Fair Play to Starbucks

Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Pepsi » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:59 pm

Nice pictures of Starbucks Graham. I just hope those awnings can extend out that bit further otherwise one would get soaked if the weather took a sudden change. It could happen.
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Re: Provincialism

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:00 am

Craig_Purcell wrote:P.S - What is a "Clamper"?

Illegally parked cars are 'clamped' i.e. a sturdy wheel lock is put on one of the wheels preventing the owner from driving away. It costs 80 euros to have it removed.
Clampers are the people who work for the clamping company (a private company with a contract with the City Council).
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All Clampers Aside

Postby Craig_Purcell » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:04 pm

Perhaps it is best just to drill down and place cars below grade and order up the cars like so many bag of chips from the automat.

see attached photo

Large fileds of asphalt at the ratio of 1.6 to 1 for parking lot to building area does seem to be urbanism's biggest problem - all a clampers aside.

1000 sf of retail shops need 5 parking spaces at an average of 325 sf per car (US standards of course)

Restaurants need more parking at 2.6 to 1 and office users less at 1 to 1.

As it takes two incomes to survive most residential units need two parking spaces per unit.

This is of course a recipe for disaster...

Let us hope China does not get rid of their bicycle lanes in favor of more automobile lanes.

Regards,

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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Alek Smart » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:50 pm

A thousand apologies Morlan for the lack of spaces in my output.
The transition from Pen and Ink to Keyboard has not been an easy one and obviously the space bar was lost in space,so to speak.

Point Taken however and memo to myself...

MIND THE GAP !!! :eek:
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby garethace » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:35 pm

1000 sf of retail shops need 5 parking spaces at an average of 325 sf per car (US standards of course)


Can you combine spaces nearby the shop with reserved spaces around the corner, or how in a parking lot somewhere else. How does that work? How far away can the car be parked to maintain that average? I mean, in the US, don't a lot of office workers and apartment dwellers keep their autos parked permanently in a garage, removed from the actual complex?

200 sq. feet per car
325 sq. feet per car
384 sq. feet per car
625 sq. feet per car
1000 sq. feet per car

I understand the logic of this sliding scale to obtain the various ratios. Yeah, 200 sq. feet per car is a lot. I imagine that in Dublin, given the small size of apartment dwellings now, and the wide availability of cars for personal use in denser parts of the city - residential use here in parts of Dublin, seems to equal or exceed that of retail use - in terms of car parking required. That is precisely what has happened in Ranelagh, the place is just stuff with automobiles, you can hardly see the street anymore with all of them. With its small narrow streets with high density terraced house living.

Indeed, Ranelagh looks a bit like that image of the Volkswagen garage in Germany, except done horizontally rather than vertically. I must get some photos to post up here actually, it would be useful.

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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Craig_Purcell » Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:43 pm

In America the rule of thumb for suburbanites (as opposed to urban dwellers) is they will walk 300' to get to the front door of the shopping complex. If they have to walk further they will leave and come back later when it is less crowded. They will walk further during the holiday season.

Paco Underhill's "The Science of Shopping" and "The Call of the Mall" are both excellent resources for understanding the behaviour of the shopper from a cultural anthropolgy point of view.

In the historic cores the parking ratios are less and everyone complains about the lack of parking. Usually some behemoth shopping center(s) is sitting close serving the core business of the community and providing lots of free parking.

Historic Cores tend to go for tourism and have food, beverage, boutique retail and hospitality as their economic base.

Starbucks likes to nest among these places on corners as well as at transit locations.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby garethace » Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:16 pm

Gee, is global culture really that predictable nowadays? It sounds as if you can describe a city such as Dublin from across the Atlantic, better than most people I know here can. The city as designed for automobiles. Wow. So close, to what Dublin is. Thanks to an inflated importance of the traffic engineer, and a lack of architects or other 'spatial designers' being involved in the debate. If there even was a debate. As a general point, and to make debate possible at all - I feel strongly that architects should be encouraged while in school to understand how code affects the environment we live in. Visa versa, I think that people educated in writting code for urban places, should have a basic appreciation how design can somehow make it all fit together. You do need the designer, otherwise it is pointless. There are certain things you cannot 'code' your way around. Otherwise, you are left with gaps, where things should join up. Take the following for instance,

In the historic cores the parking ratios are less and everyone complains about the lack of parking. Usually some behemoth shopping center(s) is sitting close serving the core business of the community and providing lots of free parking.


I think that is why projects like the LUAS, lightrail system here in Dublin have gained such a position of importance in the recent years - to somehow try and redress the imbalance created by the suburban betemoth shopping centre, and make city cores accessbile once more. As if the city core, is a place where all people should want to go. Dublin bus company failed to do anything much, after decades of campaigning, advertising and influence over the operation of the city. Today, Dublin bus has competition in the form of a new younger upstart, the Railway Procurement Ajency or RPA, for short. Which has become a very sexy and powerful institution in its own right, with its own attitude and way of doing things. The unfortunate thing about 'competition' between these too gorillas, is that wherever light rail stations are made, you can associate that with a tendency for Dublin bus to pull out of the area, and leave it all to the light rail. They are afraid of direct confrontation, and have become territorial with each other. Each one sticking to areas, where they can play up their own advantages. This seems the exact opposite to what you want. As pointed out by other posters here on the thread - you do need bus and rail systems interlocking with each one another, in loving, cooperative embraces. Rolling gently about in the dense undergrowth of urbanity, like two mating gorillas, as opposed to territorial competitors. To obtain the most efficient and best overall use from public investment in transportation. In a time of rising inflation, Ireland has a duty to cooperate when and where possible.

It needs to be pointed out, that one function of LUAS and Dublin bus has been allowed to overshadow all others. Over zealous use of PR to wage war on both sides. The apparent 'linking' of shoppers to the various retail centres. This one function, has been 'done to death', especially around the holiday season, for 'publicity' reasons. The over-emphasis on that function, has prevented people from looking much deeper into the possibilities presented by transportation in our city, of allowing the debate to take place. Emphasising one particular 'cool' function of transportation above others. Going to high street at weekends, or this-centre-or-that, to spend your weeks earnings on 'all new shit'. This is really a debasement of the concept of public transportation and the very people who want to use it. It displays a depressing Irish characteristic, of seeing everything from behind the wheel of an automobile. In Dublin city, we are bringing thousands of foreign workers in every year. We thank them for coming here, by giving them a pretty useless transportation system. Sometimes, with a loosy attitude towards service to boot. In Ireland, we are guilty of having blinkers to transportation. The car is for getting to work, while the LUAS or bus is a cool novelty item, for going to parties in the evening or going shopping at weekends. This is an over-simplification of the whole problem, I feel. What is lacking in Ireland now, is an organisation or individual with real insight, into how different modes of transport need to fit together.

Yeah, the Dublin bus company has been around while. In later day, the bus service would have tried to fill a similar role to that of light rail now - trying to link up shoppers with their favourite high street. As a result of that narrow-ness of thinking, we have a series of bus-passges which are designed to carry people from the car-oriented suburb, into the high street. Like any project, transportation being no different - the important thing seems to be getting people to work and think as a team, rather than all pulling in all different ways. What we do have is governments who regularly use transportation to orchestrate large scale PR, on TV, on radio and in print. I began this thread to mention the behaviour of the taxi driving community in Foster Place, trying to establish their iron grip on that territory. I have discussed the personal automobile, the surburban shopping centre, Dublin bus and LUAS light rail system. I think you can agree, that urban transportation resembles a study into a gorilla behaviour in the jungle, the hard-fought battle for survival.

Starbucks likes to nest among these places on corners as well as at transit locations.


I also noticed something with 'record' stores - (gee, I still call them record stores, even though they are really CD stores nowadays) sometimes when in the city centres - the big HMV idea doesn't work at all. I notice where they have stores on the main streets here - selling thousands of CDs and DVDs, the que at the counter is a mile long. Just walk down the road, and drop into a small store and you can usually get what you want, without the que. So it isn't always handy to be big in the music retail game. I mean, if you are even inside the HMV store itself, and are waiting in a que, for ten minutes to get to a counter - that is just not fun to me. And being big, on main street, they are probably losing business as a result. Because they have to staff the place, just the same, on slow days. While on busy days, the existing staff aren't able to cope with the sudden surge in customer volumes. That is why I think online, is probably suited to selling music - because digital network bandwidth is the only thing able to cope with surges and drops in customer demand.

While I am on the topic, of all things global, I might as well mention construction too. Which appears to be going the way of prefabrication and about getting greater economy of scale, with more predictable quality/costs/timescales. The building industry here in Ireland was organised around a lot of separate trades for a long, long time. This makes projects hard to schedule and predict in terms of time and cost. You are seeing a lot of projects, re-designed to avoid, bottlenecks and time overruns. We will probably end up with a different Irish construction industry than before.

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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby garethace » Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:40 pm

Modern music store, looks like this I reckon,... any opinions?

How can the store equivalent of this, even try to compete?

City cores might be great for selling coffee in mugs, but cannot compete with cyberspace, as far as selling music goes.

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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby garethace » Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:19 am

Pics I promised. I would just like to remind people, this corner or space, used always by the taxi drivers, 'never even existed' until lately, as far as most people who inhabit the city were concerned. That is some transformation to make, from nothing to something, just like that. Architects, always talk about leaving the site, 'in better condition' than what they found it in. I think, that has been achieved here, and also the possibility of other things are even suggested, just by this intervention. It probably will not receive an award, since it doesn't come with any poetic description, trying to tell you how philosophic and deep it is - but heh, you can't have everything.

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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Rory W » Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:56 pm

From The Irish Times (21/12/05)

Lad's we're too late :(

Trinity College Dublin has sold two adjoining Georgian office buildings at 5 and 6 Foster Palce in Dublin 2 for around €3 million. The college owns a considerable number of adjoining properties. Ganly Walters handled the sale. The buildings are understood to have been bought by a Dublin property developer. The two buildings were sold exactly 10 years ago for just under €700,000.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby PVC King » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:03 pm

They sounded cheap unless they are falling down;

They would make some town houses for those with an ego matched by a fat back pocket. I hope DCC see this potential in thier deliberations
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Andrew Duffy » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:24 pm

I don't think there are many with multiple millions to spend on a house that would buy one with no security, no front garden, a taxi rank outside the door, constant traffic and a stream of drunks and vomit outside every night of the week.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby PVC King » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:53 pm

You are right there aren't many who would buy such a property but you only need two.

In relation to the drawbacks you raise


1> Security; not an issue given that they are landlocked to the rear and directly face the side of the BOI

2> No front Garden; many properties with no front garden trade for large sums; and given the setting outside the front door one doesn't really need one should point 3 be addressed

3> Taxis; I agree this is a real issue not just for these properties but also for the streetscape as a whole; as was floated in multiple threads the College Green Taxi rank is dysfunctional and is just too small not to mention being relatively inaccessible being marrooned on a traffic Island.

4> Constant traffic largely linked to the above excluding the odd cash truck going to the BOI and would be entirely relieved by moving the taxi rank to say the side of the Central Bank on Fownes St and winding it around thew block with a que on three sides of the bank including Anglesea St

5> I'm not sure about this as the route is a cul de sac it doesn't really attract anyone en route to anywhere; my own belief is when someone is drunk enough to vomit they will do it anywhere regardless of the size of the street or the number of other people.

Thanks for pics Brian it appears Starbucks did a very tasteful job
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby garethace » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:23 am

Thanks for pics Brian it appears Starbucks did a very tasteful job


Not really, the main reason I posted up the thread at all, was to make a very straightforward point.

This simple insertion of a cafe use into an existing structure highlights a lot of limitations in the way Architects approach their work. Unless the building is a 'design jewel' then it is not considered worthy of the awards process. That warps how architects view the world. This particular process of indoctrination begins in the architectural school and cripples potential. In the workplace, architects are consumed for a large part of their time, trying to make buildings with a bad concept, look 'beautiful'. It is crucial to realise the built environment is made up of different stock. The most pleasing mix results from having 'okay' design from different eras, in close proximity to one another. My favourite places are places where you see buildings done at different periods - rather than all of the same pedigree. That is the trouble with a lot of 'new areas' now in Dublin. They look cool for 12 months and then you get jaded with them.

The architectural awards remind me of the way dogs are judged in a dog show by their pedigree. The architects remind me of people who comb the dogs and feed them special meals and vitamins to make their skins shine. The dog has to peak for the dog-show, and after that will probably go into a decline and be forgotten about. It gives the attitude like, 'stone cladding is so last year. Its all about timber now.' A mongrel such as Starbucks cafe doesn't qualify for the competition. It's coat will probably never shine brightly enough to be considered for Krups. I think their should be a 'mongrel' architectural awards process to complement the pedigree architectural awards. In the real world, not every job can attain 'best-of-breed' status. That is a huge element of denial that has managed to built itself right into the core of what motivates a lot of good architects: to get mentioned in the awards ceremony. Unfortunately, it goes right as far back as the educational process opted for in the schools, where one student in particular is appointed as 'the chosen one'. There really badly needs to be a counter-revolution to all of this imbalance, which the AAI organisation managed itself to exascerbate. It was undertaken with the best of intentions certainly, but it has back-fired.


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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Rory W » Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:54 pm

garethace wrote:A mongrel such as Starbucks cafe doesn't qualify for the competition. It's coat will probably never shine brightly enough to be considered for Krups.


I'm assuming Crufts since Krups make blenders and food processors (unless you're making a real dig at these architects!!)
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby garethace » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:00 am

Yeah, thanks for that correction Rory. One of the useful aspects of the distributed forum format in my mind, is its ability to quickly snuff out those little errors. Thanks.

Even though times are good, I am concerned about the kind of business model employed by young architects. The 'boutique' firm can specialise in doing cool insertions into the built environment. I like jewel structures as much as the next guy. I have my doubts about building jewels, as a good business model for the profession of architecture. Architects are delighted when their buildings are published in magazines, in all their shimering photographic glory. But the jewel, is an over-specialisation on the part of architects. They have put themselves in a vulnerable position. Who are the first people always hit by the recession? You've guessed it, the Architects. Between the building boom periods the architectural profession suffers because of over-specialisation. Boutique firms hit the wall, and have no alternative skillset to support them. Since most of the architectural profession is organised squarely around the boutique, it is unstable at best and often volatile. The university professor's seat is the only refuge for many in the lean periods. When the boom re-appears architects waste most of their valuable time re-building up to strength. That is a costly process and normally involves the importation of talent from abroad.

You see a plethora of small architectural 'boutiques' now appearing on the scene. They can rent the same kind of business premise you would find an internet cafe housed in. Normally some street tucked away, off of the high street. These youngsters are undoubtedly keen to try and harvest some of the wealth available. But the boutique has not got the size or the sophistication to mine the wealth and opportunities in the building industry effectively. Architects fall back upon the design 'jewel structure' and make a statement about 'purity, light and form', usually in some glossy magazine double-page spread. The Jewel provides a very necessary escape clause from reality. The jewel of sufficient pedigree, like the Glucksman Art Gallery, stands for everything that mainstream building design doesn't. The whole negative psychology of the 'jewel building' is interwoven into the fabric of the architectural profession. The royal institute and the architectural awards process underpins it. You cannot expect payment in real money, except for loose change to buy a Porsche. You are paid in terms of 'fellow-peer-recognition' instead.

The local authorities have the size of money-hoover required to suck up the payments for services and consultancy. Local authorities seem to extract money out of every nook and cranny. Finding opportunities for gain, where architects could only dream. If architecture is to become a serious contender in the game, you need the right kind of management. In short, you need more business brain power. In parts of the world, the building contractor is sophisticated enough to become the designer and complete a whole project. I believe architects should become involved in the mogrel work out there and move into the local authorities space. Really wrestle for it. It could afford architecture a more sustainable business model than building 'jewels'. You need to grow and build your strength over the lean years aswell. The local authority has a killer business model compared with architecture. The local authority grew and expanded in size and sophistication throughout the 1980s and 1990s. Now they have the design teams, the expertise, suitably large offices and a virtual monopoly.


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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby garethace » Tue May 23, 2006 9:31 pm

This project by Pheripherique Architects in France exemplifies for me, the sometimes aggressive urban intervention one has to make, in order to re-interpret an urban space. I don't know, maybe a Star bucks for the summertime, on squeeshy pink styrofoam furniture - you never know. Beat the dead atmosphere of Cows Lane etc, etc, any day, if one could find a suitable location. But lets face it, there are tonnes of spaces in this city and others crying out for some kind of deliberate use, even if only temporary.

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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby StephenC » Wed May 24, 2006 11:37 am

But does this space get used now that the pink furniture is in place. Its interesting but does it make a blind bit of difference. The qualities that make a space work...and encourage people to use it can be allusive
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Devin » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:02 am

Image

This thread started off well, but went a bit off in the last page or so ...... would be good to get back to the crucial city-centre issue of the splendid but wasting asset of Foster Place.

In the end the Starbucks effect pondered at the start of the thread was fairly negligible and Foster Place pretty much continued on in a horrible state of wastefulness – dominated by taxis, fairly lifeless and prone to anti-social behaviour.

As mentioned earlier, the 2004 Temple Bar Framework Plan resurrected the idea of opening it through to the streets behind, and it would be a good idea to get some life and movement through it because at the moment its main use - apart from taxis and parked cars - is a homeless shelter and a public toilet. The underneath of the House of Commons portico stinks of piss …. in fact the whole place does.

If you can ignore the stench for a minute it's nice to stand at the end and admire the architecture …. that is until the peace is shattered by a taxi accelerating up to the end, turning around and going off again.




Image Image

And its fabric has suffered at the hands of Dublin City Council. (As previously featured in the paving thread: ) Superb quality coursing and bonding to the antique stone paving (left), then suddenly - Bleurrgh! – everything is cut up , bastardised and smeared with cement at the triumphal-arch entrance to the former BoI arts centre (right).




Image Image

DCC's Roads Maintenance Dept.'s practice of cement strap pointing looks even more ridiculous on these great circular granite tree protectors than it does on paving (left). Don't ask what all the cement built up around the bottom is for - it looks graceful anyway! One of the golden granite tree protectors has been replaced in a thin nasty white reconstituted granite version (right).

Yeah, Foster Place provides a nice quiet environment for them to get stuck into the historic street furniture; a few weeks damage and destruction at the expense of the taxpayer, and no pesky passers-by to see and report their shocking work.



Is the rumour true that Trinity College now own all the buildings on the west side? What are they doing with them? They haven't brought any life to the place - aside from leasing the corner building to Starbucks. Would it not be better for different property owners to have an interest here?

Foster Place screams 'I NEED A PLAN!', because at the moment it's going nowhere.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:46 pm

as far as i know, Trinity owns all of the west side of Foster Place
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby PVC King » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:54 pm

Except the two townhouses near the end which were sold as an investment a year or two back by Savills I think.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby notjim » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:12 pm

Even beyond the rule that universities should never sell property and should never ever sell contiguous property, TCD was insane to sell 5 and 6 Forster place. Given they have the AIB building they could have done something special here.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby notjim » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:14 pm

Sorry reading more of the thread, to answer the question above TCD owns the AIB building, they used to own 5 and 6 as well, the two to the north of the AIB, but sold them last year. It also owns most of the second and third story of that block going west, they don't own the ground floors, they did some sort of swop.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Morlan » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:50 pm

Image

:eek: That's a fucking disgrace. How do they get away with it?
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby GrahamH » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:30 am

12/9/2008

Just rooting around Foster Place yesterday evening, it occured to me what a magnificent hotel the former Royal Bank would make.

Image
(Archiseek)

Very much in the European tradition, it is of the perfect grand townhouse proportion, with ranks of gracious classical windows overlooking the leafy confines of Foster Place and the extravagant Coomons portico opposite. The banking hall which is conveniently off-centre would make for a spectacular lobby-cum-lounge, restaurant or bar, while the first floor appears to host some fine rooms with elaborate cornicing. It's so easy to envisage the frontage newly restored, with potted plants, flags and window boxes and all the other manicured paraphernalia that comes with such premises. Such a low-medium intensity use would act as a welcome presence on the street and generate modest activity appropriate to the context.

What plans do Trinity have for this bank, if any, now the nursing school has settled elsewhere? I don't see how this building could be sensitively converted for educational purposes - even if possible it's hardly the most appropriate use.

It's quite a substantial building, especially if the adjoining Francis Johnston townhouses were amalgamated into the premises (currently separately owned).

Image


There's also potential for frontage onto Anglesea Street.

Image


Incidentally the townhouses feature a quirky detail with their doorcases, seemingly unique in the city, whereby the interior hall is narrower than the doorcase suggests, resulting in a 'false' fanlight :)

Image

Alas the right-hand house has spilled the beans by painting their overhang white.
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