South Great George's Street

Re: South Great George's Street

Postby exene1 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:46 pm

The building was also reminding me of the corner building at O'Connell Street / Henry Street.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:35 pm

No Aungier Street thread...this will do.

No doubt GrahamH will soon treat us to a visual feast and overview, but I stood admiring this recently revealed confection on the corner of Aungier Street and York Street yesterday afternoon.

Image

Image
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby exene1 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:29 pm

Nice sunny picture. But when I passed it recently the yellow looked pukey. That might even be a conservation yellow but I still find it pukey. Why does every newly refurbished plastered building have to be painted some tone of yellow?? It's the Irish yellow obsession that's been going on for the last decade or so.





Image

Now, dear me what happened to this fine commercial building on Aungier Street? See it below from Google Streetview. Mind you most of the historic shopfront detail still survives. The surviving right-hand half of the building was recently, or still is being, refurbished.

Also note Aungier Street's provincial-town character in the old photo, haha!


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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:49 pm

Currently seeking planning permission for...a takeaway and replacement of said shopfront. Of an retention permission for all those ongoing works. Ref 2217/12 was invalidated but I understand they are going in again.

Planning permission is sought for the upgrading, refurbishment, extension and re-roofing of the existing two storey over shop building including: A) The conversion of existing retail/Shop unit on ground floor to restaurant/take-away facility including food preparation , storage area to front and rear. B) The conversion of existing residential accommodation at first and second floor to a one-bedroomed apartment (at each level). The work includes the demolition of a rear return at first floor level to facilitate the construction of a new return at first and second floor level and the provision of new recessed private balcony to the rear of each apartment. C) The upgrading and refurbishment of the buildings exterior and street elevation including the replacement of existing shopfront at ground floor level including the provision of external halogen signage lighting,. Please note that some of the above works have commenced on site and this application seeks the retention of such partial works.


http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/r ... ts%3C/a%3E

There is a lot of dodgy dealings going on down on Aungier Street (lets not forget, a street included some of the city's oldest surviving buildings.) The attractiveness of the street to cheap and cheerful new uses is growing as business seek a position close to the main retail core but without the high rental...you can see already a new plant store and 'cafe' half-heartedly inserted into vacant units at 19 and 20. No 21, the most historic house on the street for many, remains a refugee hostel and halfway house, despite its tax status its intact timber interiors. Imagine that, a building dating from 1680, extremely rare, used as a hostel! I understand that No 25...dating from about 1720 was also recently fecked over...perhaps Graham /Gunter will have heard more.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby exene1 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:30 pm

The historic house No 21 Aungier Street initially ran as the planned guesthouse when a lengthy refurbishment finished in the late '90s, then there was bigshit when he, the fella who ran it, turned it into refugee accom about 10 yrs. ago ........... why is it things that work in other cities - ie. historic house as guesthouse - don't work in Dublin?

No. 6 will be back for their takeaway permission soon enough ........ there's another takeaway currently under appeal two doors away at 8 Aungier Street. It's depressing!

But there are a few decent cafes on the other side of Aungier St, and Bald Barista within Avalon Hse - knockout coffee.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby arachne » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:45 pm

I'm kind of chancing my arm but...
I was watching this documentary called A Stranger's Notebook on Dublin (http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=3288112) made in the 1960s, and I saw this building (crap screenshot, sorry: http://s1128.photobucket.com/albums/m49 ... ofPims.png). I don't know where it is, but I was wondering if it could be part of the old Pim's? The documentary did include shots of South Great George's Street, but this one was spliced in with shots of Grafton Street. I know Pim's had more embellishment and a balustrade on the parapet, but can't think where else could be? Does anyone remember if Pim's had its decorative elements removed before it was knocked down?
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:11 pm

I came across this interesting render on http://www.facebook.com/comeheretome Sorry I dont know who to credit it to.

Image

Its an interesting solution to a site that has remained surprisingly unresolved for so long. Another option of course is a plain old simple green space or pocket park. The commercial use of the site however has the advantage of making it better cared for (at least in theory) with attention from the premises owners each day.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby thebig C » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:36 am

Hey Stephen

Good find. I have to say, I was always very surprised that this site was never developed. Given building technology and innovation and some of the structures that were shoe-horned onto miniscule sites during the boom, this should have been a prime candidate for construction. I can only assume that there are complicated ownership issues with the "site"......much like derelict sites on Dean St which remained undeveloped for just such a reason.

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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby davidarthurs » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:44 pm

I'm not so sure the DCC would allow actual public seating ;) They seem to be against it in most areas of the city. And they made a right mess of the square opposite the Olympia.

Really don't like all the brushed steel stuff in that 3D sketch. It looks hideous in most of Dublin.
A nice simple green canvas cover design and seating more appropriate to the rest of the street would be better I think.

I doubt there is even more need for a food outlet either. It's a bit noisy for a long sit down spot. Perhaps changing book stall, or feature with seating.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:14 pm

Well well...perhaps the above render is not so fanciful after all.

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/r ... ts%3C/a%3E

Very welcome to see this patch being redeveloped.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby Bago » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:29 pm

Brushed steel and birch trees strikes again,... and again and again and again....... keep it for eastwall business park, please. Perhaps some warmth and texture, why does everything have to be so bloody contempary, cold and clinical.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:53 pm

Back to that building mentioned above (in April) on Aungier Street. This is the building a couple of months back after its refurbishment

Image

There is a whole back story to this... a tale of works undertaken without permission and retentions sought etc. On top of this is the proposed use of the shop unit as a takeaway - hardly an aspiration for what is one of the most historic streets in the city.

Anyhow "conservation " works undertaken....new render, new quoins and architraves, new repro windows...in fact very little conservation. Still rather than reduce the building to rubble someone obviously felt they were doing the city a favour.

Image

Image

And then this...

Image

To me, this is a perfect illustration of the failure of the planning system in this city. Unable to deal with unauthorised development, unable to guide (and compel) the development to a more appropriate conclusion and unable even to repair the bloody pavement afterwards!
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:20 pm

Meanwhile on (now swanky) Fade Street

Image

Great to see this building back in use and the refurbishment is very well done (albeit a less challenging building than 6 Aungier Street above).

Image

Fade Street has come together very well. Apart from the street lamps (which are a bit to bling) the street looks very smart. Established premises like Hogans and Le Gueilleton have used the public realm refurb as an excuse to smarten up their premises...exactly how it should work.

Image
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby GrahamH » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:14 pm

The exceptionally high standard of fitout of Dylan McGrath's new restaurant, as well as the social and economic life it brings with it, is to be warmly welcomed. I particularly like how the array of sash windows of the former bacon curing factory addresses the pavement at eye level as one walks by. I often feel the two-over-two sash is very under-rated - arguably the most elegant pane formation, not least when segment-headed. Of course this building was earmarked for demolition during the boom, which would have been merrily granted by our city fathers if permission was applied for. Now it's one of its greatest assets, as should be the case with all historic building stock in the city.

I am however disheartened by those hideous awnings, which I knew they'd make a balls of. Firstly, the look proposterous tacked onto a planar facade. I would not have granted permission for awnings on this building, as simply put, they have no reference point. No fascia, no hood moulding and no shopfront frame. They look stupid.

Secondly, an express condition of planning was: The projecting awning shall remain free of any advertisements (including the name of the premises) and the colour of the awning shall be similar and complimentary to the existing awnings on Fade Street. Reason: In the interests of visual and environmental amenity. So both the branding and the colour happily ignored by architects Reddy Associates.

Thirdly, the drawings submitted showed a continuous awning measuring 17.75m in length. The awnings were conditioned: The full length awning at 17.75m shall be omitted from the development and replaced with 3 no. individual awnings, each no greater than 5 metres in length. Given that the new awnings cover precisely the same area as shown in the drawings, something ain't adding up here lads.

Fourthly, the submitted drawings depicted a traditional striped scheme, while that as erected does not, and clashes with the rest of the street.

A shame such a positive development lets itself down at the final hurdle. And will any of the above be followed up on?

As for Aungier Street, it's a scandal what happened to that building, a structure far more significant than meets the eye. But what's the point in wasting breath on these guys, or the system that 'governs' them.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby GrahamH » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:29 pm

Also worth concurring with Stephen's points above about Hogans and Le Gueilleton. The former in particular is dewily, romantically gorgeous since its spruce-up, with fantastically muscular Edwardian cream awnings, always kept immaculately clean, projecting from each side of the building, as well as repainted timberwork in a deep forest green. The icing on the cake is the glittering clear candle bulbs in the array of famous green-tinged lanterns adorning the ground floor piers. Always kept clean, always all working, always an insistence on avoiding nasty CFL tempatations. A complete delight, which when coupled with Le Gueilleton's immacculately mannered seating ensemble next door, creates a concentration of presentation standards unmatched elsewhere in the city.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby gunter » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:47 am

No. 6 Aungier Street is an extremely important house for a couple of reasons.

It was built by Nicholas Carter in late 1724 / early 1725 on the site of an earlier house built as part of the first phase of the Aungier Estate development in the 1660s.

Although later alterations disguised its gabled house origins and made it look like a pair with no. 5, it was actually built by Carter as a pair with no. 7, which has since been completely rebuilt. Carter was a bricklayer by trade, a Quaker, and a significant property developer in his time. Carter is one of the men who shaped the gabled tradition, building houses [usually in pairs] throughout Dublin including on College Green, College Street, Carter's Lane, Dame Street, Cecilia Street etc. This house on Aungier Street, even in its gutted form, is one of only a handful of his structures that survive in any shape or form.

At the very least, the renovation of houses like no. 6 Aungier Street must be preceded by a detailed investigation of its origins. Too much irreplaceable early material is being lost on a daily basis through a lack of very basic research.

Image
5 & 6 Aungier Street in 2009

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a 1960s view of 5 & 6 [posted earlier by exene] showing how the facades of the two houses had been altered to reflect the joining of the two properties into a single commercial premises

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an aerial view from the 1950s that shows that no. 5 was a deeper house than no. 6 and it had conventional mid-wall chimney stacks, but that nos. 6 & 7 were a pair, as indicated in the lease records, each having a single chimney stack that betrays the presence of corner fireplaces, even though the original cruciform roof structures to both Carter houses had been replaced by standard early 19th century double pile lateral roofs
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby GrahamH » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:40 pm

An intriguing triplet of houses that have/had unusually readable later layers. From what I could make out, No. 5 is an entirely new-build house of c.1855, erected and simultaneously amalgamated with No. 6 to present a unfied commercial frontage to the street (and hence the standard front and back room stacks of No. 5). The central stack of No. 6 is still largely concealed from street view.

As No. 6 is not a Protected Structure, the building was gutted in recent works, including the removal of its Doric-balustraded staircase, which curiously appeared to date to around 1740 rather than the 1720s. But it had been interfered with, so may have been deceptive. No. 7 was a wonderfully intact house with a large corner stack on the opposing wall. Most of the internal plaster had been stripped by the late 1990s but the complete carcass was there and in good nick. Another early house to succumb to the spate of 1990s demolitions of this house type all over the city.

The recent works on No. 6 involved the skipping of 1850s sash windows, the stripping off of all the rare Roman cement quoins, window architraves and fragments of friezes, and their collective replacement with ignorantly detailed mock-ups. The splendid 1850s double shopfront - probably the last of its kind in the city - has been contemptuously disregarded in the 'refurbishment', which projecting signage has already been applied to. Also, when the works were underway and the floor of the shop of No. 6 was removed, a clear view was to be had into the basement, where a massive stone basement party wall was revealed: about two feet wide running front to back between No.5 and No. 6 - almost certainly dating to the former house of the 1660s on the site.

No. 6 is still not a Protected Structure, or even a proposed Protected Structure. DCC are refusing to add any Aungier Street buildings onto the Record.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:25 pm

Speaking of Aungier Street...

Dublin Civic Trust are hosting an exhibition in the street as part of Design Week:

http://www.designweek.ie/pivot-dublin-a ... xhibition/

There are also tours being conducted by Dublin City Architects of the street on Monday, Wed and Friday of this week. A good chance to ask where it all went wrong with No. 6?
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby thebig C » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:57 pm

I have great time for the Dublin Civic Trust. The always put forward thoughtful but very practical proposals.

In contrast, An Taisce seem to think the only way to preserve old buildings is to stop new architecture being constructed....
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby exene1 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:11 am

Frankly, with the standard of your commentary on Archiseek, you're not in a position to be proferring approval or disapproval of Dublin Civic Trust and An Taisce. Both have very different roles in the context of the city heritage; the Civic Trust (a body formed out of An Taisce) an architectural heritage awareness body, and An Taisce a vital cog in the development consent process, among other things.

I dunno, maybe you're just a kid. If so, sorry. Go off and work abroad for a few years. Good for getting perspective on things.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:32 pm

I was previously going to offer a more measured response, so I might just side step exene1's comments, which are just a tad intemperate.

I think it is fair to say that Dublin Civic Trust and An Taisce are two different beasts (each with their positive aspects and failings). DCT does not generally involve itself in the development process (and so attract the negative comments that that would entail) and hence it might be looked upon in a more positive light. However it also struggles to achieve any of its aims.

An Taisce are not at all the D4-boogey men and naysayer that they are portrayed as (as a direct result of their statutory role in the development plan process) and its obvious (to me anyhow) that so much of what the organisation argued during the boom rang true. In my experience AT generally argue against development within the context of the Development Plan, they aren't pathologically opposed to new architecture or taller buildings (at least at a corporate level). Do they fuck up? Undoubtedly! But then they are an underfunded, membership-reliant organisation, run on a shoestring and really only in existence due to the selfless work of a number of people - there are bound to be weaknesses there.

But then ask yourself....did hugely wealthy developers fuck up in the boom? Did well funded and resourced and professional design firms/planners/engineers fuck up in the boom? Did the local authority fuck up in the boom?

Anyhow back to Aungier Street, and another curious case on the street to raise with DCC if anyone does the street tour tomorrow is No, 79 who have happily been undertaking work to their premises over the past few months including fencing off the front area (a private landing), repaving and refurbishing the shop front. A lot of the work deviates from a previous grant of permission in 2010 that included a condition requiring revised plans to be submitted before works began http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/r ... ts%3C/a%3E

Now its seems its time to apply for retention (application pending validation). After the works have been completed.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:36 pm

The heat lamps are going in at Fade Street Social...and the tables and chairs are sure to follow in time for Christmas. And sure why not.

Interesting condition on the permission for signage and awnings on the building:

4) The projecting awning shall remain free of any advertisements (including the name of the premises) and the colour of the awning shall be similar and complimentary to the existing awnings on Fade Street. Reason: In the interests of visual and environmental amenity.


Roundly ignored of course. The awning are bright cyan and have the premises name on them.

There is little logic applied to planning decisions concerning shopfronts these days. And as ever those City Council Shopfront Guidelines (2003 and really only relevant to O'Connell Street) remain as elusive as ever.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:15 pm

StephenC wrote:Well well...perhaps the above render is not so fanciful after all.

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/r ... ts%3C/a%3E

Very welcome to see this patch being redeveloped.


A decision is due on this cafe development next week. Its interesting that the owner of the site is confirmed as Dublin City Council. I always wondered who owned the land and why it was continuously left in such a poor state...no I know why :lolno:

Perhaps the cafe scheme will work out but South Great Georges Street is now dominated by restaurants (pricey restaurants at that) and cafes. Its just my opinion but perhaps a very simple parklet with some greenery and a bench and a small statue or fountain would have done just as well. A free place to sit and watch the city go by. Not at all beyond the means of the City Council.
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:01 pm

The latest Dublin Civic Trust study focuses on Aungier Street. The study has been co-written with Dublin City Council Conservation Office and should b published shortly. A lead-up to the report features here http://www.dublinpeople.com/article.php ... t.co&l=100
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Re: South Great George's Street

Postby StephenC » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:30 pm

At long last an application has been lodged to refurbish and bring back to use the former Dockrells store on South Great Georges Street. No details up as yet...you know how you need to wait 4 weeks until DCC scans on the documents...modrin technology and all.

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/r ... ts%3C/a%3E

The development will consist of the upgrade and extension of existing retail shop building over three floors above basement level. The works will comprise of; the upgrade and extension of existing retail shop building over three floors above basement level. The works will comprise; the upgrade of the existing fabric to include; the retention and repair of; existing brick and stone to front, rear and side facades. Existing windows to front, rear and side facades. 6no existing brick and stone chimneys. The reinstatement of two number windows to existing modified picture window to first floor level to Georges Street. The demolition and removal of 600msq of existing retail shop area comprising; the flat roof extension to rear of first floor terrace building including existing lift enclosure. A section of the 3rd floor structure 2no. existing brick chimneys to the main roof to Georges Street. The demolition, replacement and upgrade of existing structure comprising; existing ground floor, first floor and second floor structures. Existing roof structures. Existing roof profile to be reinstated reusing existing slates. The provision of 550msq of new retail shop area comprising new 2 storey above ground floor extension to rear of existing brick terrace (overall height 13.00 metres to parapet, 17.83 metres to lantern) The provision of new stone and glass shop fronts to Stevens Street and South Great Georges Street, detail of signage to form subsequent application. The subdivision of the overall retail premises of 3250msq (2250msq existing and 550 msq new) to provide 3no. retail units comprising; 1no. new retail unit to South Georges Street of 463msq GFA extending to Ground and Basement Floor Levels 1no. new multi storey retail unit of 2192msq GFA to South Great Georges Street and Stevens Street, extending to ground, basement, first and second floor levels, 1no new retail store to Lower Stevens Street of 222msq GFA, including Ground, first and Second floor levels all associated works.
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