under several tons of concrete to make an emplacment for a hidiously unsympathetic re-ordering. It is possible that Oppenheimer' may have had the commission in Charleville through the patronage of Bishop Robert Browne who was a native of Charleville and, in contrast with the present encumbent in Cobh, a very generous benefactor both of St. Colman's Cathedral, Cobh ,and of the new parish church in Charleville.
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6060
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby GrahamH » Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:24 am

Another case of mosaics being covered over is in a modest but significant Ralph Byrne church c1920 in the North East, where the usual finance commitee of the parish elite saw fit to cover over the highly attractive grape vine mosaics of the altar floor with 'a nice bit of carpet' in the late 90s.
A large timber step was also partially built on top to regularise the step line and was also covered in carpet, which not only completely altered the nature of the altar design, but no doubt damaged the mosaics beneath too by its attachment to them, as with the carpet grippers drilled or glued onto the marble edging.
You see this type of practice a lot in small to middle-sized churches which is a great shame.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4592
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Neo Goth » Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:51 am

I guess most people on this thread have visited the brilliant website by the Friends of St Colman's Cathedral at http://www.foscc.com my compliments to the friends for trying to stop this latest outbreak of architectural vandalism.

Neo-Goths of the world unite and strike back!
Neo Goth
Member
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:20 am

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:55 am

In Cobh Cathedral, for years the great central motif of the moasic in the chancel was covered by a green carpet ivo-stuck to the floor. In the first phase of the Cathedral restoration it was removed. Because it had been glued to the floor, and at a time when there was still some bit of respect for Oppenheimer's work, it was taken up by steeping it in large quantities of petrol to avoid tearing up the tesserae of the mosaic. At that time, a phoney appreciation of the central chancel mosaic was used to justify removing the altar rails - all quietly forgotten, however, since Cathal O'Neill proposed digging out the entire floor, mosaic and all.
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6060
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:41 pm

Oppenheimer is also credited with the design of the Clonard Redemptorist Church, Falls Rd., Belfast.

This church, also known as the Church of the Holy Redeemer, occupies a dramatic site on one wing of a three-sided courtyard. It is linked by a tower to the red brick and sandstone monastery extension. There is a large rose window in the west façade.
Clonard was designed in early French Gothic style by Ludwig Oppenheimer and built in 1897 by the Naughton brothers of Randalstown. It is home to the Redemptorists, who were founded in Italy in 1732 and contains mosaics from Gabriel Loire of Chartres. The Monastery was the scene of the first contacts that started the Northern Ireland peace process in the early 1990s.
http://www.gotobelfast.com/index.
Gianlorenzo
Member
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:45 pm

After a little digging, it appears that Ludwig Oppenheimer worked on several major projects in Ireland:The Dublin Museum (1890); Cobh Cathedral (1892); Sts Augustine and John, Thomas Street, Dublin (c.1899); Newry Cathedral (1904-1909); Redemptorist Church, Limerick (1927); Sts. Peter and Paul, Clonmel (??); St. Mary's, Nenagh (1910); the Honan Chapel, UCC,Cork (c.1915); Clonakilty; Fermoy; Midleton; Kilmallock. Interestingly, George Ashlin was involved in all of the above mentioned projects (except the Honan Chapel and Dublin Museum) and seems consistently to have retained Ludwig Oppenheimer to carry out mosaic work.
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6060
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Neo Goth » Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:26 pm

So the proposed changes necessitate the destruction of the mosaic floor of the cathedral but what will be put there in its place? Does the architect favour the bathroom tile model of the cathedral in Killarney?
Neo Goth
Member
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:20 am

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:43 pm

A pastiche job is proposed incorporating salvage from the present central mosaic and some matching glories imported from the Domus Dei people who similarly obliged -albeit much less radically- in Newry (1992). Apart from that, no specifics have been outlined by Cathal O'Neill for the replacement.
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6060
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:24 pm

I thought that the Parish Church in Nenagh was by Walter Doolin, not Ashlin.
MacLeinin
Member
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Co. Cork

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:33 pm

Yes, you are correct. The parish church in Nenagh is by Walter Doolin. Ashlin was the assessor for the competition and chose Doolin's submission. Walter Doolin had also been George Ashlin's pupil. Jermey WIlliams in his Companion Guide to Architecture in Ireland 1837-1921 describes Doolin's as a conservative architecture derived from Ashlin. The interiors of his churches "come as a welcome relief due to his determination to create a multi-coloured paradise out of the chancels, relying not only on frescoes, and stained glass but also on mosaics, and wrought iron grilles, painted and decorated". G. Ashling completed Nenagh in 1910. You might also note that Walter Doolin is also the architect for the parish church in Charleville which explains Oppenheimer's mosaic work there.
Praxiteles
Old Master
 
Posts: 6060
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby MacLeinin » Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:39 pm

Thanks for that.
Can anyone confirm that the mosaic work in Charleville - that can still be seen - is by Oppenheimer.
MacLeinin
Member
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: Co. Cork

Re: St Colmans Cathedral, Cobh

Postby Gianlorenzo » Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:48 pm

:confused: At present the Sedelia has been removed from right hand Sanctuary screen and is now free standing in Sanctuary and a dining chair put in its place.

Can anyone explain who this can happen since the building was listed as a protected structure and is the subject of a Covenant with the Heritage Council
Attachments
Pic 15 & 16 Cathedral.jpg
Pic 15 & 16 Cathedral.jpg (219.69 KiB) Viewed 6784 times
Gianlorenzo
Member
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:36 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland



cron