Dublin Fruit Market

Dublin Fruit Market

Postby PVC King » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:23 pm

August 1 2004: Dublin fruit market for redevelopment
The Sunday Business Post


"The area around the Dublin Fruit and Vegetable Market on St Michan's Street in Smithfield is set for redevelopment following the decision by several traders operating in the market to relocate to a more accessible site on the north side of the city. The Dublin Markets Business Group, which represents many of the traders, has appointed a team to identify a 20-acre site close to the M50 and Dublin Airport to accommodate a 28,000-square-metre purpose-built facility. The team includes auctioneers Hamilton Osborne King, architects Traynor O'Toole, project managers 4 Front, and quantity surveyors Kerrigan Sheanon Newman." End Quote

I think this is one of the most interesting projects the City Centre has seen in years. It is a real opportunity to put in a major attraction between O'Connell St and Smithfield.

If the future of the area was mirrored by the recent office development on Capel St I think the area is in trouble.

Incidently the initial developer of the Corporation Fruit market went bust as the costs went out of control so construction inflation was a problem in the 19th Century as well!!!!!

Any Thoughts?
PVC King
 

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:36 pm

Remember the scheme in The Sunday Times, a year or two back?

http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2002/000279.htm
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Postby PVC King » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:50 pm

Originally published by News International
But the council insists it’s in the business of resuscitation, “reclaiming a part of the city that’s been dead and unknown,” according to Jim Barrett, city architect.

http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2002/000279.htm


I lived in the Old Distillery for a year and the phrase dead and unknown really stands up once you turn off Capel St. It is a pity because it is such a central location to have a void.

Although similarly to Temple bar pre 1991 there are a lot of fine old buildings suitable for renovation.

Any flagship project in this area is to be welcomed, as Temple Bar displayed a few flagship restorations can lead to some really good contemporary buildings following up.

The exit of Fruit and Veg wholesalers to an edge city location is also to be welcomed as it will reduce HGV traffic and free up space for higher end uses :D

A closer look at the plans will be very interesting
PVC King
 

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:31 pm

Shane O'Toole wrote an interesting piece with pictures of a model. Unfortunetly News International deems that anyone physically outside of the UK + Ireland has to pay for access to their site. So I cannot grab the story or refresh my memory....
User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Postby urbanisto » Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:01 pm

From what I remember of the proposals there is to be an L-shaped 6 storey srtucture on two sides of a new square on the current site of the fish markets which will be demolished. The current Fruit and Veg markets will front onto the square. This building will be revamped to become a commercial markets along the lines of the Engilish Market in Cork. There are also plans to replace the Fyffes warehouse. I also understood that there were to be certain design criteria laid downa nd that a maximum height of 6 storeys was to be implemented with a number of higher focal point buildings allowed.
urbanisto
Old Master
 
Posts: 2499
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby Sue » Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:34 pm

Source: Sunday Times
Issue Date: Sunday December 30, 2001
Byline: John Burns

MOLLY MALONE must be spinning in her grave: her old stomping ground, Dublin's fish market, is to be demolished.

In its place, Dublin corporation is planning to build a colonnaded square encompassing the nearby fruit-and-vegetable market, which is to be refurbished.


Designed by Donnelly Turpin and MBM, a Barcelona firm, the square will be pedestrianised and will cover an area the size of Mountjoy Square, also on the city's northside.


The development, due to be unveiled in February, is a dramatic and ambitious scheme, on a par with the overhaul of Smithfield and Temple Bar.


Occupying a 6,000sqmetre site behind the Four Courts, the fruit-and-veg market is one of Dublin's least known architectural treasures. It first opened for business in December 1892.


The adjacent fish market dates from five years later but is a much less important structure. Many fishmongers have already deserted it and much of the unlisted building is used as a car park.


The fate of the remaining fishmongers has yet to be decided. Several are refusing to leave their stalls and want compensation from the corporation, which is confident of reaching an agreement with them about alternative accommodation soon.


Fishmongering has declined since Molly Malone's day, with a drop in the catch, co-operatives selling directly to shops and higher prices.


Tommy O'Callaghan, chairman of the Dublin Fish Market Wholesalers' Association, says he hopes the new market will include the fish traders.


The traders, with Bord Iascaigh Mhara, the sea fisheries agency, had submitted a plan to the corporation that would include a fish market, restaurants, shops and an aquarium in the new development.


"Every capital city in the world has a fish market. The traders want to stay in this area. This market is very traditional and is a part of old Dublin," said O'Callaghan.


The corporation, which owns the fish market, has refused to spend Pounds 1m refurbishing it and decided instead to demolish the now-dilapidated structure. Corporation chiefs argue that Luas, the light rail scheme, would also disrupt the operation of the market.


Jim Barrett, the city architect, said: "Most of the big operators are already moving out of the market anyway.


"It is a very important quarter and this is an attractive scheme. We want to keep a market here while getting rid of the huge articulated lorries that come into the area. Many residents have complained about refigerated lorries humming through the night."


Many stalls, some of which have been run by families for up to five generations, will have to be abandoned to make room for the refurbishment.


Derek Leonard, whose great-grandmother was one of the first to set up a stall in 1892, said: "It's the end of an era."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Headline: A market square deal;Architecture
Source: Sunday Times
Issue Date: Sunday December 08, 2002
Byline: Shane O'Toole


Far from being the end of Molly Malone's old stomping ground, Dublin council's plans offer a new lease of life for the markets area, reclaiming it for the public, says Shane O'Toole

Some of Dublin city council's critics claim that its new plan for the north inner-city markets area will finish off Molly Malone, the fishmonger, once and for all. But the council insists it's in the business of resuscitation, "reclaiming a part of the city that's been dead and unknown," according to Jim Barrett, city architect.


True, the "markets area framework plan", currently on public display, proposes the demolition of the dilapidated wholesale fish market, located between Capel Street and the Four Courts, to create a new market square - the one Dublin never had - but you'd have to be blinded by nostalgia or prejudice not to lick your lips at the stylish retail fish hall that will be the rejuvenated market's shop window to the city.


It's not as if the fishmongers haven't moved before. An earlier fish market stood on the site of the elegant fruit and vegetable market, which replaced scattered street markets when it was executed in 1889-92 by the city engineer Spencer Harty to the 1884 designs of Paul Merrill.


The sale of fish, meat and vegetables has been carried on within this district since medieval times, when St Mary's Abbey held fairs on the green, an area now occupied by Green Street courthouse. Later there were markets around Green Street and St Mary's Lane.


Dublin is lucky to have retained its central food markets, in contrast to London and Paris, where the loss of the old Covent Garden and Les Halles are still lamented. These days, with the markets long in decline, the business is mostly wholesale. Surrounding buildings are used primarily as warehouses.


The supermarket chains have developed their own distribution systems and no longer depend on centralised markets. Urban congestion and the need for distribution centres with direct access to national routes will eventually drive the remainder of the distribution end of the business out of town.


If the area's future could lie in the combination of local wholesale business with an all-day retail market, where the public could shop and eat, then a radical change of use that would weaken Dubliners' sense of identity of their city might be avoided.


The issue has been forced by the imminent arrival of Luas, the light rail system through the heart of the markets area. A framework is needed to steer the inevitable planning applications for office developments to replace underused warehouses.


The council turned to David Mackay, one of the "three wise men" - the others are Sir Richard MacCormac andProfessor John Worthington - who since early last year have been advising the city manager on Dublin's development explosion. The panel was inspired by the Barcelona authority, which operates a similar scheme.


Mackay has lived in Barcelona since 1958. Through the pioneering work of his firm, MBM, in the reconstruction of Barcelona's public spaces in the late 1970s, he became a world leader in recovering the architect's role in the design of cities.


Throughout the 1990s, Mackay had a profound influence on Dublin's re-emergence as a European city of architectural note. He was a member of the competition juries for Temple Bar and Smithfield, the developments that placed contemporary Irish urban design on the international map.


The Dublin architecture firm Donnelly Turpin and Roger Zogolovitch of AZ Urban Studio, a London-based consultancy specialising in urban regeneration, have been working with MBM since April 2001 to develop the plan for the markets area. Mark Turpin says what impresses him most is Mackay's insistence on a strategy that is flexible enough to absorb the life of the city.


"He says we must absolutely resist the temptation to descend into architecture," says Turpin. Instead, what they have come up with a series of urban design principles, facade alignments and building heights. Only the appearance of the square is fixed.


The framework's big move - the radical idea to carve out the market square Dublin never had - emerged at a meeting in Barcelona between Mackay, his partner Oriol Bohigas and their colleague, Francesc Gual. The image they had in mind was Cracow, Poland, where the arcaded cloth hall stands in the middle of the medieval market square.


At about 130 metres in each direction, the space will be divided in two by the free-standing fruit and vegetable market: to the west, on the site of the fish market, there will be a broad parade; to the east, where the arcaded side of the square deflects to follow the boundary of the old abbey, the form will be that of a tapering promenade. "We had the building, but not the square," says Paraic Fallon, the city council's senior planner. "Now we'll have a new civic space, with the fruit and vegetable market as a focus."


About 80% of the building will be given over to food retailing. Only its north and west facades are elaborately detailed in terracotta panels and cut stone. New market workshops will screen the blank east facade and a glassy fish market hall will advertise the markets to passers-by.


The fish hall will be serviced from below, and 500 parking spaces will be provided on two levels beneath the square. The six-storey buildings surrounding the square will supply the area's defining landmark, but there will also be substantial four-storey developments to the north and east, with 550 new dwellings doubling the area's population of 1,200.


Three-quarters of the land needed for the redevelopment is in private ownership. Planning permission has recently been granted to Begley Brothers, the fruit importers, to kick-start the plan by building the middle third of the east side of Market Square.


Barrett likens the framework to what he calls the "Merrion Square phenomenon": development is unlikely to happen quickly, as opportunities will be parcelled out into four units here and six units there. "It will creep up on us," he says. "We'll end up with kinks and individuality, but within an overall order.


The Markets Area Draft Framework Plan is on display at the Community Resource Centre, North King Street, Monday-Friday 10am-4pm until December 23 http://www.dublincity.ie/planning/city markets/pics titles.htm



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sue
Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby PVC King » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:53 pm

I'd like to see some images but I think it sounds well thought out, the Fruit markets are a real hidden treasure and if the fish markets are not listed I can't see a problem with it.

It must be a real objective to put a quantum of high value added land use other than legal in to the area. Something that will attract large numbers in the evenings from beyond the immediate Smithfield/ Capel St area.

Does anyone have any montages?
PVC King
 

Postby Harry » Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:34 am

There is some information here.

http://www.reflectingcity.com/0205b.htm

It is a bit old now, but the idea has been around for a while.
Harry
Member
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:06 pm
Location: Dublin

Postby PVC King » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:34 am

Thanks Harry,

I had forgotton that site probably because the images are so large that it tkes for ever for the page to open, but they are very sharp once open.

It looks interesting particularly the idea of a Square, it is good to see investment going into this area. Particularly when the architectural quality is high.
PVC King
 

Postby d_d_dallas » Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:57 pm

image:
Attachments
's views.jpg
's views.jpg (66.27 KiB) Viewed 16294 times
d_d_dallas
Senior Member
 
Posts: 850
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 2:27 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby urbanisto » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:15 pm

The Times reports that the old Fish Markets will be demolished from today. Should take 6 weeks. The demolision means that the long awaited rejuvenation project for this area commences.
urbanisto
Old Master
 
Posts: 2499
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby Alek Smart » Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:36 pm

The figure that grabs me by the Short n Curlies is that 500 space underground/multi storey Car Park.
Now perhaps because I have misplaced my Pince-Nez but I cannot seem to find any mention of a Public transport quotient in this magnificent Grande-Vision for Nord-Ouest Dublin City...
Perhaps if the developers were to surrender ( :eek: ) 50 Car Spaces in favour of a small enclosed Bus Terminal or Interchange it might be interpreted as a Socially Beneficial gesture..??
Yet again it appears that Dublin City Council stands back and refuses to raise as much as an "Ahem!!" whilst scribblin the word BUS on the jotter in front of them....
Presently the area is like something from the "Living Dead" especially come evening time and the Luas has failed rather spectularly to inject a frisson of life into it.
Given that Transport 21 rather incredibly ignores Bus Travel as a viable adjunct to City Living perhaps Dublin Bus itself might get together with the Developers to see if there is a mutually beneficial package which could be assembled...?
It`s all very well getting rid of the Articulated Trucks,but what`s the benefit of replacing them with several hundred cars...even if they will be off-street and safe from the rioters...... :(
Alek Smart
Member
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:34 pm
Location: Tallaght

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby PVC King » Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:45 pm

Totally agree Alek

given the presence of Luas a shift of de 39 stable of buses to this location would have been most welcome.
PVC King
 

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby kefu » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:52 pm

The wrecking crew have been brought in and the Fish Markets are gone. The whole site has been cordoned off so looks like significant progress on this redevelopment at last.
I think it's a hugely important project and hopefully it will help widen the city towards the Four Courts and Smithfield.
kefu
Senior Member
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby Alek Smart » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:40 pm

Totally agree Kefu....I believe this site and it`s environs has far greater capability to be a socially diverse and lively public area than the entire Spencer Dock programme ever will be.

Whats far more worrying however is the continuing refusal of the Civic Authorities to move a little in that all-inclusive direction.
One meaningful way of achieving this would be to make Public Transport Area Access ridiculously easy and cheap whilst making private motoring access as bloody expensive and slow as possible.
So far it seems as if its a "more-of-the-same" proposal with plenty of gated communes and underground "Secure" parking.
We`re still not getting it............;)
Alek Smart
Member
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:34 pm
Location: Tallaght

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby kefu » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:47 pm

What's interesting too, in light of the decision to move the Abbey up to the IFSC, is that this site was never even mentioned as a possiblity. I think it would have been a far superior location.
kefu
Senior Member
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby PVC King » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:46 pm

I agree it would have had at least some contextual relationship to many of the plays at the Abbey
PVC King
 

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby notjim » Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:33 pm

From the post last Sunday:

Sunday Business Post 16 September
Bidder to be chosen to develop fish market site
16 September 2007 By Neil Callanan
The redevelopment of a former wholesale fish-market site in Dublin 7 has moved a step closer.

Dublin City Council is expected to choose a preferred bidder to develop the fish market site by the end of the month.

The site is part of a planned €400 million rejuvenation of Dublin’s Markets area, which is between Henry Street and Smithfield in the north-west inner city. The Victorian fish market on the site has already been demolished.

The site is expected to be redeveloped as a commercial and residential complex, up to six storeys in height. Underground car parking will also be developed.

The council decided to demolish the fish market because it was underutilised and there was an opportunity to provide retail, restaurant, residential and cultural use on the site.

It will also provide an opportunity to build new office accommodation for the legal sector based around the Four Courts.

The new buildings will overlook the fruit and vegetable market, which is one of the most recognisable buildings in Dublin.

Six groups were originally invited to take part in the competitive process for the fish market site after a public notice last December seeking expressions of interest in the redevelopment.

Proceeds from the sale of the site will go towards the cost of a new civic square surrounding the fruit and vegetable market, a community facility and an underground car park.

The council wants to develop the square because it claims the distance between O’Connell Street and Smithfield, at 1.25 kilometres, is too far to create a natural connection between the two.
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby jdivision » Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:38 pm

It's between two parties, one of which is the Kelly family presumably acting with partners.
jdivision
Senior Member
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:34 pm

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby manifesta » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:16 am

Here's one for the Statistically Improbable Phrases detector:
Sunday Times wrote:
stylish retail fish hall

It will be interesting to see what happens with the redevelopment of this area. The fruit & veg markets are architecturally gorgeous.

Image

Image

I love the alternating patterns of brickwork. . . satisfies both the symmetrical side of my brain and the asymmetrical:

Image

The ornamental embellishments -- fruits, fish, and vegetables -- at the base of each of the smaller arches are a great detail. No matter what happens to the interior or to the adjacent sites (er. . .'stylish retail fish hall'?), a bit of hidden history remains in the architecture itself. Shame, though, about the upkeep or lack thereof. The graffiti's made a mess of it.

While the loss of the adjacent fish market marks the end of an era, it seems inevitable. When the storied Fulton Fish Market (immortalized in Joseph Mitchell's excellent collection of essays Up in the Old Hotel) was finally booted out of lower Manhattan in 2005, the city gained an opportunity for development but lost a bit of its history. I wonder what will happen over time not just to the people who are moved out of the area but also to the stories -- or can we ever hope for anything more than one-liner laments over Molly Malone?
manifesta
Member
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:13 pm
Location: in transit

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby jdivision » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:12 am

The fish market is already gone manifesta afaik. The traders have moved out past the M50 to Ballycoolin I think.
jdivision
Senior Member
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:34 pm

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby notjim » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:31 am

notjim wrote:Proceeds from the sale of the site will go towards the cost of a new civic square surrounding the fruit and vegetable market, a community facility and an underground car park..


So this civic square: wasn't the original plan for an outdoor market on the fish market site, which I thought was a fantastic idea, is that the same as a civic square or has the plan changed?
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby urbanisto » Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:02 pm

No the old Fish Markets will be developed to enclose a square that will have the Fruit and Veg markets as a centrepiece. The ironwork from the Fish market was salvages to create a new addition on to the southern part of the F&V. The square probably will have some outdoor markets. The images look great and I think can still be found on the DCC website.
urbanisto
Old Master
 
Posts: 2499
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby zico » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:43 pm

have a look at update technologies .ie webpage , go to projects - commercial - smithfield
project by B O Halloran architects for Church st
zico
Member
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Dublin Fruit Market

Postby GrahamH » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:27 pm

The doorcases either side of the main entrance seem almost identical to those of the underside of the Loop Line bridge spanning Westland Row. Same architect I wonder?
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4592
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Next

Return to Ireland