Lansdowne Road Stadium

What's your opinion of the design?

I like it - a major change from the current one, and sufficently different from Croke Park
679
82%
Not keen, I don't really like it
101
12%
No opinion, the devil is in the detail as they say
44
5%
 
Total votes : 824

Lansdowne Road Stadium

Postby MB O'Maoileoin » Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:52 am

€500m bid to site Bertie's Bowl at Lansdowne Road



LANSDOWNE Road last night emerged as by far the most likely site for a new national sports stadium - if the price is right.

Sports Minister John O'Donoghue will bring proposals on a new stadium to Cabinet, but the price tag is likely to result in reservations from the PDs.

Following yesterday's meeting with the Football Association of Ireland and the Irish Rugby Football Union, Mr O'Donoghue revealed the overall cost of the stadium could be €515m with the two codes contributing €118.5m.

The FAI and IRFU yesterday presented a report to the minister which looked at four locations for a new stadium.

Mr O'Donoghue said he would examine the report in detail before bringing proposals to Cabinet.

If the figures are acceptable, the Government will decide on a location - and everything at this stage points to Lansdowne Road.

It is understood that in the costings presented by the consultants, the Ballsbridge venue came in lowest, ahead of Abbotstown.

Mr O'Donoghue is absolutely convinced of the need for a National Stadium.

"It is important that we build a stadium for the people of Ireland, for the IRFU, the FAI and our young people and to take our place in the world in hosting international games," he said.

Feasibility studies were carried out by consultants Ove Arup on four possible options: Lansdowne Road, Newlands Cross, Abbotstown and the former Irish Glass Bottle site in Ringsend.

The minister said the stadium would cost the Exchequer between €353m and €397m, with the FAI and IRFU contributing €118.5m. He said €71m could be recouped in VAT and a possible extra €100m through employment and other taxes. A spokesman for Tanaiste Mary Harney last night refused to comment on the report.

However, it is expected a price tag of more than €500m would be considered too high by the junior coalition partners in the current economic circumstances.

Lansdowne Road has a capacity of 49,000 with 24,000 seated. During international games the FAI are obliged to put in 11,000 temporary seats.

The minister said the FAI was in an "unfeasible situation" as far as hosting internationals was concerned.

International soccer bodies insist matches should be held in all-seater stadiums.

"If the capacity is reduced to 24,000 at Lansdowne Road it would cause immediate financial difficulty for the FAI and for the IRFU," the minister said.

He pointed out that with a 65,000-seater stadium the IRFU could earn €2m extra per home international.

The minister said suggestions that Croke Park be opened up would not resolve the issue due to over-lapping fixtures, damage to the pitch and the objections of local residents.

It also emerged last night that JP McManus's €60m donation may still go towards the stadium.

Mr O'Donoghue told Newstalk 106 he would hold talks with Mr McManus about the money.
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Postby urbanisto » Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:10 am

Why doesnt the Government become a shareholder in the new stadium and leave its running to the professional bodies. That way the 'provate sector' use their 'expertise' to profitably run the stadium and the State gets a longterm return on its investment.

Personally I think they should go ahead with Landsdowne Road. As least it already has a public transport link - although I think dear old CIE will need to consider an major upgrade to the DART station here - in tandem with the stadium redeveloment that is, not 15 year later.

Linking in with another thread.....that of LUAS. Surely the logical thing to consider would be for LUAS Line C - the one that is going from Abbey Street to Connolly and now on to the Point - to continue on over the river with one spur coming back up the south docklands area (maybe even a loop line to O'Connell Street) and another spur continuing on to Landsdowne Road via Ringsend. Too logical? Too much like forward planning?
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Postby d_d_dallas » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:10 am

Hooray! Logical choice ahoy... now if only the government can do the same for almost everything else
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Postby Murpho » Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:48 pm

Is there already a design for this or is it using the original Bertie Bowl plans?
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Postby Niall » Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:53 pm

€118 million from the FAI and IRFU, that's a great deal!!

No corporate sponsorship or selling seats corporately. Sure it's only the taxpayers money.

The final bill will be double what is anticipated, as and when the fleecers move in.

Personally, I would have prefered Abbotstown.

There now will be the mother of all battles re: planning in Dublin 4. There is NO way they wil be able to accomodatre 65,000 there and they know it.

Watch this space...........................
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Postby Rory W » Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:02 pm

The Millenium Stadium can accomodate 70,000 and is on a similar sized tight site in downtown Cardiff - why cant Lansdowne Niall?
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Postby GregF » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:01 pm

See too that are are building a new Opera House in Cardiff.....puts Dublin and the bureaucratic thicks here in the ha'penny place. Shame on them all, the fools....robbers of the nation.
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Postby ew » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:15 pm

Why the Abbotstown preference Niall? I never understood why anyone would want the stadium out there.
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Postby d_d_dallas » Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:15 pm

Lansdowne is in my opinion a superior location over Abbotstown - I'd way prefer a stadium in walking distance to town and more importantly on a DART line over some field with no transport links at all.

I do see D4 residents in action group not taking this lying down though... sure if we're spending all that free Taxpayers money why not just compulsory purchase order the lot of them - what a few €Bn here and there...
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Postby Niall » Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:16 pm

Whay do I prefer Stadium Ireland?

1) It won't have the same planning objections or local vested snobs as Lansdowne

2) It has the space

3) It is a bold statement that our country/capital or its sporting click are not obssesed with Dublin 4 rugby. By that token, why not Cork?

and importantly

5) IT'S CHEAPER!!!!!!!

Yes, Lansdowne has the Dawrt, big deal, Abbotstown has Ashtown and other stations and the M50, but it's not D4! Ever hear of buses?

The mother of all planning battles and hold-ups are now going to happen in D4 and it will cost an absolute fortune, which taxpayers not the IRFU or FAI are going to fork out for. In the meantime where do we play our matches cause it won't be Croke Park.

Watch this space.................................
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Postby ew » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:16 am

All of the reasons given for Abbotstown are based on the ecconomic argument. Site being cheaper, also cheaper to get through planning etc. I personally think the argument is flawed and does not standup when total cost is considered.
There is tons of info available explaining why there is a trend away from out of town stadia. A lot of this is based on ecconomics and if anyone has seen Stadium Australia recently you will know just how bleak a new stadium can look 99% of the time.

But be that as it may, I wanted to know if anyone actually felt that the Abbotstown proposal would give the punter a better experience. Judged on this criteria Landsdown is streets ahead in my book but I wanted to know how in terms of use, a case could be made for Abbotstown. For example, in the US people have been known to throw parties in the parking lots on match day and people go there even without tickets. Or is there a unique and wonderful experience that will be provide by the architecture that could not be done on a tighter site?



On a more gloomy note - what's stopping IRFU from developing he landsdown site as high yield apartments, pocketing the cash, and moving out to a free stadium in abottstown at taxpayers expense?
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Postby d_d_dallas » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:20 am

Build the National Stadium in Cork??? That sounds waaay to good an idea - what are the chances in this, the most centralised decentralised country. What would the D4ites say if they not only had to leave their backgarden - but Dublin itself to see a game?!?

The National Conf Center in the UK is in Birmingham - so why does our National Stadium necessarily have to be in Dublin (like everything else) - god knows Limerick or Cork CC would kill to have that kind of a project come their way.
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Postby Niall » Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:30 am

Yes, d d Dallas, why not Cork!


From above
"On a more gloomy note - what's stopping IRFU from developing he landsdown site as high yield apartments, pocketing the cash, and moving out to a free stadium in abottstown at taxpayers expense?"


- It would kill them to move from their cosy set-up in D4, and the drinking dens associated with it, much like RTE, who wouldn't dream moving elsewhere and pocketing a fortune from selling their land at Montrose, clearing their debts and maybe making a half-decent drama or comedy and selling it for export. It would kill the IRFU to move out of D4, and they are only contributing a fraction of the cost

Great deal if you can get it and it's the taxpayers who get screwed as usual.


BTW, the earliest this would be ready is 2008/2009. The Height would have to be significantly extended and an unholy row will brek out, so my guess will be 2012 and double the quoted price.
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Postby GregF » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:03 pm

Na ....I bet it won't be built at all.....we are useless in this country....simple as that...we slag off the Brits (and their arrogant and brash personalities), the Germans (and their cool, cold steely personalities) The Americans, the French.....ecetera ....ecetera...but it's official ....Let's say it loud and be proud ....'We are Irish and we are useless'.....(except we make good lackies for the servile plenitudes of other races abroad)
Our Taoiseach sums our nation up with his dithering stuttering nervousness.....the right man for the right job....don't expect anything less of us folks......
Even however if it is built by some some miraculous miracle ...I bet it will take years and years at some astronimical cost ....and I bet it will never ever be fully finished...... and I bet it will look cheap and mediocre.......such is the apathy and amatuerism of all here.
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Postby ew » Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:44 pm

The height problem could be got round by sinking the stadium into ground. Coul;d be a drainage disaster but I think it's been done elsewhere.
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Postby Versonnex » Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:06 pm

It has been done. The Stade de France is built like this to reduce the visual height. The new Wembly pitch will be 4 metres lower than the previous. Imagine this adds somwhat to the costs though
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Postby blue » Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:21 pm

I think the Lansdowne Road is the correct choice.

It has to be in Dublin somewhere as its central, I can't see Ulster rugby fans being to impressed if the stadium was in Cork. If it were built in any other central location like Athlone or Galway getting there by train is a problem.

Lansdowne’s greatest asset is its location. The atmosphere going to and from it is fantastic and it is what so many sporting tourists love about it. Walking from the centre of the city down to the ground is great the streets are alive something I couldn't see happening out at Abbotstown.

All the money its going to cost could not recreate the Lansdowne atmosphere out at Abbotstown. It doesn't matter what it costs its the right choice.
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Postby Rory W » Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:45 pm

As someone who commutes to Lansdowne from Drogheda for games I don't see Niall's point on "D4 bashing" part of the charm of the game is the Lansdowne walk - i.e. the stroll (and its pubs) from the city centre - the fans love it (both Irish and International) and is part of the day out (both soccer and rugby). Niall - the FAI also wanted Lansdowne road so its not just an IRFU thing

Sitting in traffic just to experience the game and no more out at Abbotstown would be no fun at all. The right decision was made - ask any fan.

P.S. RTE does a great job given their limited budget. Look at TV3 - live from the glamourous environs of Ballymount Industrial estate and the poxy job that they do given the (unlimited) pockets of Granada and CanWest.
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Postby GrahamH » Sun Apr 20, 2003 3:54 pm

(Although refuses to broadcast matches in stereo because it costs too much, might change with licence fee increase though)

One of the great aspects about Landsdowne Rd is the great image it conveys internationally of Dublin, located slap bang in the centre of Victoriana, what a beautiful place it is.

Enough of the the D4 begrudgery. A nasty characteristic of this country. Its a stunning part of the city and conveys a great image to attending forgien fans and televisually from blimp cams, or in RTE's case crane cams.

Utterly unrepresentative of the city as a whole of course but sure we're entitled to some rose tinting.
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Postby FIN » Wed May 21, 2003 11:41 am

no offence to cork but it is out of the way for everybody else in the country, even though i wouldn't mind going down, it's a great city. However i personally think it should be in the centre of the country and not in Dublin just because,well sure it has everything else and it's convient for a select number of people. I don't see the problem of having it near Athlone. Out in the country so there is ample parking. Athlone itself is one of the focal point of the government scheme to improve the country, Also i don't accept that it's hard to get to. From where. It's on the main Dublin-Galway route. There is a bus from belfast and while i don't know about the south of the country i'm sure it's not that difficult. The problem is that if you don't use publc transport or organise a coach then drinking a few pints will be gone. so what. Can we not enjoy a football match without drink and then go on the piss afterwards. personally i would use the public transport and go for a few pints. it means drink and for those who drive, parking is cheaper.

Lansdowne road, while a beautiful old stadium is not suitable , why not leave it intact as we in ireland seem to be protecting everything over 20 years old anyway, and keep it for club games, or smaller international games....just an idea...i liked the idea of changing it into apartments... prime land in d4...how much money would they make out of that!!!!!
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Postby bluefoam » Wed May 21, 2003 12:17 pm

Do you really believe that Athlone can handle 50,000 Celtic supporters, like Seville is doing at the moment. Or do you believe that any state or semi-state company can handle the thousands of people traveling to games. I am sorry but they can't do that as it is. The stadium has to be in a major city - ie. Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick... I believe Landsdown is the ideal spot (which is pretty much proven over the years). Anyway you can't just leave Landsdown in its current state for club games, its the oldest rugby stadium in the world and needs upgrading.

And by the way the 'select' number of people living in Dublin, were not selected by anyone. They choose to live there and represent quite a large proportion of the population. ;)
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Postby FIN » Wed May 21, 2003 12:38 pm

i don't think that putting it in dublin would be logical for the rest of the population. as for a backwards view of it...well what's backwards about wanting something away from a city that can't cater for it's own population let alone 65,000+ fans..
athlone is an example because it's in the centre of the country..i would love it in galway because then i woludn't have to travel and could drink myself senseless here afterwards but it's not practical to have it in galway. the government is trying to promote the use of the country's other cities and large towns... Athlone is growing..much i believe is because it's becomming yet another commuter town for dublin. and the advent of a stadium would rapidly increase it's capacity to cater for such crowds.i would suggest that you might take the blinker's off for maybe a minute and think of the country as a whole instead of your little area.
yes lansdowne road does need improvement but really, is that a valid argument for suggesting that the new national stadium be located there????
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Postby bluefoam » Wed May 21, 2003 12:53 pm

Sorry Fin,
Got a bit carried away. Again I will say that the stadium needs to be in a major city. And I don't understand your perspective. I would see Galway as being a much more practical venue than Athlone. It is equally as central as Dublin (geographically anyway) and is capable of providing transoprt, accomodation and enterainment for hoards of travelling fans, as well as offering plenty of tourist attractions for foreign visitors.

However I still believe landsdown is the prime location.
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Postby FIN » Wed May 21, 2003 1:16 pm

while having in the cities would of course be my first choice buying the land in a city would be unbelievable. i actually don't know who owns lansdowne....hmmmm! but i'm thinking that aspect mainly. i do take your point on the transport. mind you all public transport in this country is rubbish so it's going to be a problem. the reason i don't take to the lansdowne theory is that it's land is worth a fortune and if developed could provide a lot of money towards the building of a new one. it's location and the journey to it is excellent but it wouldn't capture my imagination like a brand new stadium in a new location would. i basically want a stadium built and in the shortest time possible. anywhere would do and i know you and most of the country would agree with me there. i am also in favour of the 80,000 .. why should we downgrade...it would pay for itself..our national teams are doing very well and so it would attract that size of a crowd...ahhhhh! good auld ireland....
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Postby Rory W » Wed May 21, 2003 2:39 pm

OK look at a map of Ireland - where do all the rail lines lead to - Dublin. Where does the main roads in the country run to - Dublin. What is the capital of Ireland and has over 1/3 of its population - you've guessed it Dublin. My point is the infrastructure is just not there to support putting the stadium elsewhere in the country.

I suppose that as a rugby fan I have sentimental attachment to Lansdowne - but it really is a very handy place to get to. It takes 20 minutes to walk to from Stephen's Green. As for building apartments etc on its site - does Dublin really need more souless apartments in D4 that you or I can never afford. No I don't think so.

Do we need an 80,000 seat venue at Lansdowne - for maybe Ireland V England once every 2 years. But it's no way near full now for Ireland V Italy (capacity 48,000) another 6 Nations games so I think 65,000 is enough (eircom park was only going to be 45,000 which the FAI were happy with). If you get the chance go to the Millenium Stadium in Cardiff and see what that is like (its practically in the middle of the city) and compare it with out of town stadia elsewhere.

Do you think the GAA would have built their stadium anywhere other than Croke park?

Build it and build it at Lansdowne!
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