Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby gintyc » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:16 am

FXR wrote:
gintyc wrote: I'll make this clear: There is NO law stopping cyclist from using polls, trees or posts as long as they are not blocking footpaths.


If you’d be so good gintyc, can you point out exactly where in the video Dublin’s Bicycle Clutter it says “bicycles are illegally locked to poles etc”. Where and at what point and can you quote the statement as it appears in the video.


I never said it appears in your videos, I was replying to your post.

FXR wrote:Also since you know the law on this issue can you provide the reference to the law that states specifically that bicycles can be locked to poles, trees and posts as long as they are not blocking footpaths?


That's generally not the way the law works. There's nowhere in legislation that says specifically says you can or cannot lock bikes to polls.

Again: It's a non-issue.


gunter wrote:
Frank Taylor wrote:'. . . . . there are health benefits [ when I ride my bike ] . . . .'


There are health benefits, provided you don't get creamed by a truck turning left


That's like saying walking is good for you providing you don't get knocked down crossing the road. The small chance of getting knock crossing a road is not a reason not to walk. Nor is the small chance of getting hit by a truck -- just like crossing the road you act carefully.


FXR wrote:
Frank Taylor wrote: Garda traffic corps would be wrong to prioritise low risk over high risk activities.


Based on talking to a few dozen Gardai this is the situation...


Asking all the different gardai you meet on the street about anything they'd likely have many different views. Asking random, rank and file gardai or other non-traffic corps officers about traffic issues is about as much value as a random newspaper voxpop -- that is to say there is very little value.

FXR wrote:for a Garda to prosecute a cyclists for a minor offence he would have to issue a summons. This would require a day in court. There is also problem of actually obtaining a valid ID at the time of the offence or failing that requiring a cyclists to accompany the Garda to the station. In other words the situation as it stands is a farce. Who on earth would want the entire dwindling Garda force tied up court dealing with cyclists.


The important bit here is “minor offence” – it’s minor. If a garda wants to tackle a minor offence he or she already has a number of options such as warning somebody or issuing them with an ASBO.

As for “obtaining a valid ID” – that’s a non-issue. The problem is the same for a normal pedestrians or drunks late on a Friday night. Anyway, any decent garda (which most of them are) will have a good idea if they are being told the truth or being fed a pack of lies.

As already said: The reason there’s little enforcement of traffic laws regarding cycling is that most of them are minor, and it’s not just cyclists: There’s also little enforcement pedestrians breaking lights and things like motorists speeding in the city centre, motorists parking on footpaths or cycle lanes, and the problems mostly at rush hour of motorists blocking pedestrian crossings, advance stop lines for cyclists and junctions in general. Sadly, in the grand scale of things that the Traffic Corps has to handle, these things are mostly minor to them.


FXR wrote:Controlling cyclists in regard to cycling in pedestrian areas and on footpaths should be in the hands of cycle wardens or it should just be legalised.


Are we also going to have pedestrian wardens to find pedestrian who illegally cross at lights? Why are you obsessed with cyclists?

I've ended up with a minor but recurring injury because of a pedestrian illegally crossing at lights near the Spire. It was witnessed by a garda and she gave him an ASBO -- I tried to explain myself for hitting him, she stopped me and said the pedestrian was totally in the wrong.

When are you going to make videos of pedestrians breaking lights?


FXR wrote:The figure last quoted in the Independent for people cycling into Dublin was 20,000 per day. Given the continuing increase in cyclists combined with the badly maintained roads, badly designed or absent cycle lanes and total lack of regulation and training do you think it's more likely that one or more cyclists are going to be killed or injured?


This may sound strange but: Less and less people are likely to be killed or injured. As I've already said, the numbers of people cycling has been growing for years now and the numbers killed and injured is in decline.

As per this peer-reviewed paper (one of many on this subject) in the BMJ's Injury Prevention journal:

Results: The likelihood that a given person walking or bicycling will be struck by a motorist varies inversely with the amount of walking or bicycling. This pattern is consistent across communities of varying size, from specific intersections to cities and countries, and across time periods.

Discussion: This result is unexpected. Since it is unlikely that the people walking and bicycling become more cautious if their numbers are larger, it indicates that the behavior of motorists controls the likelihood of collisions with people walking and bicycling. It appears that motorists adjust their behavior in the presence of people walking and bicycling. There is an urgent need for further exploration of the human factors controlling motorist behavior in the presence of people walking and bicycling.

Conclusion: A motorist is less likely to collide with a person walking and bicycling if more people walk or bicycle. Policies that increase the numbers of people walking and bicycling appear to be an effective route to improving the safety of people walking and bicycling.

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/9/3/205.abstract


Also: There's already far more than 20,000 cyclists in Dublin per day, that figure you mention is likely only those at peek morning times. There's 5,000+ trips on Dublin Bikes per day alone.


FXR wrote:I still think, as unlikely as it seems, that the only way cyclists behaviour will change is for cyclist to take it upon themselves to make it happen. In this country I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the powers that be to catch up.


You seem to think we’re all friends and it’s all one big club. We don’t all know each other and it’s not one big club. Being a cyclist is just like being a pedestrian or motorist, people are not responsible for the behaviour of others.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby missarchi » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:44 am

FXR would you rather be hit by a tram bus car or bicycle?

Cyclist dies after Dublin city crash
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing63.html

Life sentence?

A woman has been struck and killed by a tram on St Kilda Road this morning.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby goneill » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:13 am

Dublin City Council installed a number of D shaped loops on signposts aroundlWicklow Street/Drury Street, to encourage people to lock their bikes to them.
In Cambridge bicycles and pedestrian seem to be able to share surfaces without apparent problems and there are millions of bikes strewn everywhere without detracting from the charm of the place.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:32 pm

This is a great idea


Bike-Part Vending Machine Arrives in Minneapolis

Minneapolis was named the country's number one city for biking last year by Bicycling magazine, but the city's bike community isn't resting on its laurels. Looking to make Minneapolis even more welcoming to cyclists, local entrepreneurs recently opened the city's first self-service bicycle repair kiosk, to serve the flat tubes and busted gears of the thousands of cyclists who travel Minneapolis's bike paths each week. The kiosk, called Bike Fixtation, offers basic bike tools, a repair stand, and a vending machine full of useful goodies, including tubes, lights, patch kits, and snacks

http://www.good.is/post/minneapolis-get ... air-kiosk/
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby davidarthurs » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:23 pm

Cyclist dies after Dublin city crash
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing63.html


Bloody typical. Westmoreland street strikes again. Widest street in in the country and they can't even manage to put a cycle lane in it. I hope a ghost bike will be in place. RIP.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby missarchi » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:53 pm

who has control of the streets DCC or the national roads authority?
How can DCC say they are planners of dublin when they dont control the roads?
What kind of payouts do the family get from the roads authority in some western countries 5 million might be reasonable.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:05 am

davidarthurs wrote:
Cyclist dies after Dublin city crash
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing63.html


Bloody typical. Westmoreland street strikes again. Widest street in in the country and they can't even manage to put a cycle lane in it. I hope a ghost bike will be in place. RIP.


typical piss poor irish times reporting.

1. what happened?
2. cyclist drunk?
3. cyclist wearing high vis?
4. cyclist with lights on bike?
5. taxi driver drunk?
6. taxi driver on a 20 hour shift?

no details no nothing etc etc etc

the thing that always amazes me in ireland is that there is always great outrage about deaths on the road but never, ever, are we told that the people died under the influence of drink or drugs or the inability to drive on the correct side of the road etc etc
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby missarchi » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:20 am

mr environment has nothing to say? It's just like college 21?
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:54 am

Dublin's bicycle ghost riders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQSGIU46cBE
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:00 pm

davidarthurs wrote:
Cyclist dies after Dublin city crash
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing63.html


Bloody typical. Westmoreland street strikes again. Widest street in in the country and they can't even manage to put a cycle lane in it. I hope a ghost bike will be in place. RIP.


I've spoken to a motorist who arrived on the scene only a few cars back from the fatal accident. According to him the cyclists was on a DCC rental bike. As far as he could make out there were three people on DCC bikes. I'm not sure if that was in any of the newspaper reports. You can see cyclists taking the most stupid risks on Westmoreland street on any day of the week.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby gintyc » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:37 pm

FXR wrote:
davidarthurs wrote:
Cyclist dies after Dublin city crash
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing63.html


Bloody typical. Westmoreland street strikes again. Widest street in in the country and they can't even manage to put a cycle lane in it. I hope a ghost bike will be in place. RIP.


I've spoken to a motorist who arrived on the scene only a few cars back from the fatal accident. According to him the cyclists was on a DCC rental bike. As far as he could make out there were three people on DCC bikes. I'm not sure if that was in any of the newspaper reports. You can see cyclists taking the most stupid risks on Westmoreland street on any day of the week.


Frank, is there any line you won't cross in your anger against cyclists?

Just because he was a cyclists does that stop you from maintaining decency and even a little respect for the dead person and their family?

On that streets you can also see drivers driving recklessly around cyclists every day of the week, but speculation one way or another isn't helpful to anybody. You could at least wait for the results of the inquest before trying to assign blame.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:30 pm

gintyc wrote:
Frank, is there any line you won't cross in your anger against cyclists?

Just because he was a cyclists does that stop you from maintaining decency and even a little respect for the dead person and their family?

On that streets you can also see drivers driving recklessly around cyclists every day of the week, but speculation one way or another isn't helpful to anybody. You could at least wait for the results of the inquest before trying to assign blame.


Well gee whiz you seem to have missed the post before mine which, among a list of possibilities, speculated on whether the cyclists might have been drunk. Was your high horse having a day off when you read that one? If you actually read what I wrote you'd be able to figure out I didn't actually assign any blame to anyone involved.

You also missed the post which actually shows cyclists doing one of the most stupid things you can do on a bicycle filmed on Westmoreland St. You don't have any comment on that one? Why not? Is reality a bit inconvenient when it comes to the reckless behaviour of cyclists as shown in the video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQSGIU46cBE
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby gintyc » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:58 pm

Frank, take a bit of responsibly for your own posts. You're linking "cyclists taking the most stupid risks on Westmoreland street on any day of the week" to the death of one cyclist when you don't know what or who was to blame.

The other poster seems to be mainly criticising the lack of detail reported, but yes, I suppose he's wrong too. Also, as you said "a list of possibilities" -- not just pointing to one which you were doing.

Unlike your nonsense about bicycle clutter, on cyclists not using lights and many of them foolishly thinking high-vis is as good -- I 100% agree with you. Gardai should regularly clamp down on cyclists without lights and direct them to walk home and anybody caught not walking should have their bikes taken off them until they turn up at a station with lights. I also think it should be mandatory to have to sell lights with bicycles.

BTW I also generally agree with you about cyclists on footpaths -- it's very annoying and even more so when I have my baby with me. But you tend to go overboard.

But linking other cyclists' actions to the death of one is wrong. A bit of respect and perspective and a bit less blind anger would go a long way.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:30 pm

gintyc wrote:Frank, take a bit of responsibly for your own posts. You're linking "cyclists taking the most stupid risks on Westmoreland street on any day of the week" to the death of one cyclist when you don't know what or who was to blame.

The other poster seems to be mainly criticising the lack of detail reported, but yes, I suppose he's wrong too. Also, as you said "a list of possibilities" -- not just pointing to one which you were doing.

Unlike your nonsense about bicycle clutter, on cyclists not using lights and many of them foolishly thinking high-vis is as good -- I 100% agree with you. Gardai should regularly clamp down on cyclists without lights and direct them to walk home and anybody caught not walking should have their bikes taken off them until they turn up at a station with lights. I also think it should be mandatory to have to sell lights with bicycles.

BTW I also generally agree with you about cyclists on footpaths -- it's very annoying and even more so when I have my baby with me. But you tend to go overboard.

But linking other cyclists' actions to the death of one is wrong. A bit of respect and perspective and a bit less blind anger would go a long way.


The fact is all the videos taken together show that there is no regulation of cycling in Ireland neither do cyclists take any responsibility for themselves or have any regard for other road users or pedestrians.


I've looked at DCC rental bikes. On the handlebar surround of the bike there is a notice in small print that says "you must obey the rules of he road". Anyone can get on a bike without the merest notion of the rules of the road or any idea of how traffic behaves. It's not much use giving people notice that they should obey rules that they are not obliged to know in the first place. It would cost next to nothing to have a flyer or a notice at each station outlining what behaviour is undesirable and even listing fines:fine for cycling on a footpath €140.

The Gardai are not the solution. In fact any of the behaviour shown in the videos is common among bicycle Gardai as well. It's also a mistake (which I made myself) to assume that Gardai on bicycles are there to police cyclists. They don't seem to thing so. In the video Ghosts Riders a member of one of the cycling groups has pointed out that the Garda on the bike legally should have had the strobe light attached to the front of his bike and not to his jacket.

Cycling should be taken out of the hands of the Gardai when it comes to all surfaces off road. DCC should appoint cycle wardens with the power to issue on the spot fines and to educate cyclists. The crappy joke that pass for cycle lanes should be policed. In the video you'll notice the Garda on the bike did not actually fine or move the illegally parked taxi in Westmoreland St. You'll also notice earlier in the video the illegally parked taxi's on Lwr O'Connell street. In two years I've yet to see even one of them get a fine or even be moved on. They're there every night. As I've said before this all comes back down to the shower who are supposed to be running the city. In the meantime the situation would improve if cyclists took responsibility for themselves and cycling bodies and lobby groups spent some time focusing on how cyclists behave instead of just pouring more and more onto the roads and footpaths.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby Frank Taylor » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:43 pm

gintyc wrote:...
Frank, is there any line you won't cross in your anger against cyclists?
you are confusing FXR with me. Unless FXR is also a Frank.


FXR: your ire might be better directed towards taxi drivers who endanger other peoples lives rather than just their own.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:14 pm

Frank Taylor wrote:
gintyc wrote:...
Frank, is there any line you won't cross in your anger against cyclists?
you are confusing FXR with me. Unless FXR is also a Frank.


FXR: your ire might be better directed towards taxi drivers who endanger other peoples lives rather than just their own.


Cyclists are endangering other peoples lives as well as their own. Taxi's are subject to far more regulation (though not enough) than cyclists. A three year old on a pedestrian street is at risk of serious injury from cyclists who seem to think they can go anywhere the feel like. Blind people on footpaths shouldn't have to have the additional hazard of cyclists to deal with either. Pedestrian bridges are for pedestrians. A motorist travelling legally on a one way street who has the mis-fortune of some idiot going the wrong way end up splashing their brains across the windscreen won't be unaffected by it. Cyclists in Dublin overwhelmingly obey no laws, no rules or regulations and have no regard for anyone else. That's what happens when the people supposedly running the city don't do their job.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby davidarthurs » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:22 pm

Cyclists in Dublin overwhelmingly obey no laws, no rules or regulations and have no regard for anyone else.


Absolute nonsense. The vast majority of cyclists obey the rules of the road and are very responsible.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby spoil_sport » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:00 pm

FXR,

This "cyclists are the enemy" attitude is getting old and very tiresome.

I honestly can't think of ever hearing of any incident of a cyclist knocking down a 3 year old child or a blind person on a footpath. That being said I have personally encountered plenty of pedestrians who, just because they don't hear a car coming, don't bother to look and just step out to cross the road, which could be far more damaging to an on-coming cyclist than the pedestrian. I've also noticed that many drivers (not just professional ones) seem to regard cyclists, no matter how fast they are going, as a gap in traffic, and a good opportunity to pull out.

Your argument is becoming more ridiculous and insulting to the majority of responsible cyclists.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby gintyc » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:12 pm

Frank Taylor wrote:
gintyc wrote:...
Frank, is there any line you won't cross in your anger against cyclists?
you are confusing FXR with me. Unless FXR is also a Frank.


He is also a Frank. I'll call him by his user name to stop any confusion...

FXR wrote:Cyclists are endangering other peoples lives as well as their own. Taxi's are subject to far more regulation (though not enough) than cyclists.


If "not enough" is being done about taxi drivers misbehaving, why are you not suggesting they should have wardens to ticket them?

FXR wrote:Cyclists in Dublin overwhelmingly obey no laws, no rules or regulations and have no regard for anyone else.


No more than pedestrians. See this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j66ewsKIhuU

Or motorists:

Study: More than 90% of drivers break speed limits - http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/stud ... z1RnyQzJx4

More than half of motorists admit to speeding regularly - http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/more ... z1RnyjCzsh

53.8% of motorists surveyed admitted to using a handheld mobile phones - http://blog.aaireland.ie/index.php/2011 ... ile-phones

40.7% of those surveyed said they text while driving (same as last link)

What new city-centre speed limit? 97% of motorists ignore traffic law - http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2 ... torists-i/


FXR wrote:That's what happens when the people supposedly running the city don't do their job.
[/quote]

No mater how much you'd like to think otherwise, the city council are not responsible for road traffic law (besides parking), it's up to the Gardai and only them.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:02 pm

davidarthurs wrote:
Absolute nonsense. The vast majority of cyclists obey the rules of the road and are very responsible.


Fair play for tying to inject some humour into the discussion with a bit of irony.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:06 pm

What pedestrians/taxi drivers/shoplifters or anyone else does is irrelevant. If a barrister tried that defence in court he'd be laughed out of it. The fact is cyclists in Dublin continually disregard the traffic laws, use pedestrianised areas, footpaths and lock their bikes to anything and everything. The chances of a cyclist being fined or summonsed are practically nil. A citizen buying a Euro millions ticket on a Friday has more chance of winning than a cyclists has of being fined for breaking the law.

I have a list of videos that back this up: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE163314E30669D7B On top of that I'm in the centre of the city every day of the week from one side to the other. Anyone can see cyclists breaking every law there is, every day. If anyone wants to provide any evidence to the contrary then put it up. It's nonsensical to pretend that cyclists are not breaking the law, invading pedestrian spaces and endangering themselves and others all day every day in Dublin city. Nobody's running the show. Illegal taxi ranks, parking in bicycle lanes, etc etc are all just sympthoms of the same problem. The me, me, me attitude displayed by cyclists rather than facing reality and taking responsibility for their own actions just adds to the problem.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:10 pm

And as if there wasn't enough evidence a friend of mine shot this last night. She was crossing O'Connell street and stalled for a few minutes. What is in the video took about 7 minutes in real time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7yKp5MG1Zg
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby gintyc » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:30 pm

FXR wrote:What pedestrians/taxi drivers/shoplifters or anyone else does is irrelevant. If a barrister tried that defence in court he'd be laughed out of it.


But it's not irrelevant. We’re not in court and I’m not defending the law-breaking cyclists – as I said already they should be stopped by the Gardai and their bikes should be taken off them if they try to get back on them in the dark without lights.

You’re proposing wardens to fine cyclists. It would be a good idea to also look at fines for pedestrians and others at the same time. Far more pedestrians break the law every day – it’s best to put resources into fixing the largest problem first and -- by your mesures -- that’s pedestrians.

And you your self said in your post above that the problems are linked – You said: “Illegal taxi ranks, parking in bicycle lanes, etc etc are all just sympthoms of the same problem.”


FXR wrote:The fact is cyclists in Dublin continually disregard the traffic laws, use pedestrianised areas, footpaths and lock their bikes to anything and everything.


Some cyclists do, others don’t. If you want to state otherwise I’ll take it that you’re accusing me of breaking the law.

And – as you’ve already been told – there’s no law stopping cyclists from locking their bikes to sign poll, lamps, trees etc.


FXR wrote:The me, me, me attitude displayed by cyclists rather than facing reality and taking responsibility for their own actions just adds to the problem.


I can’t wait until law breaking cyclists take responsibility for their actions…. I’m also waiting for pedestrians and motorists to do the same.


FXR wrote:And as if there wasn't enough evidence a friend of mine shot this last night. She was crossing O'Connell street and stalled for a few minutes. What is in the video took about 7 minutes in real time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7yKp5MG1Zg


But it’s not 7mins in real time – it’s an edited video. And did you spot all the j-walking pedestrians???!!!

Anyway, you don’t need more “evidence” – everybody can agree that many cyclists break the law – just like many pedestrians and motorists do the same. There’s a need for better enforcement for all. You're just obsesed with one for some unknown reason.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:29 pm

Not it's not "many" cyclists who break the law it's the vast majority of cyclists who break the law. I've provided the evidence to prove it.

If you can provide evidence to the contrary then do it. In other words put up or shut up.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:51 pm

gintyc wrote:
FXR wrote:Anyway, you don’t need more “evidence” – everybody can agree that many cyclists break the law – just like many pedestrians and motorists do the same. There’s a need for better enforcement for all. You're just obsesed with one for some unknown reason.


gityc - the excuse that pedestrians and motorists do it too so that's ok is lame in the extreme.

This is about the behaviour of cyclists - don't try to water it down

it's pretty simple - if you want to put your side forward post a 5 minute video of one spot in dublin showing how cyclists obey the rules of the road. i.e. do exactly the opposite of FXR.

In fact - as you're so confident - post an unedited one and we'll be really impressed.
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