Look at de state of Cork, like!

Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby theblimp » Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:13 am

"It would great if Cork could host some of the Heineken Cup games, so it would be great to have a multi-purpose sports facility... maybe the GAA should think outside of the box for once and invite IRFU and the FAI into discussions."

Mickeydocs - while it would indeed be a great and laudable idea I'll ask you to cast your mind back to the vote on opening Croke Park. Which county was most opposed to it? With the current crowd running the county board I doubt if there'll be any discussions with Munster Rugby or Cork City FC in the near future
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby mickeydocs » Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:30 am

theblimp wrote:"It would great if Cork could host some of the Heineken Cup games, so it would be great to have a multi-purpose sports facility... maybe the GAA should think outside of the box for once and invite IRFU and the FAI into discussions."

Mickeydocs - while it would indeed be a great and laudable idea I'll ask you to cast your mind back to the vote on opening Croke Park. Which county was most opposed to it? With the current crowd running the county board I doubt if there'll be any discussions with Munster Rugby or Cork City FC in the near future



Agreed. There's a certain member of the Cork County Board deadset against change. He is at odds with the grassroots gaa fan/player/selector.
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby securityman » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:11 am

I've just started out recently as a rep in the security business and I'm wondering could anybody steer me in the right directions for new developments coming up or just started in the cork area and who is the relevent people to contact. I regularly check the press but as you know they seem to be a bit behind and someone who has the contacts are already doing the job. I'm really enjoying the debates on Cork as I've only discovered this site in the last few days.
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby Radioactiveman » Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:51 pm

I've heard that OCP will submit planning applications for their St. Patrick Street/Academy Street development by the end of this month.
Can anybody confirm this?
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby mickeydocs » Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:47 pm

securityman wrote:I've just started out recently as a rep in the security business and I'm wondering could anybody steer me in the right directions for new developments coming up or just started in the cork area and who is the relevent people to contact. I regularly check the press but as you know they seem to be a bit behind and someone who has the contacts are already doing the job. I'm really enjoying the debates on Cork as I've only discovered this site in the last few days.



this thread contains information on pretty much all of the sites proposed for the city

you should also pay attention to the planning department.
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Postby lexington » Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:44 pm

Radioactiveman wrote:I've heard that OCP will submit planning applications for their St. Patrick Street/Academy Street development by the end of this month.
Can anybody confirm this?


I believe it is mentioned in one of my previous posts that the application was scheduled for sometime in July but I know there have been delays and it may be a little later. Unfortunately I don't have any exact date. I'm anxious to see the application proposal. It's been a while since I saw drawings on the project and I don't know how much they may have since changed. I wouldn't expect it to be exceptionally different and if so, you can take it that the design will please some, not please others and be generally controversial (given the location, it always was going to be irrespective of the design). I'll keep my efforts on-going to see if I can get an early image but it may be a case of waiting nearer or until the lodgement date. I'm anxious to see the VIS and the impact the building has on its neighbours - most importantly those at Emmet Place. There were some elements of the building I drew question marks over/wasn't happy about, so it'll be interesting to how or if they have been rectified - overall though its not all that bad considering the scale - but we'll wait and see what the final pitch is.

-> Just on a side note, figures for the month ended May 2005 show a satisfactory increase in trade volumes at Mahon Point. As predicted, it seems to be gradually finding its feet. Whatever about MP, Academy Street always seemed like the greater potential given its location - let's hope it rings true.

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mickeydocs - regarding a 2nd 'world-class' stadium, I believe Dublin is too centralised as it is. It would be of no harm for a 2nd stadium of sufficient capacity and stature was developed in somewhere like Cork which has the most capable infastructure and support to facilitate such a facility outside of Dublin - I say that knowing that Cork has a long way yet to go in terms of fine tuning. I believe it would not only be good for Cork and for the rest of the country, but indeed for Dublin in the strategic run of things.

(By the way, infastructure does not simply mean roads etc etc but hotels, airport, port, rail, population services and so on).
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*updates*

Postby lexington » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:24 am

:) Adrian Power is now lodging an application for the development of a 7-storey office building with 2134m sq of floor space for Clarke's Bridge (as reported earlier). The development was designed by Coughlan de Keyser Architects and is being marketed by DNG Harris. The development has and is expected to receive further interest given its prime location along Cork's legal district.
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:o CCC in conjunction with Fleming Construction and Coleman Bros. Developments have made public notice of their intent to develop 405 new homes (287 social/affordable and 118 private) on the 24.5-acre lands at Shanakiel (former Convent/Hospital Grounds). The development will consist of 8 4-bedroom dwellings, 195 3-bedroom terraced houses, 16 3-bedroom duplexes, 16 ground floor 2-bedroom apartments - under the affordable category. With 1 2-storey 5 bedroom detached house, 4 4-bedroom houses, 6 3-bedroom, 36 3-bedroom terrace/semi-detached, 5 2-bedroom bungalows and 66 apartments over 10 2-storey blocks in the private element.

The development will allow for predominantly southern aspect views among most of the homes on this excellent, sloped site. Vehicular access to the development will be permitted for Blarney Road and Shanakiel Hill gateways.
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby mickeydocs » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:42 am

mickeydocs - regarding a 2nd 'world-class' stadium, I believe Dublin is too centralised as it is. It would be of no harm for a 2nd stadium of sufficient capacity and stature was developed in somewhere like Cork which has the most capable infastructure and support to facilitate such a facility outside of Dublin - I say that knowing that Cork has a long way yet to go in terms of fine tuning. I believe it would not only be good for Cork and for the rest of the country, but indeed for Dublin in the strategic run of things.

(By the way, infastructure does not simply mean roads etc etc but hotels, airport, port, rail, population services and so on).[/QUOTE]



Hey Lex, you know that I would like to see such a stadium built in Cork as much as anyone. I reckon 35-40,000 tickets could be sold for Heineken cup games, and it goes without saying that the inter-county team can fill a 40-60K stadium with ease.

For such a stadium to be viable it would have to be a multi-purpose.

If the GAA in the North can agree to such a project, I really don't see why the GAA in Cork can't agree to something similar (and yes I am very aware of the power of a certain individual who is anti-progress).
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby Radioactiveman » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:32 pm

I notice (with a little bit of sadness) that Fota Island is slowly but surely being eaten up by private development. The island should have been kept as a public amenity, incorporating Fota House and Gardens, Fota Arboretum, Fota Wildlife Park and open recreational spaces for the City and East Cork.

However, this is not the case and Fleming are on site building a 125 rooom luxury Hotel with Penthouse suites, a raft of 'lodges' (aka houses for the obscenely wealthy), an extensive marina and a second - yes, a second 18-hole Golf Course. Why an island that small requires a second course we'll never know.
Couldn't an alternative use been found for this space? Scenic walkways, picnic spots? isn't one Golf course enough to fill the hotel?

Below is an arial view of the proposed work on the island, which actually serves (I think) to minimise the deleterious effect it will have on this gem in the harbour. (Remember the Old Head anyone?)

<img src="http://www.fota.ie/images%20web/aerialhi.jpg">
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby theblimp » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:47 pm

Yup, seems a shame. To be fair Fleming Construction are just maximising their investment - the rot set in when all of that land was sold off many moons ago. I know there was talk of a huge annual family festival to be held on the land in front of Fota House but it needed to use the car parks that were utilised during the Irish Open years. As this is now the location of the proposed new course it looks like it will never happen. There are plans for the Wildlife Park to extend north with an exotic animal section which was to include things like Siberian Tigers. From what little I know the Wildlife park is one of the most respected in Europe so I'm sure they'll do things properly - just seems a shame that future expansion would appear limited. This entire island could have become a major resource for the people of the region - now it's just going to be a plaything for the wealthy few. It kind of reminds of the Michael Dougas movie from years back (name anyone??) where he hops over a wall into a golf-course and starts having a go at the players for keeping the beautiful space for themselves.
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby mickeydocs » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:53 pm

The arboretum and House are open to the public.
The arboretum is spectacular, and probably the best collection of plants in the country.

The road to Fota is quite dodgy once you get off the euroroute.
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby St Luke » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:08 pm

These plans for Fota are another depressing example of the futher shrinkage of public space in Cork and environs. Fota presents classic opportunities to develop public parkland, particularly in the context of the expanding city. With outstanding public transport links, the potential to develop access there for people rather than for golfers is so high. I mean come on, golfers can drive anywhere.There are precious few recreational sites of this quality within the Metropolitian area.

I see this all pattern all around. The public domain, and important elements of urban life are disappearing - e.g The closure of The Gingerbread House on Paul Street,- whats next there ? Starbucks?? The Lobby nearly gone - nevermind the loss of Sir Henrys, the systematic take-out of pirate radiostations....oi! :(
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Frinailla Victoria Cross Development

Postby lexington » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:45 pm

:) Frinailla are expected to lodge their plans for Victoria Cross either today or Monday. The plans comprise of a development of 25 apartments over a large commercial unit. The development will range from 6 to 7 storeys over basement car-parking - and will be developed on the site of the former Plumbing Utilities Store across the road from Aras Developments' new student residence (currently under construction by Heberger Construction, designed by O'Shea Leader) and just north of the HSE's Cork Farm Centre. I hope to have images soon.

Frinailla's plans for Dennehy's Cross, designed by O'Mahony Pike, are expected to be lodged soon also.

(Update: Sorry, Frinailla have lodged their plans - a decision date is due for the 24th of August 2005. Expect to hear from CSD on this one!!! - the apartments will consist of 4 1-bedroom apartments and 21 2-bedroom apartments)
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:cool: Bernard Crowley & Gerald Paul are to apply for permission to develop 67 apartments w/ gym and creche in a 17m euro project rising between 5 and 7 storeys high at the former Riverside Farm along the Model Farm Road (west of Eden Hall/Tennis Village). The development will be submitted to Cork City Council for deliberation. Previous applications on the site in 2002 and 2001 also exist. Though the 2002 application for 61 apartments, designed by Dennehy & Dennehy (as also with the current application) was granted by CCC, it was refused on appeal. A decision date for this latest attempt is expected for the 28th of August 2005.
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Re: Frinailla Victoria Cross Development

Postby pier39 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:26 pm

lexington wrote::) Frinailla are expected to lodge their plans for Victoria Cross either today or Monday. The plans comprise of a development of 25 apartments over a large commercial unit. The development will range from 6 to 7 storeys over basement car-parking - and will be developed on the site of the former Plumbing Utilities Store across the road from Aras Developments' new student residence (currently under construction by Heberger Construction, designed by O'Shea Leader) and just north of the HSE's Cork Farm Centre. I hope to have images soon.

Frinailla's plans for Dennehy's Cross, designed by O'Mahony Pike, are expected to be lodged soon also.

(Update: Sorry, Frinailla have lodged their plans - a decision date is due for the 24th of August 2005. Expect to hear from CSD on this one!!! - the apartments will consist of 4 1-bedroom apartments and 21 2-bedroom apartments)


sooouuundsss interesting! looking forward to seeing the pics on this one. will frinailla get away with 7 storeys? well possibly it will depend on the design. building heights along this road are averaging between 5 and 9 anyway. plus with the possibility of the cork farm centre (ive heard the same talk too lex! ;) ) going up for a redevelopment in the coming years you can expect a 7-storey scheme (possibly) for that site also - plus dennehys cross. cahra and csd are going to have a baby. 7-storeys is the new 6-storeys.

also regarding academy street i hear csr are ready to go, think its ocp holding up the application on that for ? reasons. the examiner will prob get the heads up on that given the association of the site but hey chq still awaits us! :D
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*updates*

Postby lexington » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:51 pm

:o Following on from news that the application for the 7-storey Clarke's Bridge office development is to be lodged on Monday (4th July 2005), news also comes that the neighbouring premises to this site is to be developed itself by property-owner John O'Dwyer in a residential project designed by James Leahy & Associates. The development is expected to house a number of apartment units with ground floor units for commercial usage. The proposal is expected to reach 5-storeys and is to be lodged within the next 2 weeks.
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby phatman » Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:14 pm

Radioactiveman wrote:...Fleming are on site building a 125 rooom luxury Hotel with Penthouse suites, a raft of 'lodges' (aka houses for the obscenely wealthy), an extensive marina and a second - yes, a second 18-hole Golf Course. Why an island that small requires a second course we'll never know.
Couldn't an alternative use been found for this space? Scenic walkways, picnic spots? isn't one Golf course enough to fill the hotel?


Being involved in the project myself, I must correct you - it is a nine hole golf course which is being developed, alongside the old course, and on open space - no destruction of the woodland is involved. The old road to the golfcourse has been realigned around the extension, and alot of effort is going into the landscaping, in order to complement the surrounds as much as possible. As for the hotel, it being contained in the vicinity of the clubhouse, and is of tasteful design. I do admit it is a pity that such scale of development is taking place, in particular the extent of the housing project, i'm surprised this one passed through the planning process, it really shows the lack of policy as regards public amenity space within the council. I do think the marina is a good idea, however im not sure what the story will be as regards access, i can find out, or whether it will even make it through the planning process.

As for the hotel, will post some pictures up soon, progress is come along nicely, most of the concrete is being poured at the moment. No operator yet, expect an opening of april/may next year.
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby ewankennedy » Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:52 pm

Radioactiveman wrote:I notice (with a little bit of sadness) that Fota Island is slowly but surely being eaten up by private development. The island should have been kept as a public amenity, incorporating Fota House and Gardens, Fota Arboretum, Fota Wildlife Park and open recreational spaces for the City and East Cork.

However, this is not the case and Fleming are on site building a 125 rooom luxury Hotel with Penthouse suites, a raft of 'lodges' (aka houses for the obscenely wealthy), an extensive marina and a second - yes, a second 18-hole Golf Course. Why an island that small requires a second course we'll never know.
Couldn't an alternative use been found for this space? Scenic walkways, picnic spots? isn't one Golf course enough to fill the hotel?

Below is an arial view of the proposed work on the island, which actually serves (I think) to minimise the deleterious effect it will have on this gem in the harbour. (Remember the Old Head anyone?)


Did a Count in a Rolls-royce drive over and crush your tricycle as a child??? :D
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Postby lexington » Sat Jul 02, 2005 6:18 pm

Fleming Construction's 5-Star Fota Island Hotel. Designed by Hogan & Associates.

Image

Quite frankly, I've no problem with the principle of this development. Indeed, as the metropolitan and commuter belt areas of the city continues to expand at such pace, areas like Fota Island will make valuable recreational and economic contributions - you can't blame someone for taking advantage of an opportunity - I didn't see the foresight of Cork County Council and CCC, nor the OPW come into play when these lands came up for sale. For years I used to enjoy the Old Head of Kinsale (many a weekend was spent ab-seiling down by the lighthouse) - and its 'exclusive designation' I believe was unwarranted - its a long and complicated topic - but Fota differs in that this estate has historically be restictive in some domain or the other, so 'exclusivity' in this respect is not such a big issue I believe; nonetheless the island whole would have made a wonderful national park or something along those lines.

That aside, the hotel, golf courses and marina are pretty favourable. Golf is one of the bigger sporting contributors to this country and its economy - the development will could become a valuable contributor to the area over the coming years. My problem with this development is the extent of the lodgings - which, like many Fleming Construction residential developments are left somewhat wanting in the design department (though exception's like Trinity Court - love it or loath it - do exist). That's no particular dig at Hogan & Associates either - they seem to produce generally good standards of design given the freedom and budget to do so. I appreciate profit maximisation and all but even the most money-lusting businessperson knows sometimes you have to take your face out of the trough. There's opportunism and then there's riding an opportunity until its burnt - you have to know when to get off the ride. I just think the density of lodgings at Fota is excessive and their design does not befit the area.

Image Image
The Lodges: like every other repetitive housing estate throughout the country.

By the way, theblimp, that movie was 'Falling Down' was it not? ;)
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As for loss of greenspace - I think more serious issues such a the encroachment on our surrounding countryside of more (aforementioned) monotonous housing estates is a bigger threat the isolated and contained elements like Fota. Here I cite BrideView's LakeView House development, Ruden Homes at Lenaghmore, OFC at Dunkettle House and OCP at Classes Lake too. Its one of the reasons I seriously believe CCC are going to have to demonstrate a little ingenuity and readdress its high-rise policy in zones such as the docklands - but only exceptionally high standards of high-rise (that means more Swiss Re, Eglinton Streets, Burj al Arabs etc etc and less Treasury Holdings-type rubbish at Ballymun and Dublin's Docklands (i.e. THAT 32-storey Anthony Reddy thing and the other 32 storey yawnful building by Paul Keogh at Heuston Gate). I wholeheartedly accept the diffculty in producing mass housing comprising of varying design types - but surely more can be done with the amount of money being injected into such projects. These sprawling estates are more injurous to our greenspace than anything else - and the one thing that really irritates me is the loss of the fine landscaped urban greenspaces of former estates (like Dunkettle House, LakeView House, Tellenganna Lodge etc) to monotonous estate projects. These fabulous relics and provisions should be protected - they're vanishing fast and will be near impossible to ever replace.
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:confused: On this topic, I received an e-mail from a gentleman based on an apparent survey he received from a UCC Economics student. It was for a Survey Methods project and related to housing developments in and around Cork city and County. 5 developers were assessed O'Flynn Construction, Frinailla, Fleming, O'Brien & O'Flynn and McInerney. Supposedly 5 customers of projects by each of these developers (25 in total) were sampled and asked to complete a survey. Overall results were tallied and points were awarded based on categories including Design, Value for Money, Location, Covenience, Interaction, Landscaping and so on. The e-mail noted that O'Flynn Construction topped the results but it didn't specify the positions of the other 'players'. I'll e-mail the source and post the full results when I get them.
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby PTB » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:18 pm

Raidoactiveman, were the lands to belong to the county council, what exactly would you put want them to put there?Forgive my lack of imaginitiveness but all I keep coming up with is golf courses
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Re: Frinailla Victoria Cross Development

Postby kite » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:57 am

[quote="pier39"]sooouuundsss interesting! looking forward to seeing the pics on this one. will frinailla get away with 7 storeys? well possibly it will depend on the design. building heights along this road are averaging between 5 and 9 anyway. plus with the possibility of the cork farm centre (ive heard the same talk too lex! ]

:mad: Yep, you are right about CSD having a baby on this one, see their post on http://www.corksouthwest.com re. Liverpool's city of culture year 2008 below.


Cork City (For Sale)


The Mayor of Liverpool, Europe’s capital of culture 2008 gave an interview to Sky News on the 26th may 2005 after Liverpool’s victory in the UEFA champions league final…He said:



Liverpool went through a bad spell some years ago when property developers dictated what was built where and when in the city.

This unsustainable development caused untold damage to the fabric and pride of our city.

Things have now changed for the better, now we tell developers what we as a city need and want, and if they don’t like it they can go and destroy some other city. We now tell them Liverpool is NOT FOR SALE.

When we take over the mantle of Europe’s capital of culture we will be ready to show the world that Liverpool is back, vibrant, and looking forward.

We have no intentions of going back to the bad old days of inferior development.



Cork City Planners and Management take note……

Or is Cork for sale ???
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby phatman » Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:47 am

I agree with this in theory, just as long as the council's vision is solid. I mean isn't this already the case somewhat?ie. various development plans laying down guidelines for areas and even specific sites.
I take your point though Kite, CSD are again over-reacting and reading way too deep into this statement.
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby dave123 » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:33 pm

It the water street devolpment gets the go-ahead?
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby Leigh Teabing » Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:08 am

I bet you that the lodge JF has retained for himself looking onto one of the new fairways will get an extra bit of Architectural enhancement

Looks as if the Dubs are coming to town with the circa €7m purchase of the Reliance Bearing site. I guess Tommy Maher is rubbing his hands at the prospect of a little enquiry to sell his green single storey currently housing a squad of treadmills.
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Re: Look at de state of Cork, like!

Postby Radioactiveman » Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:34 am

<img src="http://www.fota.ie/logos/golf-3.jpg">

Fleming Construction are maximising their investment - I would not expect them to do otherwise.
My argument is that their investment could be maximised without the need to resort to the hugely unimaginitive golf course idea.
Seeing as there is already one golf course on the island, the space for the 9-hole course (thanks for the correction phatman) could have been given over for public walkways, riding trails, open festival space, parklands, equestrian centre, etc. By the way phatman, I dont think i ever suggested that woodland was being destroyed for the purposes of a golf course. That being said, the majority of courses- most especially Fota island looks like the most sterile form of "natural environment" you can come across.

I'd agree with Lexington, the "Lodges" (aka housing estate) looks pretty down market for the setting. An open admittance that its catering for the pseudo-rich as opposed to the actual rich perhaps :)
Of course, I would have preferred had the whole estate had been secured for public use. That being said, we should be grateful that Fota Wildlife park, fota House and the Arboretum are public property and have the best public transport system on the island :) Fleming can't take that away from us :)

To wrap this wrambling text up.... Fleming are free to maximise their investment within limits but they could have come up with something a little more imaginative than phatman and his golf course idea (sorry PH). Surely this would have added to the value of the houses, would prove more of an attraction to the hotel and cover Fleming's costs very adequately.
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Postby lexington » Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:44 am

Leigh Teabing wrote:
Looks as if the Dubs are coming to town with the circa €7m purchase of the Reliance Bearing site. I guess Tommy Maher is rubbing his hands at the prospect of a little enquiry to sell his green single storey currently housing a squad of treadmills.


It makes sense from a logistical and elevational perspective. It'll be interesting to see how they proceed with this one. Even more interesting will be whether or not Simon are approached - so far, I haven't heard anything, but if cards are played well, Simon could stand to benefit from a nice cash injection to facilitate the development of a decent, up-to-date centre and allow any development maximise its quay frontage. Frinailla were among the bidders and the Dublin firm I can't mention for the time beingm (as I previously indicated - sorry! But soon all goodness bidding.)

Image

Twill Ltd (industrial bag manufacturer) over on Albert Quay are supposedly 'deep' in discussions about relocating and freeing up their premises adjoining the former Doyle Warehouse. Note how Twill Ltd did not lodge an objection to the revised Eglinton Street plans - where they had objected to the original plans. ;) :confused:

Also, I believe Careys (Tool Hire) may surprise us all in the future. ;)

Its been interesting to watch the increased Dublin-based developer activity in Cork of late (SHUL, DAT etc) - expect more soon.
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