Architecture (in words)

Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby KerryBog2 » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:17 pm

What ? Twaddle!
what? wrote: I would go as far as to say sometimes the ideas encompassed in a building are more important that the building itself.

Fine if you don’t have to live/work in it. Even better if you convince some fool to part with money to fund it and your ego. Ever hear of Earlsfort House?
what? wrote: The quality of the building in the flesh/ and whatever written word may be published about it is a matter for individual and we should not exclude “high falutin’” language because it is sometimes misused or intimidates some people.

More poppycock. “High falutin” language is not intimidatory to the average person; it is simply a sign of egocentric and selfish behaviour in the writer. The purpose of language is to communicate. Florid and extravagant prose kills communication, obfuscates the subject and loses the audience.
what? wrote: God forbid that we approach building in any way other than the readily quantifiable aspects of comprehendible function/ price/ image.

Ahem..... How does this sit with your statement
what? wrote: I would go as far as to say sometimes the ideas encompassed in a building are more important that the building itself.

what? wrote: Architecture should aspire to be a cultural act, not the facilitation of client ‘requirements’ and regulatory compliance.

Excuse me, but we are the people paying you 11% + and want you to pass comment and give educated advice on our ideas and perceived needs. If looking for the impossible or undesirable, most clients will listen to reasoned cogent argument. Even surgeons have stopped talking down to patients. Black polos experts do not make.
what? wrote: What made you feel unwelcome? The complex content of some of the lectures? I for one am very pro AAI and grateful that there is an organistaion out there that caters for architects intellects above the level of Duncan Stewart.

What a snotty, condescending remark. Go talk to some intellectual architects: the ones I know would put manners on your lofty notions. I’m no fan of Duncan, but at least, in his favour, he has done much for bringing your profession and its qualities closer to the consumer. Even if his programs have persuaded only a handful of new-homers to use an architect instead of Bungalow Bliss, it is a handful fewer of blots on the landscape.
what? wrote: Ctestiphon – Explain LaTourette in a sentence “ it’s a concrete monastery?” is that sufficient to communicate the ideas latent in a piece of architecture so rich?

Ctestiphon is well able to stand on his own two feet, but I suggest that LaTourette is a syndrome from which you suffer, a tic of spouting your balderdash.
what? wrote: Kerry Bog – your blatant contradictions need no highlighting, I hold your opinion in high contempt.

Cannot find my contradictions. As for you holding them in contempt, I’m not worried and would have you sussed out at first meeting. No briefs from me, mate.
Do I detect a grouch with no work, too much time, whinging that the recession is to blame for its lack and unwilling to face up to reality?


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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby what? » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:44 am

One by one...

1. Still fine even if you do have to live in it. Again the prosaic is not always the aim.
2. The purpose of language is to communicate. It is generally not possible to discuss/ communicate complex ideas through simple language other than by allusion or some other diffuse reference.
3. It sits with comfortable ease.
4. 11%+ ??? You don’t sound like the enlightened kind of character that would lavish that fee on a building design.
5. Duncan Stewart personifies the imaginatively arid, culturally bereft attitude commonly held towards architecture in Ireland. The safe attitude that you can only judge a building on quantifiable aspects such as cost per m2, U-Values and air changes per hour. There is no attempt to look at the qualities the building possesses.
6. Good pun, credit where it’s due.
7. Lamenting the fact that Kenmare has no cultural activities within an argument against a new cultural centre in Kenmare. How insular.
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby spoil_sport » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:23 am

Overly complex language is bad architects compensating for bad architecture (few exceptions of course)

"I would go as far as to say sometimes the ideas encompassed in a building are more important that the building itself."
After 5 years of UCD listening to that old line, I would have to say no... its not, ever.

Architects should never have to big up their buildings, but rather let the "intellectuals" and "critics" read what they want into them.
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby henno » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:02 am

what? wrote:2. The purpose of language is to communicate. It is generally not possible to discuss/ communicate complex ideas through simple language other than by allusion or some other diffuse reference.


Communication must occur in alternation, if the reference of the allusion is not understood by the recipient party, then it is not a communication.... it is fudge and nonsense, and shows a poor choice of the reference in the first place. Prime examples being the prose published in this thread.
There is a trend towards the misuse of vocabulary and syntax in an incredibly poor fashion and in a wholly unnecessary manner to describe 'complex ideas'.
I agree that a certain specific use of language is suitable for use in order to illicit a different way of thinking from clients and users, but there are some very very bad examples out there.

Here is a very good example of an architectural explanation without resorting to unnecessary nonsense...

Ben van Berkel: ‘The structure of the Mercedes-Benz Museum is based on a trefoil. The clover-leaf structure mathematically consists of three overlapping circles, of which the centre becomes a void forming a triangular atrium The semi-circular floors rotate around the central atrium forming horizontal plateaus which alternate between double and single heights. It is spatially complex; you can not see the trefoil from the museum. By using the strong design model we were able to organise ideas of infrastructure, exhibition spaces, programme and even structure. We looked at ideas of how, by moving through the chronologically ordered exhibition spaces from top to bottom, visitors follow the edge line of the building like a time machine. The line you follow becomes a wall then a ceiling and then a space, blurring the distinction between line, surface and volume.’
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby KerryBog2 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:33 pm

what? wrote:One by one...

1. Still fine even if you do have to live in it. Again the prosaic is not always the aim.
2. The purpose of language is to communicate. It is generally not possible to discuss/ communicate complex ideas through simple language other than by allusion or some other diffuse reference.
3. It sits with comfortable ease.
4. 11%+ ??? You don’t sound like the enlightened kind of character that would lavish that fee on a building design.
5. Duncan Stewart personifies the imaginatively arid, culturally bereft attitude commonly held towards architecture in Ireland. The safe attitude that you can only judge a building on quantifiable aspects such as cost per m2, U-Values and air changes per hour. There is no attempt to look at the qualities the building possesses.
6. Good pun, credit where it’s due.
7. Lamenting the fact that Kenmare has no cultural activities within an argument against a new cultural centre in Kenmare. How insular.


It’s a sad day for the architectural profession if a qualified architect states, as you do, that “the ideas encompassed in a building are more important that the building itself.

It is clear that you do not even try to understand. Your sophistry speaks for itself. No point in arguing each point, but just two clarifications: (a) I have paid 11%+ to an architect for my last house - it probably is more than most young archis will earn this year. (b) I never argued against a new cultural centre for Kenmare, what I railed about was the nonsense composed by the designing architect, who included a picture of a few rocks (distant from the proposed site) at low water and referred to “The strong east west orientation of rocks on the site, like a school of whales.” (The correct term, BTW, is a pod of whales.)

There is a little book you should read. Produced by “The Economist,” the online version is available free - http://www.economist.com/research/StyleGuide/
In it there is a reference to Jargon:

Jargon

Avoid it. You may have to think harder if you are not to use jargon, but you can still be precise. Technical terms should be used in their proper context; do not use them out of it. In many instances simple words can do the job of exponential (try fast), interface (frontier or border) and so on. ....
Avoid, above all, the kind of jargon that tries either to dignify nonsense with seriousness


Sadly, McLoughlin did not read it, or he would not have tried to dignify seriousness with nonsense. Furthermore, for all the old guff for e.g. “We have designed the building by discovering a founding narrative for the site and showing how the deeper geological order has allowed a local culture to emerge and how this has, in turn, shaped the wider natural landscape.”
Does he not know that Kenmare is a recent town, founded long after Cromwell? In Irish its name is Neidin, not as one would expect, Ceann Mara.
Perhaps though, he is correct. Maybe the local culture did emerge from "the deeper geological order " and crawled out from under it?

The proposed site, BTW ,currently is a CoCo junkyard for old machinery, tar barrels and road chips.
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby what? » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:04 pm

KerryBog2 wrote:It’s a sad day for the architectural profession if a qualified architect states, as you do, that “the ideas encompassed in a building are more important that the building itself.


I was waiting for someone to take out the "sometimes" from that sentence and quote it back to me.
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby reddy » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:20 pm

Anyone remember this letter? I'm an architect and I'm constantly frustrated by the insular nature of the profession. I think we close ourselves off to so much. As u can tell from the comments above I also think we talk an incredible amount of sh*te!

We don't exist in our own artistic and cultural vacuum and I think we've pushed ourselves to a position of ridicule and irrelevancy by talking and talking.

"Once, a long time ago in the days of yore, I had a friend who was studying architecture to become, presumably, an architect.

This friend introduced me to other friends, who were also studying architecture. Then these friends had other friends who were architects - real architects doing real architecture like designing luxury condos that look a lot like glass dildos. And these real architects knew other real architects and now the only people I know are architects. And they all design glass dildos that I will never work or live in and serve only to obstruct my view of New Jersey.

Do not get me wrong, architects. I like you as a person. I think you are nice, smell good most of the time, and I like your glasses. You have crazy hair, and if you are lucky, most of it is on your head. But I do not care about architecture. It is true. This is what I do care about:

* burritos
* hedgehogs
* coffee

As you can see, architecture is not on the list. I believe that architecture falls somewhere between toenail fungus and invasive colonoscopy in the list of things that interest me.

Perhaps if you didn't talk about it so much, I would be more interested. When you point to a glass cylinder and say proudly, hey my office designed that, I giggle and say it looks like a bong. You turn your head in disgust and shame. You think, obviously she does not understand. What does she know? She is just a writer. She is no architect. She respects vowels, not glass cocks. And then you say now I am designing a lifestyle center, and I ask what is that, and you say it is a place that offers goods and services and retail opportunities and I say you mean like a mall and you say no. It is a lifestyle center. I say it sounds like a mall. I am from the Valley, bitch. I know malls.

Architects, I will not lie, you confuse me. You work sixty, eighty hours a week and yet you are always poor. Why aren't you buying me a drink? Where is your bounty of riches? Maybe you spent it on merlot. Maybe you spent it on hookers and blow. I cannot be sure. It is a mystery. I will leave that to the scientists to figure out.

Architects love to discuss how much sleep they have gotten. One will say how he was at the studio until five in the morning, only to return again two hours later. Then another will say, oh that is nothing. I haven't slept in a week. And then another will say, guess what, I have never slept ever. My dear architects, the measure of how hard you've worked and how much you've accomplished is not related to the number of hours you have not slept. Have you heard of Rem Koolhaas? He is a famous architect. I know this because you tell me he is a famous architect. I hear that Rem Koolhaas is always sleeping. He is, I presume, sleeping right now. And I hear he gets shit done. And I also hear that in a stunning move, he is making a building that looks not like a glass cock, but like a concrete vagina. When you sleep more, you get vagina. You can all take a lesson from Rem Koolhaas.

Life is hard for me, please understand. Architects are an important part of my existence. They call me at eleven at night and say they just got off work, am I hungry? Listen, it is practically midnight. I ate hours ago. So long ago that, in fact, I am hungry again. So yes, I will go. Then I will go and there will be other architects talking about AutoCAD shortcuts and something about electric panels and can you believe that is all I did today, what a drag. I look around the table at the poor, tired, and hungry, and think to myself, I have but only one bullet left in the gun. Who will I choose?

I have a friend who is a doctor. He gives me drugs. I enjoy them. I have a friend who is a lawyer. He helped me sue my landlord. My architect friends have given me nothing. No drugs, no medical advice, and they don’t know how to spell subpoena. One architect friend figured out that my apartment was one hundred and eighty seven square feet. That was nice. Thanks for that.

I suppose one could ask what someone like me brings to architects like yourselves. I bring cheer. I yell at architects when they start talking about architecture. I force them to discuss far more interesting topics, like turkey eggs. Why do we eat chicken eggs, but not turkey eggs? They are bigger. And people really like turkey. See? I am not afraid to ask the tough questions.

So, dear architects, I will stick around, for only a little while. I hope that one day some of you will become doctors and lawyers or will figure out my taxes. And we will laugh at the days when you spent the entire evening talking about some European you've never met who designed a building you will never see because you are too busy working on something that will never get built. But even if that day doesn't arrive, give me a call anyway, I am free.

Yours truly,
Annie Choi"


http://www.butterpaper.com/vanilla/comments.php?DiscussionID=1095
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:35 pm

I realise the conversation has moved on a bit, but I just wanted to answer this:

what? wrote:Ctestiphon – Explain LaTourette in a sentence “ it’s a concrete monastery?” is that sufficient to communicate the ideas latent in a piece of architecture so rich?


Of course it's not sufficient. But the point isn't brevity, it's clarity. It's possible to describe the building in a sentence, but that obviously wouldn't do it justice. And too few words can be as much a problem as too many words or over-contrived language. David Watkin (whatever you might think of the architecture that he advocates) is a model of comprehensibility in writing on architectural history; Hugh Pearman has a style I admire among current journalists (and I'm not just saying that because he might be lurking here). Much of the writing in contemporary journals seems to be heavy on zeitgeisty buzzwords and quasi-technical terms, which I often suspect is a cover for an inability to communicate ideas in simple terms. Or, put another way, they are given to sesquipedalian excesses at the expense of plain speaking.

gunter wrote:edit: sorry ctestiphon, I think -what?- addressed that question to you!


KerryBog2 wrote:Ctestiphon is well able to stand on his own two feet


Thanks lads. It's nice to know you've got my back, though!

PS what?- As I've noted before, you and I have some different views on architecture in general (I think I referred to you recently as an advocate of 'Architecture with a big A'). Whilst I do appreciate where you're coming from on this, I think you're slightly getting the wrong end of the stick. Nobody is arguing that buildings should be dumbed down (I don't think they are, anyway); we're just saying that the writing (description, explanation, analysis) needn't be complex in talking about a complex structure, or even a complex idea behind a simple structure.

(Perhaps a thought for another day- if 'sometimes the ideas encompassed in a building are more important that the building itself', is it necessary for the building to be built, or would it be sufficient for it to exist as a concept? Some of the best buildings in the world never got off the page.)
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby KerryBog2 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:29 pm

ctesiphon wrote:........ to sesquipedalian excesses at the expense of plain speaking.


Heck ctesiphon, you're at risk of being too loquacious by half!;)
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby GrahamH » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:58 pm

I note what?'s ancestors of the 18th century harboured a similar frustration:

"If one looks at the lovely buildings here which that man built, and sees how they have already been disfigured by the narrow and dirty deeds of men, how these lay-outs were often beyond the powers of the clients, and how little these valuable monuments to a great mind fit in with the lives of these others, then it occurs to one that it is like this in other things also: for one gains little gratitude from people, if one increases their inner needs, gives them great ideas about themselves and wants to make them feel the marvellousness of a true, noble existence... How Palladio’s basilica looks, set right next to an old fortress-like building littered with irregular windows, which the architect will certainly have imagined away along with the tower, can hardly be expressed, and I have to pull myself together in an extraordinary manner: for here also I unfortunately find precisely what I run away from and what I look for right next to each other.”

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
19th September 1786
Vicenza


Image
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby gunter » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:48 pm

'Pecha Kucha' at 7pm this evening in the Sugarclub, is that worth going to, or not?

I don't like the sounds of a fiver in! not unless it's some kind of architectural karaoke night.

''We feel it is important for us to highlight our creative culture, develop it and then share it with others''. Nathallie Weadick of the Irish Architecture Foundation.

On the other hand, if it's as lively as their discussion boards, we could be in for a very restful evening :rolleyes:
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby GrahamH » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:03 pm

Is there free wine?
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby trace » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:09 pm

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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby missarchi » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:42 pm

maybe they can fly in some intercontinentals to liven things up;)
Might have a presentation next time... :D
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby GrahamH » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:21 pm

Now that I'd pay to see.

A packed house this evening, with the aisles lined with latecomers. Rarely does one encounter such a concentration of young beards and thick-rimmed spectacles - many architects really do live up to the stereotype. The proliferation of 20/30-something women also spoke volumes about how the profession has changed here over the past decade.

Image

Ali Grehan, Dublin City Architect, spoke eloquently as ever about Dublin City Council's intention to register Dublin in contention for World Design Capital 2014. As distant, and perhaps as far-fetched, as it may sound, I think it is achievable if we got our act together. As the concept dictates:

"A World Design Capital is not a status designator, rather a state of being. It is defined by the commitment that a city has made to use design to reinvent itself. Sustainable results or a commitment to develop the city are visible and a changing attitude is detectable. As such, the World Design Capital designation is awarded to recognise innovative cities that have most effectively and, more importantly, creatively, used design as a tool for progress."

i.e. it is something that does not necessarily demand large-scale expressions - indeed design on the small scale is almost preferable: tying in with Grehan's stated vision of 'excellence in the ordinary'. It would require major leaps however. And realistically, in an area that is very challenging, the very place many cities would probably find the easiest to effect real change from - the local authority.

She also spoke of a variety of community projects. A picture that got one of the biggest responses was a fanned antique granite pavement infilled with tarrnac ;)
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby missarchi » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:33 am

sporting a new hair style? I'm jealous...
Where are the freestylers?
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:32 pm

From an AAI /UCC lecture "Stasus will be discussing their recent work including Animate Landscapes from the forthcoming Pamphlet Architecture 32: Resilience. The project for an experimental film institute, mediates between a postindustrial site in Warsaw and the Edinburgh studio in which it was developed. By identifying, interrogating and ultimately reinforcing the physical and immaterial conditions of both landscape and studio, the project generates a new space from an attention to remnants, silence and the complex temporality of anachronistic things."
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby StephenC » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:22 am

Now I know why I'm a planner...
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby onq » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:31 am

Translates as:

"Moody, Scottish git without a decent concept is working on a project that falls between two stools."
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby missarchi » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:58 am

you guys are hilarious!!!
It seems like the black crow is watching...
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:57 pm

ssshhhh you, i'm interrogating silence
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby gunter » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:33 am

Image

The RIAI has a new president in Michelle Fagan and she’s going to fix you with her steely gaze from the foot of the president’s column for the next 12 issues, as if we weren’t feeling a cold chill already.

Anyone who slept through the presidency of Paul Keogh is likely to wake with a jolt.

‘The RIAI . . . doesn’t shirk any problem or issue . . .’
‘The RIAI is the registration body’.
‘The RIAI needs to be strong to act . . . as an advocate and protector of architecture, and to do this we need the support of the entire profession.’
‘. . . still greater effort is required to acquaint the members and the public with what is happening so that we can strengthen the RIAI’s hand and relevance.’


Sit up straight and stop wallowing in self pity. The comparison is made with the medical and legal professions. ‘They are considered essential, we are not, why not?’

Answering her own question: ‘There is a perception that architects are a luxury and we are associated with spending big money, we are seen by the public as being a little remote.’

‘Communication is more important than ever but it is a two-way process, we have to not just communicate with the members and the public, we also have to listen.’

The first listening posts will be set up outside Homebase and B+Q where, at the first sign of a uninformed member of the public venturing in to buy tiles for a bathroom revamp, a sleeper cell will be activated and a jaunty architectural GP dispatched to confront the errand home owner on the design implications of this up-planned move.

‘The business of architecture is dependant on the strength of the culture of architecture.’

The culture of architecture means business.
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby teak » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:37 pm

If architects become a bit more business-oriented then that's no bad thing, I reckon.
They have to be able to see how and where the impact of their services brings higher value to their clients if they want to score with those clients.

But the thing I'd like to see the new Prez do - as I'd like all professional bodies do - is to move away from leadership of the profession by the over-50s.
We're in the 21st century, the epoch characterised not simply by change but rather by the increasingly rapid pace of change. Decisions made - or left unmade - by the old farts within sight of the pension line are the stuff that the younger members must live with for their full careers.
It's time that all professions reformed the degree of involvement of their full membership (and I think apprentices or students ought be involved here too) in all matters affecting their future working life.
Way I see it, no one at that age of their life has the stomach for major changes.
And those oul fellas with a few professional killings to their name are even more mellow by then.
Yet these are the people charged with getting their profession in tune with the needs of society and the economy into the future . . . Bonkers.
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby gunter » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:58 am

Alan Mee on magic mushrooms is the highlight of this month's ARCHITECTURE IRELAND.

'Urban Agenda Backstory' is a splendidly hallucinogenic trip through the recent architectural history that we could have had if Haughey had seized power and married Zaha Hadid, and then died and left everything to An Taisce.

All you can do now is curse reality.
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Re: Architecture (in words)

Postby missarchi » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:07 am

any visuals? have not been able to log in...
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