Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

I think...

Complete waste of money - I don't want it
57
23%
Destroys the visual appearance of the city - I don't want it
101
40%
Disneyland gimmickry - it will never happen
64
26%
I welcome it
28
11%
 
Total votes : 250

Re: Liffey Cable Car

Postby Pepsi » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:48 pm

I like the idea of a cable car but I don't like the planned route. It would look terrible and should stay away from the historical areas. I would be in favour of it if it were confined to the docklands.
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Re: Liffey Cable Car

Postby GregF » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:05 pm

A simpler and more practical idea, why not just dredge the Liffey and clean out the muck and pollution. Clean the remainder of the quay walls. Touch up the bridges again. Be consistant and plant trees in a symmetrical fashion along the quaysides and put fecking boats on the river.
The time in the slime wasn't a bad concept really, it was just executed very badly.
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Re: Liffey Cable Car

Postby GregF » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:11 pm

Gas how there seems to be a willingness to put up all sorts of aerial clutter...pylons, cables, masts, poles, satellite dishes,chimneys etc.... throughout the city, yet when a building over 4 storeys is proposed there is a large hoo-haa about it.
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Re: Liffey Cable Car

Postby Morlan » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:02 pm

Thomond Park wrote:Personally I feel that a combination of a



..and the rejuvination of West Morlan Street and College Green.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby GrahamH » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:56 pm

:)


Just to expand on what Niall said earlier: no NO NO NO

Demonstrating just how farcical a proposal this is, I thought the thread's removal from Ireland was down to it being a practical joke after all, and that it had been deleted :rolleyes:

Whatever about the historic city core, any city would be destroyed with such muck draped across its skyline - what a hideous concotion it is. Talk about one-off house syndrome that F McD so vents on about - building a structure to capture a view only to devastate the very landscape the vantage point is being built on.

It's an ugly idea, a pointless idea in contrast with other tourist possibilities, and a fundamentaly stupid-looking one. A small Irish city, as flat as a pancake, barely rising above five storeys, with cable cars strung above it in some sort of techno-space-age-Jetsons fantasy for the benefit of camera clicking tourists.
What an embarrassment.
Dump it now City Council before you end up with a Grattan Bridge II of mammoth proportions.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby Cute Panda » Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:06 pm

The poll is very biased as it was set up to try and force people to vote against it. I am disapointed by the barely hidden subtext of the poll which is not what I have come to expect from this normally open-minded forum.

Why was a simple "Yes/No" poll instaed of a tabloidesque editorial in the guise of a poll?

I think it is a really good idea and it won't cost the taxpayers anything. It is not a public transport project and does not pretend to be either, and were some people are getting this from is beyond me!

It's an inovative tourist project and this is how it should be seen.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby lostexpectation » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:28 pm

why didn't they show the bit where people get on or off, does the car do a vert or is there a big spiral staircase?:rolleyes:
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:44 pm

aha - now you've hit the nail on the head, there's probably two office blocks at either end, the cable car is a trojan horse ;)
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby PVC King » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:27 pm

Just like the rail spur for Shannon Airport that evaporated once the Shannon Sky Court was built,

same company I feel a Vega City play coming on

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=2504&highlight=vega+city

However in fairness they did at least get a semi-decent design for the cable car supports even if it required a rope ladder for access ;)
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:35 pm

See that was my thought immediately - Vega City II
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby Cute Panda » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:48 pm

This is just personal speculation, but perhaps there are no spiral staircases on with ends, and the cable car returns to street level or near at both ends? This is what cable cars were designed to do - steep vertical accents and decents. No reason why the cable from the most eastern tower makes a steep incline down to Spencer Dock (same at the other end)?

This to me would add to the sense of theater to the project. Think of the the way the lift at the Liffey Strorehouse enters the Gravity Bar from within the darkness and on to the roof of the city. I had taken this lift a few times and in every case there was a collective "gasp" from the tourists and they suddenly find themselves above Dublin. The same effect would be achieved by this. Being a Dubliner I would love to see the city from this.

I would life to see a scale model of the towers in relation to the city scape. Frank MacDonald is no moron and he is right behind this. Maybe he knows more about it than we do, and he has see more of the design than the one image of the tower behind the Four Courts.

I must say I am amazed at the ultra conservative reaction to this project. Dublin City centre can hardly be called "historic" in any real sense. Certainly not compared to many other European cities. We are not running this through the centre of some elegant fully in-tact baroque street scape. Has anybody had a look at the Liffey banks? It's hardly Venice or Bruges! Look at it this way, the few historic buildngs such as the Four Courts, Customs House, Christchuch can be viewed from a whole new aspect looking down upon them from a nearby distance.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby phil » Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:02 pm

Cute Panda wrote:
I must say I am amazed at the ultra conservative reaction to this project. Dublin City centre can hardly be called "historic" in any real sense. Certainly not compared to many other European cities. We are not running this through the centre of some elegant fully in-tact baroque street scape. Has anybody had a look at the Liffey banks? It's hardly Venice or Bruges! Look at it this way, the few historic buildngs such as the Four Courts, Customs House, Christchuch can be viewed from a whole new aspect looking down upon them from a nearby distance.


What exactly do you mean by describing Dublin as not being "'historic' in any real sense'? One of the attractions of Dublin for many visitors is its sense of history. that ability to be able to see the remnants of different ages juxtaposed. Visitors can wander through the streets and get a sense of being in an unfolding history as oppossed to what is basically a museum like landscape such as Venice or Bruge.

Cities like Dublin, which have been born of the river, take their essential legibility from them. This is why it is so important that the Liffey is respected. Take the Thames in London for example. The lenght of the river is dotted with various features: Canary Wharf, Tower 42, The Gherkin, St Pauls, Parliament Buildings and the London Eye (to which this cable car claims its inspiration). This is what gives it its legibility. The wanderer in the city, whether tourist or citizen, sees these features and starts to understand how the city is unfolding around them. The Placing a cable car running over the natural axis of a city (any city) would take away the visual impact which it is trying to view in the first place. This is why the London Eye works so well. It is relatively inobstusive, allows the tourist to view the city from a variety of gradually altering perspectives, but yet does not detract from the rythm of the cityscape.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby Cute Panda » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:00 pm

phil wrote:What exactly do you mean by describing Dublin as not being "'historic' in any real sense'? One of the attractions of Dublin for many visitors is its sense of history. that ability to be able to see the remnants of different ages juxtaposed. Visitors can wander through the streets and get a sense of being in an unfolding history as oppossed to what is basically a museum like landscape such as Venice or Bruge.


I have travelled fairly extensively and Dublin to me looks about as historic as Boston. There is little of the city over 200 years old. Most of the city centre starts around 1880's onwards when you really look at it as a whole. Apart from a few churches here and there, Dublin does not feel much more overly historic than a lot of cities in the New World and I am talking Quebec, Savannah, Havana etc. Dublin also has a huge amount of late 20th trash buildings. Claiming Dublin is mainly a visually historic city is a bit like claiming that Irish is a living and vibrant language.

I really do not see how these towers are anymore horrible than much of the 1960's kitch which already lines the Liffey. What precisely would these towers visually ruin which has not already been ruined decades ago?

If we have beautiful historic quays lining the Liffey I could understand the negative reaction these towers are inciting, but I really don't get why so many people are horrified by this project to the level they are - except perhaps the old Oirish fear of anything new and unique. We are hardly an innovative or dynamic culture - we are the boiled cabbage eaters, the conservative clods on the fringes of Europe wagging his finger at anything which manifest from outside the pre-determind box we are all so comfortable locking ourselves into. As Joyce said "the centre of paralysis" and all that.

I am not saying I do not respect people's reasons for being so against the cable car idea, but I am amazed as the explosion of viceral repulsion it has unleashed on this normally well balanced forum. The same hostile reaction to this idea is no different than the residents groups and NIMBYs walking around the construction site of a 5 storey building with "NO SKYSCRAPERS HERE" scrawled on a sheet of cardboard looking and acting hysterical for no reason.

phil wrote:Cities like Dublin, which have been born of the river, take their essential legibility from them. This is why it is so important that the Liffey is respected. Take the Thames in London for example. The lenght of the river is dotted with various features: Canary Wharf, Tower 42, The Gherkin, St Pauls, Parliament Buildings and the London Eye (to which this cable car claims its inspiration). This is what gives it its legibility. The wanderer in the city, whether tourist or citizen, sees these features and starts to understand how the city is unfolding around them. The Placing a cable car running over the natural axis of a city (any city) would take away the visual impact which it is trying to view in the first place. This is why the London Eye works so well. It is relatively inobstusive, allows the tourist to view the city from a variety of gradually altering perspectives, but yet does not detract from the rythm of the cityscape.


I am sorry, but I honestly have no idea what you saying here. I read it a few times and all I am getting is subjective analysis. You're rationale in the above paragraph why this would not work in Dublin borders on a form of civic theology rather than a good argument against the cable car idea. You'll have to do better than that.

Forgive me, I am simple man and I like cable cars and I think it would be neat to take one along the Liffey. I am sure many people would like to do the same. It looks like fun. Sorry, but that is how it is, this idea actually appeals to me, and as a taxpayer won;t cost me a penny and I don't see how the towers along the Liffey are anymore horrible than some of the junk already there.

If the towers are too high, then build taller buildings in Central Dublin rather than retreating in a Georgian Society ostichifaction state based on a shallow argument that the Dublin quays are masterpieces of civic beauty when they are in fact lined with all manner of ugly shite already.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:53 am

Holy crab. I leave town for a week (no newspapers, no internet) and return to this? What's been going on in my absence?

I voted 'No' on count 2, but it could have been any of 1, 2 or 3- the reasons have been outlined above by others. Just to add- wasn't Barry Boland the scheming chancer in 'Bachelors [sic] Walk'?

Monorail Monorail Monorail... indeed.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:24 am

If they want to build this, build it up Howth head or Bray Head, let the tourists admire the coastline.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby Desmund » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:06 pm

"If we have beautiful historic quays lining the Liffey I could understand the negative reaction these towers are inciting, but I really don't get why so many people are horrified by this project to the level they are - except perhaps the old Oirish fear of anything new and unique. We are hardly an innovative or dynamic culture - we are the boiled cabbage eaters, the conservative clods on the fringes of Europe wagging his finger at anything which manifest from outside the pre-determind box we are all so comfortable locking ourselves into. As Joyce said "the centre of paralysis" and all that."


Well said Cute Panda. The quays as far as I am concerned are the ugliest and most inspirationally devoid area of central Dublin. They are drab bland and should be levelled (apart from notable exceptions) to make way for something befitting a capital city and not that of a provential town. As you say it's not as if this proposition is going to architecturally churn through beautiful street scapes. I think somewhere like the quays needs all the help it can get. Debates on this forum on the whole, tend to be caried out with the utmost objectivity generally, but ocasionally when something new and inovative is proposed a great many posters seem to revert back to form and play the "Historic skyline card". There seems to be a strong train of thought predominent in Dublin that if a building predates a certain era then it should be protected at all cost which is ridiculous. And as you say if the surrounding buildings are too low, then build higher ones. In terms of architecture which predates the 20th century -If it's drap knock it down - it's it's not, keep it. Dublin is a city on the similar scale (size) as somewhere like Brussells or Amsterdam and not a "small Irish city" (Somewhere like Cork, Kilkenny or Limerick fit this bill) buildinds and streetscape should reflect it's urban nature. And central Dublin apart from the quays which look provential fit this role. Apart from levelling the quays and building them up which is my ultimate preference, any suggestion which changes the boring nature of what we currently have should be welcomed.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby PVC King » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:44 pm

I totally disagree in relation to the Dublin Quays and would say that between Georges Quay and Merchants Quay with a few notable exceptions that the area has bennefitted from extensive regeneration.

No major decision on the Dublin Quays should be made before the Port Tunnel opens and I very much doubt that even a senile despot like Fiddle Castro would consider such a project for Havana or comparable new World City.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby Desmund » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:56 pm

Thomond Park wrote:I totally disagree in relation to the Dublin Quays and would say that between Georges Quay and Merchants Quay with a few notable exceptions that the area has bennefitted from extensive regeneration.

No major decision on the Dublin Quays should be made before the Port Tunnel opens and I very much doubt that even a senile despot like Fiddle Castro would consider such a project for Havana or comparable new World City.


I should have been more specific. I'm talking about west of O'Connell bridge.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby PVC King » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:01 pm

So am I in the main the area as far as the Four Courts with the exception of one site that has an excellent competition winning design (Gilroy McMahon 1999) there are no gaps and it is a decent tapestry of buildings that in the majority respects and does not detract from its Historical context.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby phil » Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:51 pm

Cute Panda wrote:I have travelled fairly extensively and Dublin to me looks about as historic as Boston. There is little of the city over 200 years old. Most of the city centre starts around 1880's onwards when you really look at it as a whole. Apart from a few churches here and there, Dublin does not feel much more overly historic than a lot of cities in the New World and I am talking Quebec, Savannah, Havana etc. Dublin also has a huge amount of late 20th trash buildings. Claiming Dublin is mainly a visually historic city is a bit like claiming that Irish is a living and vibrant language.


What I am pointing at is how it is not a city that can be labelled as being of one time. Its fabric has been built up and replaced over the years, but still shows traces of its past. I was arguing against your belief that only cities that are of some specific historical time period are somehow more important than others.

Your argument about the Irish language makes no sense to me. If I was to make comparisons between Dublin and a language I would not compare it to one that I felt to be dead. That is the very point I am making, Dublin is a living city, not one that is maintained to give the illusion of some specific time period. I am not disputing the construction of this cable car on the grounds that it will impact on older parts of the city, but that it will have a negative impact on the city as a whole.

I really do not see how these towers are anymore horrible than much of the 1960's kitch which already lines the Liffey. What precisely would these towers visually ruin which has not already been ruined decades ago?


What 1960s kitch are you referring to? For many, it is the 1990s pastiche that is more of a problem.

If we have beautiful historic quays lining the Liffey I could understand the negative reaction these towers are inciting, but I really don't get why so many people are horrified by this project to the level they are - except perhaps the old Oirish fear of anything new and unique. We are hardly an innovative or dynamic culture - we are the boiled cabbage eaters, the conservative clods on the fringes of Europe wagging his finger at anything which manifest from outside the pre-determind box we are all so comfortable locking ourselves into. As Joyce said "the centre of paralysis" and all that.


What, therefore, is the point of putting up a cable car that will overlook the quays if you dont seem to think they are of any visual or historic value in the first place?

I am not saying I do not respect people's reasons for being so against the cable car idea, but I am amazed as the explosion of viceral repulsion it has unleashed on this normally well balanced forum. The same hostile reaction to this idea is no different than the residents groups and NIMBYs walking around the construction site of a 5 storey building with "NO SKYSCRAPERS HERE" scrawled on a sheet of cardboard looking and acting hysterical for no reason.


I genuinly don't think this is NIMBYism. The reason that there is such an explosion against it on this forum is that posters here, who seem to be from all over Ireland and abroad, are thinking of its impact on Dublin as a whole, not simply in terms of their area. That is the difference between this and other projects. It is not an isolated project, it is one that has far reaching consequences for the entire city.

I am sorry, but I honestly have no idea what you saying here. I read it a few times and all I am getting is subjective analysis. You're rationale in the above paragraph why this would not work in Dublin borders on a form of civic theology rather than a good argument against the cable car idea. You'll have to do better than that.


Basically what I am saying is that I dont see why something should dominate an entire cityscape of Dublin that is of no real benefit to the city whatsoever. There is obviously some form of subjective analysis involved as it is based on my opinion, as your views are also.

In terms of doing something with the river, as already stated by Thomond Park, it is all dependent on the opening of the Port Tunnel. At that point a better analysis can be made of exactly what would benefit the river area of the city for both citizens and visitors alike.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby Cute Panda » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:11 pm

phil wrote:Basically what I am saying is that I dont see why something should dominate an entire cityscape of Dublin that is of no real benefit to the city whatsoever. There is obviously some form of subjective analysis involved as it is based on my opinion, as your views are also.


Fair point, but judgeing by the letter about "Suas" in the Irish Times today there is most certainly some bizzare notion out there that this project is a public transport project when it is nothing of the sort. In fact, I am starting to think that many Irish commentators do not even consider Luas to a public transport project and see it as a gimmick for the tourists!

I can agree with some of your points and see were you are coming from but I think there is a real OIRISH mentality when something like this is announced and there is an instant be-littling simply based on the fact that it has not been done before.

I really do think this would serve a purpose. It would be fun for the tourists who want to come to Dublin and do more than get shitfaced in a Temple Bar pub. That would be its purpose. We can't depend on alcholic abuse/publicans to be the entire backbone of the tourist industry in Dublin. Dublin is a terrible city for family vistors and this would be for them.

I welcome the idea, understand were Frank MacDonald is coming from, but I agree this will never be built. Dublin is a "living city" of British high street shops, Celtic jerseys, Leprecaurn hats, drunken stag parties, no public transport, but we have to mantain the integrity of the city's unique culture by not building this cable car...

God forbid!
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby PVC King » Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:23 pm

Cute Panda wrote: I can agree with some of your points and see were you are coming from but I think there is a real OIRISH mentality when something like this is announced and there is an instant be-littling simply based on the fact that it has not been done before.


With respect most of those speaking out against this are the same people who ridicule the ingredients of Oirish culture such Temple Bar pubs; City West Hotel; JR style bungalows; plastic paddies; the molly malone statue
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby GrahamH » Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:12 pm

Cute Panda wrote: there is a real OIRISH mentality when something like this is announced


Indeed this project in itself is a real modern OIRISH concept: vulgar, flashy, built for a quick buck by the private sector, and with little consideration for both its wider and longer term environmental impact.

If it's so beneficial to the city then why isn't the City Council proposing to build it as a nice little earner for itself?
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby aj » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:35 pm

Graham Hickey wrote:Indeed this project in itself is a real modern OIRISH concept: vulgar, flashy, built for a quick buck by the private sector, and with little consideration for both its wider and longer term environmental impact.

If it's so beneficial to the city then why isn't the City Council proposing to build it as a nice little earner for itself?



u hit the nail on the head!...

this is a really stupid idea the way to see a city is to walk around it not pass over the roofs of it.
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Re: Liffey Cable Cars - Pointless Gimmick or....

Postby notjim » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:08 pm

so here is the right location: from the new science museum west of heuston, likely to become a major attraction for families, to phoenix park, already a major attraction for families, with a great view down the liffey on the way.
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