De-Centralisation

De-Centralisation

Postby d_d_dallas » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:30 pm

Big news form budget 2004...

Now that we have that nasty Vega City smokescreen out of the way - we have this distraction.
A stunt for an ailing FF for the 2004 local elections, or a genuine opportunity to renew and invigorate many of the towns throughout the country?

(or an attempt to push up real estate prices in places outside of Dublin!!!)
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Postby PVC King » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:42 pm

Long Term the right decision, but got at being the operative word and the worst possible timing.

I work for two organisations on both sides of the border, I use the enterprise a lot, we deal with the Department of Tourism. Possible to hold one meeting in Dublin and one in Belfast in one day, no problem. One meeting in Killarney (Kerry South TD J'O'D) and another in Belfast, no chance.

Seceondly the Dublin Office market is on its knees vacancy is 15.4% (Jack Fagan Irish Times) or Three Years supply.

Tax breaks in the middle of a boom, pulling the rug at the cyclical floor.

Well done lads you have underperformed the Sunday Indo's Market Monkey yet again.
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Postby Rory W » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:57 pm

Freeing up that amount of office space in Dublin will tear the arse out of the Commercial Property market in the city
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Postby dc3 » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:32 pm

Presumably the end of the Hawkins House refurbishment plan too?
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Postby PVC King » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:41 pm

That was shelved about six months prior I believe, although with An Post moving from College house, and with other OPW managed vacant buildings coming on stream, that entire block is looking shakey. An Attractive site to develop a decent development
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Postby GrahamH » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:08 pm

Really?
This is the first time I've heard of the plans being officially ditched for Hawkins.

Couldn't believe the Dept of Agriculture moving - one of the largest buildings in Dublin being vacated.
What's going to happen to the 100 year lease the State stumbled into with this building on Kildare St?
Perhaps Health could move from Hawkins to here - and the OPW, from the goodness of it's heart, knock Hawkins flat on its face and indulge in some faceless property development and build some quality 6 storey apartments in its place, hence rejuvinating the area, encourage inner-city living, and restore the low-rise skyline of this area of the city centre.

Also to move on Kildare St (well kind of) is the Dept of Communications, Marine & Natural Resources.

Can't you already hear the developers scrambling over each other to throw up more sprawling semi-ds to accomodate the armies of white-collars trooping out to the regions.
Well I never - benifitting the very supporters of FF
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Postby GrahamH » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:10 pm

Is the OPW to move completely from its flagship headquarters on Stephens Green?
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Postby Brian Hanson » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:29 pm

McCreevy said that the locations were picked because of their access to "road and rail routes".

Trim lost it's rail service in 1963

Cavan Town lost it's rail service in 1963

Knock never had a rail service and the Western Rail Corridor (nearest line) lost it's sevice in 1974 and is deemed unviable by the present government even though they are opening offices all allowing new towns and hosuing estate to spring up all along it.

Sounds like a FF re-election ploy and nothing else.

BTW he said no to Cardon Tax and yes to more motorways and tax relife on inner city car parks and Ireland now ofically is one of the most polluted countries in the EU thanks to auto emmisions and we face hundreds of million in fines. But McCreevy is doing everything to increse emmision.

something just ain't right... The road building lobby are spending our taxes and we'll end up paying the fines for our air quality. How come nobody talks about this?

http://www.platform11.org
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Postby PVC King » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:39 pm

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Postby GrahamH » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:41 pm

There are extensive consulations being carried out now with the view to legislate - incl carbon taxes - next year. Apparently.

Only 2,600 of the 10,300 jobs are going to the designated gateways & hubs, this is madness.
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Postby Rory W » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:56 pm

On 2 points from Graham
What's going to happen to the 100 year lease the State stumbled into with this building on Kildare St?


The state bought this out in the early 90s

Also to move on Kildare St (well kind of) is the Dept of Communications, Marine & Natural Resources.


Nope - that's off to Cavan (eventually) - only in Ireland would the Department of the Marine be in a landlocked county
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Postby d_d_dallas » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:56 pm

Lads - check it out... Newbridge, Trim, Portlaoise... aren't these all suspiciously close to the "new suburbs" of Dublin??? Head out on the M7/8 and ur at work - in other words - don't move house, just drive West instead of East into Town.
Also - the civil servants already based in Cork city are being moved to work in Macroom!!! This isn't decentralisation - these people already worked outside the capital - they're just being forced to drive West from the city centre to get to their new offices... do I see a pattern forming here?
Surely if they were going to send 10,000 civil servants outside Dublin they would FIRST begin sending them to areas with MOTORWAYS, RING ROADS, RAIL, and AIRPORTS. I.e. Cork and Limerick. Then they could begin to fill out the rest of the country - instead what we possibly might see is a load of mediocre towns in Ireland with mediocre infrastructure and our other cities drained into nothing.
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Postby anto » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:49 pm

Wait 'til all those civil cervants want to build their bungalows on the outskirts of these towns, Bungalow blight! ain't seen nothin' yet.

FF were never really committed to the Spatial Strategy plan, they are a clientilist, populist party and they're going to love this in the FF heartlands. Brilliant stroke with the upcoming local elections!

Maybe all this vacant office space will encourage conversion to apartments which I'm sure everybody agrees here will be a good thing.
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Postby d_d_dallas » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:00 pm

Well - those higher ceilings from the office space would certainly be a bonus.
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Postby PVC King » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:17 pm

The Sale of Numbers 1 + 2 Wilton Terrace By Jones Lang last year proves that offices can be converted into apartments very sucessfully
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Postby StephenC » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:21 pm

What will happen to all those prestigeous Ministerial headquarters in Dublin.... should the story become true and decentralisation happen. Im thinking of Defence (Infirmary Road), Education (Tyrone House - recently renovated) and OPW in particular.

One good thing is the opportunity for the OPW to offload some of the architectural tat that it currently uses. Particularly for Social Welfare and Comm. Marine & N R. Bye bye Apollo House.
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Postby GregF » Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:56 pm

How about moving that whole shower too out of Leinster House and down to Connemara or the Bog of Allen.
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Postby garethace » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:15 pm

The one significant thing that does bother me slightly about OPW designs, is that sometimes, a great project or renovation goes a bit under-utilised. Because the buildings need some kind of public liability insurance or something to really expand their functionality. I am aware of one very classy job done by the OPW down the country, which is a bit of a nonsense - lovely building, design etc. Lovely job - it just doesn't do much more than any 'brochure display unit' could do in the local newsagents. Get the idea?

I mean, short of 'promoting' tourist history/culture at local level - some of their work around the country doesn't have as much functionality as say a National School or something. But there was no expense at all saved on the job I know, best materials, detailing etc. It typically took like two whole generations to achieve and it is perfect architecturally in many respects. It gets about two visitors a day at peak season and employs one person and a student staring at the wall! The OPW are capable of awesome designs, but finding functionality for those renovation/restoration works, insurance etc, etc is a problem. It is not lack of architectural ability - it is lack of basic strategic business entrepeneur-ship.

On a similar point, what has Temple Bar become? Has its programme expanded, improved or otherwise gained much shape over the years? Is it thriving? Are all those award winning buildings actually hubs of activity. I think like the OPW thing, it is the exact same problem. I have been following the recent debate about giving the LA downtown the 'cultural architectural treatment'. But there has been a very strong argument to leave it - it is good already. It provides very reasonably priced real-estate for all kinds of small businesses to develop, for low class people to become middle class people by working, producing and selling stuff there is a market for.

What kind of a product is most OPW designed centres selling?
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Postby GregF » Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:41 am

Just thinking too that the Custom House (The Dept. of the Environment will need a new logo) and the Garda HQ in the Phoenix Park will become vacant, as well as many others. Might be detrimental for historic or landmark buildings in Dublin. The Custom House eventally becoming a drug centre or a night club after years of idleness etc....
Hope that the new offices built around the country will be of a stately design too.
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Postby PVC King » Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:47 am

Wasn't JFK right when he spoke of what might have happened if his grandfather stayed in New Ross and DEvalearaaaaaah stayed in Brooklyn.
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Postby what? » Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:48 am

greg f, are you saying that you hope they build some kind of neo classical headquarters around the country?
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Postby PVC King » Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:54 am

Not at all,

Neo-Classical was once cutting edge building technology.

I want to see contemporary cutting edge Fourth Generation spec-ed to the hilt designed by Irish or indeed international architects.

In 200 years they will look back at Apollo House, mock Regency hags like 30 Herbert Street and worse an urban sprawl that extends from Dundalk to Valentia.

Where are the modern classics? Not enough in this city, Liffey house is a building that I could never object to given its relationship with what surrounds it.
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Postby GregF » Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:11 pm

I agree with Diaspora,What!
Post modernism has had its day. Just hope the new HQs have a bit of thought in their designs and surrounding landscapes that will make them unique and a focal point in their areas.
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Postby what? » Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:18 pm

ok sorry, i was just making sure those ideas were dead and buried. i think if they follow the example of the county halls being built at the moment we will be doing just fine.
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Postby PVC King » Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:30 pm

That depends,

Galway City Council, which is my origin got it right a long time ago. South Dublin County Council.. lets say its more Parkwest than CityWest
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