college green/ o'connell street plaza and pedestrians

Postby kefu » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:58 pm

Diaspora - as a northside to southside driver, I think you are jumping the gun on the Bachelor's Walk to O'Connell Bridge right turn. Already, the other main option for us across the top of St Stephen's Green has been removed. What would you suggest for people who have to drive that way? That they go along the NCR or along the Grand Canal - already two of the most congested roads in the city. Remember also that a lot of the right-turning traffic from the quays actually only goes down D'Olier Street and then turns left at the Screen - not going near Trinity or BoI.
kefu
Senior Member
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby Devin » Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:20 am

kefu, as a driver-thru-the-city what do you think of the banning of the right turn from Patrick St/Nicholas St into Christchurch Place to private cars? We (A Taisce Dublin City) suggested this in our submission to the draft City Dev Plan, as a traffic-calming measure for Dame St/College Gn, on the basis that it would mirror the recent banning of prvate car passage from Pearse St into College St, restricting traffic from entering the College Gn/Dame St area from the opposite direction.

Or are all these ideas here on this thread for calming College Gn premature before the Macken St bridge? (hope not)
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Postby kefu » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:13 am

Re: The Macken Street bridge - it is essential but I think the only net gain will be slight relief at two chronic pinch points on Pearse Street going North and Matt Talbot Bridge going South. If everybody abandons the East Link to avoid the toll, traffic could even get worse as a result.
I would have very little problem with the Patrick St right turn into Christchurch being banned.
The only issue is that it would be sending even more traffic towards and on to the quays.
Also, the multi-storey car parks wouldn't be too happy as it's a point of access for Trinity Street, Brown Thomas etc and some drivers would circumvent the ban by going down to the quays, crossing Capel Street Bridge, going up Parliament Street and turning left on to Dame Street anyway.
kefu
Senior Member
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby burge_eye » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:55 pm

Originally posted by Devin
kefu, as a driver-thru-the-city what do you think of the banning of the right turn from Patrick St/Nicholas St into Christchurch Place to private cars? We (A Taisce Dublin City) suggested this in our submission to the draft City Dev Plan, as a traffic-calming measure for Dame St/College Gn, on the basis that it would mirror the recent banning of prvate car passage from Pearse St into College St, restricting traffic from entering the College Gn/Dame St area from the opposite direction.

Or are all these ideas here on this thread for calming College Gn premature before the Macken St bridge? (hope not)


All the Pearse / college st ban did was create an infuriating half mile loop for those people needing to go up Dame street. In the process it made the left turn from Tara street to the quays a nightmare, clogged up D'Olier St or added to the general mayhem on Wellington Quay and Parliament Street.
burge_eye
Member
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:55 pm

Postby kefu » Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:22 pm

I agree with Burge_Eye.
The problem with Dublin is that when you close off a turn or a road, there is always a way to circumvent it. That circumvention usually involves a tortuous route and inevitably leads to either more traffic on a road that can ill-afford it or rat run shortcuts.
From a driver's perspective - Dublin has something akin to two extended pedestrianised squares miles, Henry Street and Grafton Street, with a handful of direct car routes like the North/South Quays, Pearse Street, Patrick Street, Church Street, Dorset Street, Amiens Street and so on running between and around them - all of these routes are completely congested already and any traffic alteration, no matter how minor, will only lead to more congestion.
kefu
Senior Member
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby PVC King » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:24 pm

Kefu,

I don't know why you turn right from Bachelors Walk to go South, the route of those who wish to avoid traffic has always been to continue along the Quays to Matt Talbot Bridge, turn right, turn left onto City Quay, Turn Right onto Lombard St East, left from Westland Row onto Fenian St before turning Right onto Merrion St with all Southside routes open from there minus the traffic.

Beyond my traffic advice there is a more important issue, i.e. what way is the transportation hierarchy tilted. In Dublin before now it has been tilted against those that spend money the pedestrian. The idea of improving pedestrian facilities within the very core of Dublin must come before facilitating commuters.

It is not going to seriously inconvenience anyone who seeks out new routes to work by combining what would seem like unorthidox routes. From my experience the major hold ups thus far are around Church St, the Northern Quays, Gardiner St, Pearse St North Strand and the Southern Canals and Morehampton Rd.

The new Macken St bridge will relieve Pearse St, Gardiner St and the North Strand.

Using Bridgefoot St & Francais St to the West eliminates the need to use Church St, the Northern Quays and Christchuch.

The delivery of a Quality Plaza will deliver more revenue to the CC than it will eliminate, it won't suit everyone buts thats life.

I have no sympathy for anyone who turns right onto Tara St or breaks the rule going West from Pearse St, you obviously haven't a clue how to get around this City.
PVC King
 

Postby burge_eye » Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:01 pm

Originally posted by Diaspora
Kefu,

I don't know why you turn right from Bachelors Walk to go South, the route of those who wish to avoid traffic has always been to continue along the Quays to Matt Talbot Bridge, turn right, turn left onto City Quay, Turn Right onto Lombard St East, left from Westland Row onto Fenian St before turning Right onto Merrion St with all Southside routes open from there minus the traffic.

I have no sympathy for anyone who turns right onto Tara St or breaks the rule going West from Pearse St, you obviously haven't a clue how to get around this City.


Diaspora, you are obviously either a taxi driver, a cyclist or have a job that allows you to commute at 10am or 3pm. What is clear, from your recent diatribe on the "look at the state of cork" thread, is that you resort to cheap abuse whenever people don't see things your way. I have a bicycle and I dice with death whenever possible but I live in Crumlin, work on Pearse St and have to go to site most days. I, therefore, spend a great deal of time driving around this city and I tell you what pal - I know the quickest way to get to work / get home.

I think this thread has turned into a Dublin A-Z simply because the whole idea of widening the footpath has been exhausted. Getting a better view of Trinity is obviously your cause celebre. Good luck.
burge_eye
Member
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:55 pm

Postby PVC King » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:33 pm

Burg- eye

This thread turned into a Dublin A-Z because the usual Dublin Transport will grind to a halt argument was brought out again.

If I had a tenner for everytime I had heard people say this about a particular road change I would be richer than Bill Gates.

I can understand your train of thought on the change at Pearse St seeing as you work there, but Pearse St as an East-West route is under normal circumstances an absolute no brainer.

I salute your courage cycling in Dublin, I like the protection of an engine in front of me either rail or car.

The reality is that College Green is the Natural Centre of Dublin, it is a pedestrian environment that compares amongst the worst in Europe on a comparative basis. If Dublin is serious about having an extended retail core changing College Green is an absolute must to put the shoppers first.
PVC King
 

Postby kefu » Fri Oct 22, 2004 3:14 pm

Diaspora, anybody going Northside to Southside will rarely if ever drive as far as Matt Talbot Bridge because the traffic light there allows about four cars through on each turn.
That means if there are even twenty cars there, which there normally are - you will have a six or seven minute wait.

To return to the subject, I think College Green should be effectively pedestrianised and all but taxis, buses and car park traffic banned a-la St Stephen's Green East. Traffic will be slowed but it is hard to imagine it going any slower.
Banning traffic from turning right onto O'Connell Bridge and then funnelling down Townsend Street does not, however, contribute to reducing traffic flow on College Green.
From a personal point of view, it would make my particular drive in the morning from Stoneybatter to Ballsbridge, which I used to go via Stephen's Green for, an even bigger nightmare.
And please don't offer me any more route advice, I know practically every single road and shortcut in the north and south city.
kefu
Senior Member
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby Devin » Fri Oct 22, 2004 3:19 pm

Originally posted by burge_eye


All the Pearse / college st ban did was create an infuriating half mile loop for those people needing to go up Dame street. In the process it made the left turn from Tara street to the quays a nightmare, clogged up D'Olier St or added to the general mayhem on Wellington Quay and Parliament Street.


Well it's a pity poor burgeye can't drive from Pearse Street straight into College Green anymore!

It goes without saying that when you close one route it increases congestion somewhere else. The idea of the above banning is that the overall volume of traffic going from Pearse Street to Dame Street is reduced, cos its more hassle to do it than it used to be.

The whole aim of these bannings is to make people ask if their car route needs to be going through the centre city or, preferably, if they could be using public transport or cycling instead. 30% of urban car journeys are under 3 kilometers. There's a lot of laziness in Dublin, a lot of people driving into town from Sandymount, Harolds X and Drumcondra, just because they have a work car space or can park in a multi-storey car park. These are the people the restrictions and bannings are aimed at.
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Access

Postby cod » Fri Oct 22, 2004 3:54 pm

It is imperative that college green is pedestrianised. People have to make choices every day whether to use the car to make a particular journey. I think that if traffic was restricted into the heart of the city, people will be resourceful and use other forms of transport or not make any unnecessary journeys. I recently cycled through D'olier st and College Green ( I am a car owner) and it proved to be a very scary experience being sandwiched between speeding cars and stretched buses. I also had the same scary experience crossing college green as a pedestrian. The centre of the Dublin should be designed to allow generous unimpeded pedestrian access from Stephens Green all the way to Parnell St. This can only be accomplished through a massive reduction in motor traffic going though college green and a large reduction in lane provision on D'olier/ Westmoreland St. It is a simple and straightforward idea and it requires bravery and innovative thinking by the city authorities. How they go about this ..that is another question but they cannot be heavily influenced by lobby groups with short term aspirations.....
cod
Member
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:10 pm

Postby Devin » Fri Oct 22, 2004 5:39 pm

Unfortunately, cod, heavy influence by lobby groups already resulted in the hideous failure of nerve by the Government in bringing the Luas Green line down Dawson Street and through College Green.

According to that EPA Environment Report released during the summer, dangerous emmissions from vehicle exhausts are now the biggest threat to air quality in the city, and restrictions on cars in the city centre on certain days will be required if we are to meet stringent new EU pollution limits.

Serious traffic-calming (if not complete removal) on College Green could be on the way at last!
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Postby burge_eye » Fri Oct 22, 2004 5:45 pm

Originally posted by Devin


Well it's a pity poor burgeye can't drive from Pearse Street straight into College Green anymore!

It goes without saying that when you close one route it increases congestion somewhere else. The idea of the above banning is that the overall volume of traffic going from Pearse Street to Dame Street is reduced, cos its more hassle to do it than it used to be.



It's not really a pity because I chose architecture as a career and as a result I'm never away til after 7, so I just drive up it anyway.

Much as I'd like to think it was an idealistic move, I think, however, the real reason for that change in traffic flow was to make it easier for the fire engines to get up Dame street. And to help the Garda get home quicker.
burge_eye
Member
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:55 pm

Postby tommyt » Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:08 pm

Originally posted by kefu
.
From a personal point of view, it would make my particular drive in the morning from Stoneybatter to Ballsbridge, which I used to go via Stephen's Green for, an even bigger nightmare.
And please don't offer me any more route advice, I know practically every single road and shortcut in the north and south city. [/B]


wow I can't believe anyone would even consider using a car for that journey!,On yer bike mate and get about 10 hours a week of your life back from commuterland!that's my idea of the ultimate car journey from hell!!!
tommyt
Member
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:39 pm
Location: D5

Postby Frank Taylor » Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:18 pm

Originally posted by kefu
From a personal point of view, it would make my particular drive in the morning from Stoneybatter to Ballsbridge, which I used to go via Stephen's Green for, an even bigger nightmare.
Have you tried Luas smithfield-connolly then DART connolly-ballsbridge?
Frank Taylor
Senior Member
 
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:38 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby kefu » Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:29 pm

Not when you have to go out during the day on jobs, usually down the country. Only takes twenty minutes because I work slightly off-peak hours.
kefu
Senior Member
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby tommyt » Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:22 pm

Originally posted by kefu
Not when you have to go out during the day on jobs, usually down the country. Only takes twenty minutes because I work slightly off-peak hours.


ah fair enough,I'd say you're praying a congestion charge isn't introduced any time soon though!
tommyt
Member
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:39 pm
Location: D5

Postby kefu » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:42 am

I've always suspected that any congestion charge introduced in Dublin could not apply to people who are resident inside the border of the Grand Canal and the North/South Circular Roads.
Otherwise, you would have to pay a fee just to visit your own home.
kefu
Senior Member
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby notjim » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:05 pm

do you not live in your own home kefu?
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby Frank Taylor » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:30 pm

Originally posted by kefu
I've always suspected that any congestion charge introduced in Dublin could not apply to people who are resident inside the border of the Grand Canal and the North/South Circular Roads.
Otherwise, you would have to pay a fee just to visit your own home.
In London, inner city residents still have to pay the congestion charge but get a 90% discount.
http://www.cclondon.com/downloads/ResidentsLiving.pdf
Frank Taylor
Senior Member
 
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:38 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby kefu » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:01 pm

I would certainly feel like a visitor to my own home (and a poverty-stricken one at that) if I had to pay €4 or €5 to get back there every time I drove across the North Circular Road.
kefu
Senior Member
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby PVC King » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:33 pm

They would have to do something for people like Kefu who live in the town or there would be uproar. The result I think is that many people who need motorised transport would buy houses inside the line to get around any charge that came in. Where years ago people got insurnace back home now, country people would use a buddy's address to get a free congestion pass if a charge was put in.
PVC King
 

Postby burge_eye » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:52 am

Originally posted by PVC King
They would have to do something for people like Kefu who live in the town or there would be uproar. The result I think is that many people who need motorised transport would buy houses inside the line to get around any charge that came in. Where years ago people got insurnace back home now, country people would use a buddy's address to get a free congestion pass if a charge was put in.


Similarly, when I worked in singapore they had a rule that only cars with red number plates could enter the city on mon, wed and fri. White number plates enter tues thurs and sat, with either being allowed in on Sunday. It was an easy way for the traffic wardens to police it without the need for charges. Unfortunately the people just bought another car leading to more congestion. It's a vicious circle.
burge_eye
Member
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:55 pm

Postby notjim » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:09 am

having people trying to live inside the line to get reduced charges is a plus but making it free would be a mistake.
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Postby Jack White » Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:36 am

Lads do you not think that it is a little premature to be discussing road pricing before the need arises. Have you never considered that this change might actually work in the absence of a charge.
The stick works the only problem is that the carrot is called CIE
Jack White
Member
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: Bray

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland