Fair Play to Starbucks

Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby GrahamH » Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:38 am

lol - wouldn't be surprise me though as it seems to be rather hot and steamy in there at the minute, completely jammers the three occasions I've passed at different times of the past two days. No one seems to want to go outside - suppose it is November...

It's not as anything spectacular has been done here now - think this thread is getting everyone's hopes up :)
They have only chucked a couple of tables and chairs out onto a concrete pavement after all:

Image

Image

Image


Should be a delight to sit here during the summer in the dappled sun piercing through the plane trees, though you'd have to ask, why doesn't the City Council install public seating here instead for the public to enjoy Foster Place, rather than preserve the area for the exclusive benefit of the customers of a retail outlet? If people want to bring their coffee out onto these seats then so be it?

The real, secret reason :) everyone likes Foster Place is because it feels like London, not Dublin. The architecture is very much so that of London, as is the intimate historic atmosphere that is very rare in Dublin today; suppose the Castle Upper Yard would be one of the few other areas that still has this.
Imagine living in one of the two townhouses here - surely the most desirable residences in Dublin?!

Image

Both of them were up for sale a few weeks ago.

The only problem with 'developing' or 'expoiting this underutilised area' is that this will spoil the very essence of the place - it is perfect as it is: quiet, secluded and largely unknown. Though the way Bank of Ireland dominate the space as if they own it with security cameras and delivery trucks needs to change alright. You always feel you shouldn't be there, and are being watched...
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Morlan » Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:56 am

asdasd wrote:I drank outside on Fosters place yesterday. .


How did you find the level of traffic? And those taxis, were they not a little annoying?
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby asdasd » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:03 am

The taxis are a bit annoying, but not overwhelmingly so. The place to sit is where the girl in the read coat is sitting. Away from Dame street traffic.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Morlan » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:10 am

Ah, some pics!

It's been a while since I was down Foster. I had it in my head the the Starbucks building was a quality corner structure.

Now, the lower facade isn't to bad. If only they'd used the same render on the upper floors, I think it would look much better.

Not to dis your photos, Graham, but the place looks pretty cold and miserable, which it is.

I'm going to take a trip down there myself tomorrow to see what the story is, shall return with pics.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby GrahamH » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:21 am

Well it's going to be

shagging cold


and miserable tomorrow too, so it ain't gonna look much better :)

Always liked the corner building there, strangly decent and sympathetic to the BoI for what seems to be a 70s? building.

Though compared with what used to be there - sob :(

Image
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Morlan » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:26 am

Absolutely criminal. Lost in the 70s for whatever pathetic reason. :mad: ARGHH
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:57 pm

Morlan wrote:Now, the lower facade isn't to bad. If only they'd used the same render on the upper floors, I think it would look much better.

The 'render' on the ground floor is in fact stone, the same stone as was used in the BoI and channelled in the same manner.
Agreed though that as a 70s 'infill' it's one of the best in the city.

I never knew that the pair in the corner was for sale recently. (Not that I'd have been in a position... :( ) It's been an ambition to call one of them home for a long time now. I wonder do they need a caretaker...?
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Rory W » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:41 pm

I don't think Foster Place should be linked into Temple Bar whatsoever - it's a charming little street, why spoil it by linking it into our "British Stag Night containment unit". Trtust me the malignancy of chain restaurants and theme bars would soon creep in.

The old AIB would make a fantastic high end restaurant, but it wouldn't take off if it was tarred with the Temple Bar brush
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Devin » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:55 am

Another plus for Foster's Place as a public space is that it has a genuine historic stone sett surface (you can partly see it there in one of Graham's photos) - the setts are tightly laid and comfortable to walk on, like you would find for example in a French city - whereas the sett surfaces in Temple Bar, which mostly date from the early '90s, are not well laid and not very comfortable to walk on.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby GrahamH » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:01 am

Indeed - a fine solid surface that adds such charm to the place:

Image

The granite kerbs around the bases of the trees are a nice touch.

Wonder if the tunnel to Daly's Club still runs underneath...
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Devin » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:26 am

Yes, that's nice. You can really see the quality there. It's a gorgeous surface! The few genuine sett surfaces that survive around the city need to be jealously guarded!

Temple Bar is a sham! Here is a typical FOUL stone sett surface in Temple Bar:

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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Richards » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:13 pm

Can any ulity company dig up Foster Place or does the laid surface have some kind of protection?

I often see road works in Temple Bar but as the coblestones were so badly laid, often the contractor conducting the works does a better job in reinstating them. However the situation in Foster Place is completly different that Temple Bar.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Alek Smart » Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:39 pm

Hey..!!! Where am I ......!
Before anybody starts trying to prod DCC into action regarding Foster and Allen Place How about the Members of this Forum,well...the CONCERNED one`s at any rate,meeting up at Starbuck`s tooled up with Stanley Knives or Sharp Scissors.
The reason for the Tools.......?
After a suitably convened Emergency General Meeting the group would divide Commando Stylle (Draughty I know!) and set about Removing the Large Signs which remain tied to Lamp Standards and Poles throughout the City.
These warn of O Connell St Being CLOSED between 1630 and 1900 or somesuch on SUNDAY the Twenty FECKIN Seventh of NOVEMBER !!!!
Now anybody who was in Town on that day will probably want all memories of it repressed but some effort needs to be made to Get the City back on track.
The Official DCC line,I fear,is to leave the Signs up (Facing AWAY from traffic) until the Gregorian Calendar once again aligns with Sunday being the 27th of November and the Chrisamas Lights needin to be lit an all.......!
So c`mon who will be first up to the ockey on this one........Owen Keegan and John Fitzgerald are reputed to have made a block booking for the Starbucks Al Fresco Tables so don`t get left behind boys n girls..!!!!! Snip Snip :eek:
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Morlan » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:21 pm

Maybe we could replace those sodium bulbs on O'C Bridge lamps too :mad:
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Alek Smart » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:41 pm

Great Idea.....More Bang for your buck....so to speak ?
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Paul Clerkin » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:08 pm

Loved Foster Place

That AIB which I think Trinity want to turn into an office for students to deal with the college, was my bank branch. Always picked my banks on grounds of architectural impression, and loved going down there to deposit chequees.

I would like one of these please.too cstephion....
http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/southcity/college_green/foster_place/houses_lge.html
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby ctesiphon » Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:28 pm

Paul Clerkin wrote:I would like one of these please.too cstephion....

If I get lucky on the Lotto I'll be opening one of them up as a B&B, with one room reserved for free stays for archiseek members.:)

Devin et al-
Agreed about the setts. Though not visible in any of the pics above, there are some lovely details such as the way the setts frame the utility hatches in the ground. The metal covers aren't just randomly rammed in; the setts are arranged in very decorative ways. an attention to detail rarely seen in the city any more.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby GrahamH » Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:07 am

Yes, was looking at these drains etc - do they therefore suggest the cobbles are not in their original state given these had to be installed?

I hate those institutional florescent tubes underneath the porch of the AIB. Horrible things.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Devin » Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:45 am

It depends what 'original' means - it does seem that cobbles/setts have to have been in place for a considerable period of time to get that smooth look where they look like they are almost knitted together. There are actually a few patches on Foster Place (one outside Starbucks) which have been lifted and re-laid, and have that lumpy bumpy Temple Bar-sett look :( .
Those nicely laid areas around the drains were probably done a few decades ago at least.

Richards,
in my experience of the protection measures for Dublin's historic street and paving materials, there wouldn't be any conservation consultation process for utilities companies or anyone else requiring to dig up the street, even though Foster Place's setts are listed for protection in the Development Plan. The street has probably just survived in a good state because there are few services running under it (because it's just a short cul de sac).
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby garethace » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:39 pm

Howley Harrington's revised Temple Bar plan included mention of Foster Place. As far as I remember, there was talk of opening it up to plug into the rest of TB, but just how this would be achieved is unclear to me. All of the buildings are of merit and part of the charm of FP is its enclosed nature- I'd be cautious about any measure that diluted this characteristic.


Interesting observations there indeed, ...plugging into Temple Bar, now there is a thought indeed. Long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away before the abomination of private greed that turned out to be Temple Bar, people imagined Temple Bar would be this pristine and other-worldly location, where people would not behave like people, but like some breed of cosmopolitan, urban-aware, sophisticated social animal. The truth turned out to be very different, and now we are all wiser, and understand what 'plugging into Temple Bar' would actually entail. I mean look at Grafton Street, black with people all day long. A real pity how Grafton Street was raped with people. If you were to link Foster's Place with Temple Bar, no doubt, Foster's Place would be raped too.

This little gem of a street should not be connected to TB. The fact it's a cul de sac is part of its charm.


Similarly, well said. We should try to mention here, the behaviour around the Central Bank, and its use as some kind of teenage hang-out area. Usually, I associate that behaviour with a teenage pop concert or rock festival. But in front of the Central Bank, it appears you can have the same behaviour without any concert at all. Maybe we should think about teenagers, and their need to gather and be in one big open air space, in the way we design and build new parts of the city. It seems at a certain age, these young just need to get together and interact a whole pile, in ways, that cannot be accomodated through the use of nightclub, and other quite large interior spaces.

No doubt at all, if Fosters Place became a linking space, it would become 'owned' by some other tribe or sub-culture. It would be like exchanging the taxi-drivers for some other monopoly of use. I cannot understand it, but the behaviour of teenagers screaming and shouting in front of Central Bank has escalated a lot since the hoarings went up around there. It is quite an interesting study in adolescent human behaviour. It wasn't as bad when the skateboarders owned that space. I suspect strongly too, that the teenagers from the old O'Connell Street, have adopted Dame Street, in front of Central Bank, as their new abode.

The Wesrmoreland St/College Green redevelopment will be very interesting. I really hope Luas line A is chosen and private motor vehicles are excorcised from this axis, along with O'Connell St/Bridge. The whole area would make a magnificent pedestrian plaza with Foster Place being a little shaded haen in the summer and a cosy enclosed space in winter, imagine those trees outside the ex AIB building as a bar/restaurant all decorated in twinkly xmas lights, lovely.


I am all for keeping car access to Foster's place. They manage to do it in many of the best European cities. But there seems to be something about 'how' the taxi driving occupation evolved in Dublin city, and similarly the bus transportation system evolved, that seems to be about dragging places down. Making them into the lowest common denominator - for some strange reason, people who drive vehicles around our cities seem to have pure contempt for their urban environment. You can see this similarly in suburban villages and areas, where if there is a video store or laundrette alongside a road, it is free-for-all for anyone in a mini-van with two kids to use the footpath as a parking lot. I understand the climate is bad, peoples' lives are hectic and keeping kids in your sight is paramount. But something tells me there is more to peoples behaviour and lack of respect for urban places, when they are sitting behind the wheel of a n automobile.

You can already see the pressure that Habitat is having on the pavement outside as more people fight for a limited space. And plans are afoot to open a second store in the EBS premises beside Habitat.


The very worst these days, for my money, is the bottom of Grafton Street pedestrian route, with a busy bus route intersecting right over it going up to Suffolk Street. Using places like Dame Street and Suffolk Street, as bus stops, in the way we do, is not working very well. Just to complicate matters then,... and most of this was true of O'Connell Street in the bad old days,... was the taxi ranks getting 'stuck' in there aswell. In case, traffic plus pedestrians wasn't hard enough to do,... you throw in bus stops and taxi ranks, and you really do have the chaos and mess that is, and has always been my experience of Dublin city center. I mean, at the bottom of Grafton Street, Fosters place, the middle of College Green and O'Connell Street in the olden days, were all taxi and bus parks, nothing else really. This is what you get when you form your whole 'thinking' around the internal combustion engine. If all you have is a hammer, then every problem becomes a nail.

I don't think Foster Place should be linked into Temple Bar whatsoever - it's a charming little street, why spoil it by linking it into our "British Stag Night containment unit". Trtust me the malignancy of chain restaurants and theme bars would soon creep in. The old AIB would make a fantastic high end restaurant, but it wouldn't take off if it was tarred with the Temple Bar brush


All very true, sad, but true. As I mention above, when we were all looking at the Temple Bar concept, when it was still just a concept in the mid 1990s, we were all still very, very naive. We considered that in Temple Bar, people would somehow behave better than you normally expect them to. That has not proven the case, and a lot of very trendy architects, who won awards in Temple Bar for their design - protested afterwards, about the facts, of how badly people can behave! As if people should behave better, just to preserve the dignity of the lovely 'designed' environment they are in. What I mean, is that in the early days of the Temple Bar framework stage, everyone looked at Temple Bar as some benign, inner urban development, which did not need any containment. People were suddenly, going to become so well behaved, they would naturally 'respect' their environment and surroundings. And all the Architects could build more Temple Bar areas, and win themselves more awards from the AAI.

I was watching the movie 'Doom' last night, and found it funny, to notice the same issue there. The containment of creatures, with 24 chromosomes, who tried to break out of containment on Mars and come down to Earth via a space travelling machine. It would be a shame, if the 24 chromosome creatures in Temple Bar were to break through into Foster's Place and infect everyone else with the same genetic mods. Nice point about the stone setts too btw. I will tell you, I give this one to the planning brains here. I didn't see the potential destruction of Foster's place, via linking it to Temple Bar etc, etc. I think the sensibilities of a planner, here, have proven to be more effective than those of an architect. In Temple Bar, the sensibilities of architects alone, were proven insufficient. This is a good place to mention, that Temple Bar, as an artistic and cultural quarter, (I know, don't laugh) was an idea that came from cities like Paris in the 1980s. That 'concept' was championed by Charles Haughey, then Taoiseach.

Brian O' Hanlon.
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Alek Smart » Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting Garethace...
I am all for keeping car access to Foster's place. They manage to do it in many of the best European cities. But there seems to be something about 'how' the taxi driving occupation evolved in Dublin city, and similarly the bus transportation system evolved, that seems to be about dragging places down. Making them into the lowest common denominator - for some strange reason, people who drive vehicles around our cities seem to have pure contempt for their urban environment. You can see this similarly in suburban villages and areas, where if there is a video store or laundrette alongside a road, it is free-for-all for anyone in a mini-van with two kids to use the footpath as a parking lot. I understand the climate is bad, peoples' lives are hectic and keeping kids in your sight is paramount. But something tells me there is more to peoples behaviour and lack of respect for urban places, when they are sitting behind the wheel of a n automobile.
Perhaps the best example of this is now to be found in the village of Ranelagh.
Raneleagh is to me the epitomy of what a Dublin "Village" should be all about.
Prior to the return of Rail Travel to the village it had managed to retain it`s Butcher,Baker,Candlestickmaker essence to which could be added Mororcycle Shop,Homebrewery,Landromat and resident Justice Minister :rolleyes:
While the village had always in modernity struggled with its geographical position vis a vis the Motor car,it had nonetheless kept a vestige of a true Village athmosphere.
The arrival of Luas brought with it a reinvigoration and an expansion of ranelagh`s potential to become a really impressive Human Centred working Dublin Village.
However to progress that would have required some Interested and Focused input from the various bodies which form our Local and National Governing Elite.
The lack of any cohesive welcoming plan for Luas has instead turned Ranelagh into something like a Paradise Lost .
Here we have a cohesive social Village Structure complete with a strong resedential culture encompassing a huge social mix from Unemployed Local Authority tenants through transient provincials and multi-cultural non-nationals allthe way up to Ministers of an tOireachtas and ex Professional Footballers turned Radio Personalities.
With the opening of the Luas Green line This huge broadband of Modern Dublin Society now had all of the ingredients for a really attractive model of Modern Urban Living FREE of the OPPRESSIVE REQUIREMENT TO BE CAR FOCUSED AT ALL TIMES.
Well....thats what was so nearly within our grasp......and our Professional Planners threw it to the winds as they abjectly failed to take the new Ranelagh and Integrate it with its new Luas delivered salvation.
The Village now had two LRT stations and Four Bus routes including the radial 18 route ALL of which should have been the focus,in Transport Terms,for mass movement into and out of the Village,with the private car being relegated to a much reduced role WITHIN the area from Charemont St Bridge to Marlborough Road on the East/West axis and Leeson Park to Mountpleasant Ave on the North/South axis.
The area enclosed by that boundary,essentially the village would have benefited greatly from the halving of on-street car parking combined with the widening of the Kerbs in the Village itself and us of the former "Triangle" ( Now sitting there unused and mute testimony to a City Administration unable to deal with heaven sent micro opportunities,but full of desires for Multi-Billion madcap schemes).
Presently a Bus Journey through Ranelagh is almost Biblical in essence as one attempts to thread ones camel through a needle whose eye is virtually blocked with cars,vans,trucks all abandoned on or close to every inch of vacant kerbspace.
Instead of TRYING to move forward with a new and eminently achievable Public Transport centred vision what we have is Bus Atha Cliath REDUCING one of its main trunk routes the 48A and now looking at ways and means of rationalizing the other main through route the 11.
Part of the rationale behind this it is thought comes from a Luas inspired downturn in Passenger Numbers,however I precieve that downturn as being more due to the lack of any structured Bus Priority measures along the South Side of the 11 route and even less on the poor old 18.
This lack of infrastructural support has led to journey times which are completely unsustainable by any rational minded customer,most of whom go off and buy a moped,bicycle or car...immediately adding to the misery of the Real Ranelagh.
As I read of Ministers Cullen and Calelley and their grand visions for the spending of €34 BILLION on magnificent underground Railway Stations worthy of the Imperial Tsar,yet see the same pair sitting on so much unfinished business within their own office administrations then I become afraid...really afraid of just what these lads are going to conjure up for us,especially as an Election is in the offing (Probably the very worst scenario to be Planning anything in socio-architectural terms).
If the Ministers were to allocate me a budget of €1.5 Million I believe I could devise and impliment some small-scale trafic and Public Transport centred measures which would reduce the Number 11 south side journey time by approximately 5 mins per bus journey at peak and perhaps more off peak allowing for an increased frequency throughout the day and into the night (A Must for a truly useable Village scenario)
Mind you my plan would greatly inconvience those who "Stick her up on the kerb" and nip in for a Paper-Single-Kebab-Pizza etc BUT we have to Make some choices here if the Village ethos is to be meaningfully retained and expanded....
As Capn Picard might say....Make it So...!!!!! :)
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby Morlan » Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:17 am

[nazi]

Mr. Smart. Would it be possible for you to put spaces between your paragraphs? I find it very difficult to read.

Sorry for the gripe. I really want to read your comments but I find it a pain to do so. It’s not just that post, but a few of your previous posts too.

[/nazi]
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Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby garethace » Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:23 pm

The Village now had two LRT stations and Four Bus routes including the radial 18 route ALL of which should have been the focus,in Transport Terms,for mass movement into and out of the Village,with the private car being relegated to a much reduced role WITHIN the area from Charemont St Bridge to Marlborough Road on the East/West axis and Leeson Park to Mountpleasant Ave on the North/South axis.

The area enclosed by that boundary,essentially the village would have benefited greatly from the halving of on-street car parking combined with the widening of the Kerbs in the Village itself and us of the former "Triangle" ( Now sitting there unused and mute testimony to a City Administration unable to deal with heaven sent micro opportunities,but full of desires for Multi-Billion madcap schemes).


I am glad to hear someone at last, has managed to highlight the current state of Ranelagh village. Our apparent lack of capability as a nation to make anything out of these places. Ranelagh is something of a 'clampers' paradise. Clampers have taken to Ranelagh, in much the same way the taxi drivers invaded the urban space that was Fosters Place. The clampers strike me as 'chicken and egg' kind of guys. Becasue if people behaved and didn't park illegally, then the clampers would be out of business. It is in the clamper's best interest, to punish people in the short term, but have NO INCENTIVE to educate car users to behave better in the longer term, and to respect the urban environment. As far as the clampers are concerned, people parking badly, are heaven sent. Because the badly behaved car user in Dublin is their only source of revenue. 80 Euro for every offense, it is good work if you can get it.

This is what worries me a lot about separate private and public bodies being set up, to deal with every aspect of the environment and its management. It seems we have 'outsourced' the job of caring for the environment in so many different ways - to so many different bodies and interests. You have a separate body set up now, just to deal with Road Safety, which has been granted all kinds of powers. Developers building in the city centre will tell you, 5-6 million Euro flows directly out of their site and into the pockets of Dublin city council. Just to pay for different fees, taxes, studies and reports. It has been allowed to get so bad, that developers are skeptical now about the profit margins remaining for development on city centre sites. I am disappointed and disheartened, to say the least, that Ranelagh village has become a clampers paradise - when it had the potential to become a transportation hub and centre, for the whole city. Our vision for how we develop our environment, is simply too small.

As you have outlined in your post above - we seem good at taking those nasty 'police' kind of negative opportunities, but we fail to see the more positive opportunities. The nasty police kind of option requires us to set up some public service body, or outsource to some private company - and then the problem - is effectively taken out of our laps, it becomes someone elses. Pass the buck - that is what the Irish seem to be great at doing - as long as it doesn't land in your lap, then you have done very well. Sometimes we see the opportunity in front of us, but we don't want to take the initiative. This is why I mention the 'developer's dilemma' - that of seeing a lot opportunites in Dublin to develop in a positive way, but knowing also, the fees and taxes the state will manage to extract from the site and the development. This is what gives an Irish developer, an incentive to by-pass Dublin altogether and go to Turkey or Beiruit or the middle of Africa!

Instead of TRYING to move forward with a new and eminently achievable Public Transport centred vision what we have is Bus Atha Cliath REDUCING one of its main trunk routes the 48A and now looking at ways and means of rationalizing the other main through route the 11. Part of the rationale behind this it is thought comes from a Luas inspired downturn in Passenger Numbers,however I precieve that downturn as being more due to the lack of any structured Bus Priority measures along the South Side of the 11 route and even less on the poor old 18.


I know from personal experience, if you are standing in Ranelagh at 8.30 on a weekend morning and trying to get anywhere on time, you can just forget it if you are waiting for a bus. Might as well phone work and say, I might make it by 10.30 - save a bun for me at the 11am coffee break.

This lack of infrastructural support has led to journey times which are completely unsustainable by any rational minded customer,most of whom go off and buy a moped,bicycle or car...immediately adding to the misery of the Real Ranelagh.


I agree, Ranelagh village's situation is disgraceful - it is being allowed to slide downhill gradually. Blaming it on LUAS, is a convenient excuse used by transport departments not to look at the matter properly. The idea of passing the buck again, someone elses responsibility. There is an attitude that Ranelagh is only for a few tired and lazy students who leave their cosy beds at a quarter to nine and catch an 11B out to Belfield. If you go a 10 minute walk down the road to Donnybrook, the whole thing works because you have the width of street needed to accomodate a busy through bus service. It is interesting actually to compare the two.

You can find something I observed here, Belfield Campus and Bus Service, about Belfield campus and the way in which bus routes have been organised to use Belfield as an unofficial bus depot. Because Belfield is just so large, as the quays along the Liffey are, or O'Connell St and West Moreland Street avenue is - you simply do not appreciate how MANY buses remain parked all day long in those places. Dublin Bus have always had a talent for spotting large open spaces all over the city, and using them as bus parks. Which really leads you to wonder, what are all of those people man-ing those vehicles actually being paid to do? ? ?

But getting back to Ranelagh, one final observation I would like to make, is how coffee shops there in the morning do quite a good trade on 'coffee-to-go'. I mean, you can place a car on a footpath there for 5, while you nip into a coffee shop and get your take-away. I do think planners should be aware of it. That coffee shops who target sites at corners and junctions, on busy routes, are really going to affect peoples' behaviour in cars, so that people will park the car temporarily on footpaths etc - normally new Porsches - and use the coffee shop like a drive-through. This surely is the opposite to the way Ranelagh should be trying to go. Everyone I know says, they 'like Ranelagh village', but if they really did like Ranelagh village that much, they would see it has its problems and would be interested in trying to look more closely at the problems.

If the Ministers were to allocate me a budget of €1.5 Million I believe I could devise and impliment some small-scale trafic and Public Transport centred measures which would reduce the Number 11 south side journey time by approximately 5 mins per bus journey at peak and perhaps more off peak allowing for an increased frequency throughout the day and into the night (A Must for a truly useable Village scenario)


Not to mention the trouble with 11 buses getting through Drumcondra and city centre in the mornings. If you look at the 11B service from Grafton Street to Belfield, it is never affected as badly. The trouble for me, with the 11B service, is that is stops in Belfield and doesn't continue going out further. This is my point really about Belfield and bus transport - when you have this large city campus the bus routes either side of it - decide to use the campus as a bus park. It is a nice and large, quiet place where you can hide many buses and have a good old snooze for yourself. If you stand at the East entrance to Belfield in the mornings you can count one bus every 10 seconds or so, turning straight into Belfield and parking there. If that isn't a cozy option I don't know what.

We don't seem to have the right eyeballs looking at our city and the way in which it functions - far too many toes you could thread upon, I assume. Far too many large egos and demi-gods. Too many separate public and private institutions which are worried about their own self-preservation. I mean, when you think about universities, and all of those buses travelling out to Belfield in the mornings with 4 students on board - you have to think of LUAS going through UCD, or going through DCU or the new DIT site at GrangeGorman. I hate to say it, but Tallaght Institute of Technology is probably one of those few campuses in Dublin now, which does have a proper, regular transportation system to service it. I don't think buses are the correct way to think about servicing a University. Does anyone here know of university campuses that are serviced by a rail system, or light rail system?

Mind you my plan would greatly inconvience those who "Stick her up on the kerb" and nip in for a Paper-Single-Kebab-Pizza etc BUT we have to Make some choices here if the Village ethos is to be meaningfully retained and expanded....


Yeah, it would be a real shame if Ranelagh were to lose the Porsche driving yuppies stopping for take away at the village, while speeding out to Sandyford to work in Microsoft.


Brian O' Hanlon.
garethace
 
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Joined: Wed May 14, 2003 9:01 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Provincialism

Postby Craig_Purcell » Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:50 pm

Starbucks always finds the best place to locate all over the world so don't feel bad. Locating a coffee shop at a busy traffic intersection is a no-brainer - Christopher Alexander 101 stuff.

I would be kind to yourselves and not put out the charge of provincialism as an argument to convince others to do better urban design - the locals never respond to this charge and just dig in their heels and call "home" better. Just do great urban design, travel and experience the good places all over the world and make good arguments as to why one should build the City.

P.S - What is a "Clamper"?

Regards,

Craig Purcell
Craig_Purcell
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Location: Baltimore, Maryland,USA

Re: Fair Play to Starbucks

Postby garethace » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:12 pm

Any one of you urban savy planning types, want to try and define a 'clamper' for me? ? ? Or perhaps provide a link to their website?

:-)

Brian O' Hanlon.
garethace
 
Posts: 1579
Joined: Wed May 14, 2003 9:01 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

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