Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby missarchi » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:02 am

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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:05 pm

GrahamH wrote:FXR, you do yourself a disservice in highlighting perfectly valid issues by taking an entrenched position. To generalise about ‘cyclists’, and to tiresomely pitch them in a battle against 'motorists', does nothing for either perceived ‘side’ and gets people’s backs up.


Sorry but I'm too short on time at the moment to go through your whole post point by point. The figure for the cost of a cycle lane comes from a Sunday Times article dated 29/05/2011 page 8.

Firstly there is a cycling lobby.

This page of the Dublin Cycling Campaign website is called "Lobby".
http://www.dublincycling.com/node/335


I didn't set out to pitch motorists against cyclists. I took the first set of photos at the Millennium Bridge. The first people I contacted were the Dublin Cycling Campaign. Shortly after that I also posted a link on cycling.ie

The initial possibility was that there would be three stages;
1. What are cyclists doing?
2. Why are they doing it?
3. What are the possible solutions if any?

It never got that far. As I collected records of different aspects of cyclists behaviour the emails stopped getting replies. I'd even suggested having a discussion between cycling interests in a cycling forum but that never happened. I originally intended to keep the discussion as much as possible "within" cycling. I didn't expect that there was going to be any other solution unless it comes from cyclists taking responsibility for their own behaviour and their own safety. I have dated emails that back this up.

Then came the article in the Sunday Times. That came about because one Sunday Times journalist asked to interview me about a completely different subject. During the interview cycling came up since they were continually passing us on the footpath. That led to the second journalist writing the article even though he'd only spoken to me once on the phone about doing a piece for the ST. This week I turned down Newstalks Tom Dunne show. Then I turned down another radio show. Yesterday after the Joe Duffy show rang twice I declined to go on that afternoon and I declined to go on today as well. The bad mannered pompous researcher who I spoke to didn't want to hear anything about doing a balanced program or who should be involved. I haven't heard the show yet but I got several phone calls today to tell me it was on. I've a funny feeling I know what to expect. Who really needs to be hauled into the spotlight here is Dublin City Council who are being paid to run this city. Cyclists, motorists and pedestrians, consistent with human nature, will do whatever they can get away with which is what you see on the streets of Dublin everyday.

The reason I took photos was to show what was actually happening rather than the usual anecdotal evidence that most of the motorist v cyclist discussions surf on.

I had started to take photos of places that might be dangerous for bike riders but I needed cyclists to point them out. I couldn't get that information. I did photograph a few places I thought are dangerous: Andrew St for example has a cycle lane which looks like it was planned by a lunatic.

I also photographed cars breaking lights which you can see here http://photobucket.com/Red_light_cars
This is a fact: in Dublin during heavy traffic at least one car will break the red light after amber on almost every occasion. Cyclists on the other hand will break the red light after traffic has stopped if they feel they can.

The statement "most cyclists will go from A to B by the most convenient route and ignore all rules and regulations" can be easily proven by putting a video camera anywhere in the city centre on any day. It's just a fact.

In the last few days I've been contacted by a television station. I have a list of locations and the number of cyclists breaking the law for each time period which they've been sent based on each set of photos. I sent it to the TV station. If anyone wants me to post it I will and they can interpret it any way they want. All of the times and dates are backed up by photographs.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby davidarthurs » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:29 am

It's pretty simple - If you want to find out what areas of Dublin are dangerous for cycling I suggest that rather than taking photos of cyclists from afar with a long lens you get on a bike and try cycling in this fair city of ours yourself. You will find out pretty quickly I can assure you.
Between seriously dangerous potholes, speeding buses, zero planning, and no parking.
The Dublin Bikes scheme is a convenient PR boost, but nothing has really happened in terms of planning or road quality or other issues.
Try cycling across super wide Westmoreland Street(no cycle lane) when 10 busses are speeding in and out around you and you are stuck in the center of the road.

You talk about cycle lanes - what cycle lanes? it has been years since the initial minor red lanes were put in on 'certain' easy out of the way streets, and have deteriotated to nothing ever since. Look in front of any bus stop in the city and you will see potholes - as they don't reenforce bus stop road space. And the general condition of what is a relatively tiny city area has got to dangerous levels with many potholes.

Many of the most dangerous streets in the city have no cycle lanes, while wide streets do. Why? because it is easy, not because it is what is needed. The DCC has no interest in serving the needs of actual cyclists. Look at the canal cycle route they are putting in to great expense - streets, and routes that are rarely used, and so quiet a dedicated lane is totally unnecessary. Meanwhile try cycling from Rathmines to the city center and you will be met with a mass of dangerous potholes, and poor planning. Try cycling back to Rathmines, and you can't because you technically can't cycle around stephen's green, and the road by The Bleeding Horse is one way.

Likewise try getting a space to lock a bike. Dawson Street has a max of 20 spaces - always full. O'Connell Street only has two spots of about 30 spaces - always full. And try parking a bike at a Dart station- they have still not put in bike parking in most of the Dart stations like Landsdowne etc., Try parking a bike at Sandmount Strand - not one bike stand.

As with everything in Dublin I'm afraid ongoing 'maintenance' is not something DCC understand. They put in infrastructure and then from that moment on they are left to deteriorate to nothing - Smithfield/O'Connell street regeneration, Boardwalk etc.,

But to come along sniping at cyclists with a long lens and and blame them, while yet again DCC get off the hook is absurd.
Why doesn't DCC have a road maintenance crew to repair dangerous potholes on an ongoing basis? The center of Dublin is tiny, yet nothing is done until you endlessly phone or email about it.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:21 pm

At lunchtime today I saw a cyclists riding with one hand whilst holding a full sized golf umbrella with the other. He cycled through a red light shortly before cycling past a police car.

yep - those potholes are a NIGHTmare
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:39 pm

davidarthurs wrote: It's pretty simple - If you want to find out what areas of Dublin are dangerous for cycling I suggest that rather than taking photos of cyclists from afar with a long lens you get on a bike and try cycling in this fair city of ours yourself. You will find out pretty quickly I can assure you.
Between seriously dangerous potholes, speeding buses, zero planning, and no parking.
The Dublin Bikes scheme is a convenient PR boost, but nothing has really happened in terms of planning or road quality or other issues.


In other countries I often cycled as much as 50 miles. I wouldn't get on a bike in Dublin city if you paid me. I know how dangerous it is. Over the last few years I've been present on the streets on 4 separate occasions when people were killed outright. I think anyone who cycles in Dublin city is taking their life in their hands.

The "success" of the Dublin Bike scheme amounts to no more than counting numbers of bikes used. It's as half baked in it's planning as everything else is by DCC. There is no thought as to which route a cyclists will use as a result of where the bike stand is located. The fact that the city is small, haphazardly planned and badly regulated all combine to encourage cyclists to engage in bad behaviour.

From Princes St Nrt bike stand, to travel to Grafton St strictly legally as the laws stand, a cyclists would have to take a very roundabout route. First they'd have to cycle north on O'Connell st up to the lights at the junction of Cathal Bruagh St. Then south past one bus stop after another only reaching a usable cycle lane after passing the junction of Abbey St Mid. This cycle lane is marked by poles showing once again the inconsistent standards that apply in Dublin. Most cyclists just mount the footpath at Pennys and cross to Clearys on the median.


davidarthurs wrote:Try cycling across super wide Westmoreland Street(no cycle lane) when 10 busses are speeding in and out around you and you are stuck in the center of the road.


I know Westmoreland street well. I've also photographed one cyclist after another on the street at night without lights. I've captured a few more going the wrong way on both sides of it and cyclists on the footpath and cyclists coming the wrong way out of Fleet st around the illegally parked taxis.

davidarthurs wrote:You talk about cycle lanes - what cycle lanes? it has been years since the initial minor red lanes were put in on 'certain' easy out of the way streets, and have deteriotated to nothing ever since. Look in front of any bus stop in the city and you will see potholes - as they don't reenforce bus stop road space. And the general condition of what is a relatively tiny city area has got to dangerous levels with many potholes.

Many of the most dangerous streets in the city have no cycle lanes, while wide streets do. Why? because it is easy, not because it is what is needed. The DCC has no interest in serving the needs of actual cyclists. Look at the canal cycle route they are putting in to great expense - streets, and routes that are rarely used, and so quiet a dedicated lane is totally unnecessary. Meanwhile try cycling from Rathmines to the city center and you will be met with a mass of dangerous potholes, and poor planning. Try cycling back to Rathmines, and you can't because you technically can't cycle around stephen's green, and the road by The Bleeding Horse is one way.


DCC has no interest in doing it's job. They quote the number of cycle lanes in terms of kilometres not in terms of quality. It's a slap dash approach that looks to like it's purpose was to draw down EU grants and make it look like they were doing their what we pay them for.

davidarthurs wrote:Likewise try getting a space to lock a bike. Dawson Street has a max of 20 spaces - always full. O'Connell Street only has two spots of about 30 spaces - always full. And try parking a bike at a Dart station- they have still not put in bike parking in most of the Dart stations like Landsdowne etc., Try parking a bike at Sandmount Strand - not one bike stand.


Bikes at the same shouldn't be locked to anything and everything. The city is only so big. While there may not be enough bike stands it would be going overboard if every street started to look like handle bar city. There is also the fact that at great expense the DCC have cleared a floor in Drury St car park which cyclists are not using fully. It's got CCTV it's out of the weather but still there are bike locked to lamp standards and bollards blocking footpaths and street seating only metres away.


davidarthurs wrote: As with everything in Dublin I'm afraid ongoing 'maintenance' is not something DCC understand. They put in infrastructure and then from that moment on they are left to deteriorate to nothing - Smithfield/O'Connell street regeneration, Boardwalk etc.,


This country in terms of politics is a failure. Politically it's like a giant flan that's collapsed in the middle. The nearer you get to the centre of power the lower down you travel.

davidarthurs wrote:But to come along sniping at cyclists with a long lens and and blame them, while yet again DCC get off the hook is absurd. Why doesn't DCC have a road maintenance crew to repair dangerous potholes on an ongoing basis? The center of Dublin is tiny, yet nothing is done until you endlessly phone or email about it.


That's the point exactly: this all lies at the door of DCC. Cyclists, pedestrians and motorists all pointing the finger at each other are like the residents of a badly built, badly designed, poorly finished housing estate. What needs to be done is get to the big fancy offices of the builder and hold him to account. In this case it's DCC.

I was asked to go on another radio show today. I went through the same rigmarole. I said I might if it was a balanced program and it was based on 1 what are cyclists doing 2 why 3 what should be done. This is what I was told on the second phone call: our listeners are in the ??? to ?? (I can't remember) it will be a quick 5 minutes, just a light hearted piece...

So I said "does that meant I won't mention the cyclists I saw getting his head crushed under the wheel of a truck?

Eh no ....well er...it's just really for young people....and it's Dublin Cycling Week an' all....

I told them to call Will Andrews of the Dublin Cycling Campaign. As far as I know they did, so he'll be on a radio show (I presume) on Monday at 2.40 pm.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:40 pm

davidarthurs wrote: It's pretty simple - If you want to find out what areas of Dublin are dangerous for cycling I suggest that rather than taking photos of cyclists from afar with a long lens you get on a bike and try cycling in this fair city of ours yourself. You will find out pretty quickly I can assure you.
Between seriously dangerous potholes, speeding buses, zero planning, and no parking.
The Dublin Bikes scheme is a convenient PR boost, but nothing has really happened in terms of planning or road quality or other issues.


In other countries I often cycled as much as 50 miles. I wouldn't get on a bike in Dublin city if you paid me. I know how dangerous it is. Over the last few years I've been present on the streets on 4 separate occasions when people were killed outright. I think anyone who cycles in Dublin city is taking their life in their hands.

The "success" of the Dublin Bike scheme amounts to no more than counting numbers of bikes used. It's as half baked in it's planning as everything else is by DCC. There is no thought as to which route a cyclists will use as a result of where the bike stand is located. The fact that the city is small, haphazardly planned and badly regulated all combine to encourage cyclists to engage in bad behaviour.

From Princes St Nrt bike stand, to travel to Grafton St strictly legally as the laws stand, a cyclists would have to take a very roundabout route. First they'd have to cycle north on O'Connell st up to the lights at the junction of Cathal Bruagh St. Then south past one bus stop after another only reaching a usable cycle lane after passing the junction of Abbey St Mid. This cycle lane is marked by poles showing once again the inconsistent standards that apply in Dublin. Most cyclists just mount the footpath at Pennys and cross to Clearys on the median.


davidarthurs wrote:Try cycling across super wide Westmoreland Street(no cycle lane) when 10 busses are speeding in and out around you and you are stuck in the center of the road.


I know Westmoreland street well. I've also photographed one cyclist after another on the street at night without lights. I've captured a few more going the wrong way on both sides of it and cyclists on the footpath and cyclists coming the wrong way out of Fleet st around the illegally parked taxis.

davidarthurs wrote:You talk about cycle lanes - what cycle lanes? it has been years since the initial minor red lanes were put in on 'certain' easy out of the way streets, and have deteriotated to nothing ever since. Look in front of any bus stop in the city and you will see potholes - as they don't reenforce bus stop road space. And the general condition of what is a relatively tiny city area has got to dangerous levels with many potholes.

Many of the most dangerous streets in the city have no cycle lanes, while wide streets do. Why? because it is easy, not because it is what is needed. The DCC has no interest in serving the needs of actual cyclists. Look at the canal cycle route they are putting in to great expense - streets, and routes that are rarely used, and so quiet a dedicated lane is totally unnecessary. Meanwhile try cycling from Rathmines to the city center and you will be met with a mass of dangerous potholes, and poor planning. Try cycling back to Rathmines, and you can't because you technically can't cycle around stephen's green, and the road by The Bleeding Horse is one way.


DCC has no interest in doing it's job. They quote the number of cycle lanes in terms of kilometres not in terms of quality. It's a slap dash approach that looks to like it's purpose was to draw down EU grants and make it look like they were doing their what we pay them for.

davidarthurs wrote:Likewise try getting a space to lock a bike. Dawson Street has a max of 20 spaces - always full. O'Connell Street only has two spots of about 30 spaces - always full. And try parking a bike at a Dart station- they have still not put in bike parking in most of the Dart stations like Landsdowne etc., Try parking a bike at Sandmount Strand - not one bike stand.


Bikes at the same shouldn't be locked to anything and everything. The city is only so big. While there may not be enough bike stands it would be going overboard if every street started to look like handle bar city. There is also the fact that at great expense the DCC have cleared a floor in Drury St car park which cyclists are not using fully. It's got CCTV it's out of the weather but still there are bike locked to lamp standards and bollards blocking footpaths and street seating only metres away.


davidarthurs wrote: As with everything in Dublin I'm afraid ongoing 'maintenance' is not something DCC understand. They put in infrastructure and then from that moment on they are left to deteriorate to nothing - Smithfield/O'Connell street regeneration, Boardwalk etc.,


This country in terms of politics is a failure. Politically it's like a giant flan that's collapsed in the middle. The nearer you get to the centre of power the lower down you travel.

davidarthurs wrote:But to come along sniping at cyclists with a long lens and and blame them, while yet again DCC get off the hook is absurd. Why doesn't DCC have a road maintenance crew to repair dangerous potholes on an ongoing basis? The center of Dublin is tiny, yet nothing is done until you endlessly phone or email about it.


That's the point exactly: this all lies at the door of DCC. Cyclists, pedestrians and motorists all pointing the finger at each other are like the residents of a badly built, badly designed, poorly finished housing estate. What needs to be done is get to the big fancy offices of the builder and hold him to account. In this case it's DCC.

I was asked to go on another radio show today. I went through the same rigmarole. I said I might if it was a balanced program and it was based on 1 what are cyclists doing 2 why 3 what should be done. This is what I was told on the second phone call: our listeners are in the ??? to ?? (I can't remember) it will be a quick 5 minutes, just a light hearted piece...

So I said "does that meant I won't mention the cyclists I saw getting his head crushed under the wheel of a truck?

Eh no ....well er...it's just really for young people....and it's Dublin Cycling Week an' all....

I told them to call Will Andrews of the Dublin Cycling Campaign. As far as I know they did, so he'll be on a radio show (I presume) on Monday at 2.40 pm.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby gintyc » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:01 pm

FXR -- I agree with you that there needs to be better enforcement for cyclists. There's also a need for better enforcement for motorists and pedestrians too -- it's a general problem with lack of enforcement of our traffic laws. It's by no means an exclusive problem to cyclists.

And, no, I'm not just a cyclist, I'm a cyclist and pedestrian. I've a young baby so I can't stand other cyclists breaking light or cycling fast on the footpath with no care in the world for others. Even just as a cyclist, I'm fed up of others passing me at red lights.

But you're wrong on a lot of points.

For example, on "bicycle clutter." Only a small fraction of cyclists park their bikes in a way which obstructs others -- motorists parked or partly parked on the footpath is a far, far, far larger problem in my experiences of pushing a pram around and having a babe in a carrier. Where there is no obstruction, there is no law stopping cyclists from using polls, trees etc to lock their bikes to.

You're wrong on other points too...

FXR wrote:Why then does the cycling lobby demand I pay for more and more cycle lanes costing up to 1.6 million per kilometre? The amount of money being spent needs to be questioned at least.


Where has the cycling lobby demanded this? Can you point to one article?

To be fair, the Dublin Cycle Campaign don't agree with the spending on cycle lanes. They have said to me that it would be better spent on training for all road users, including cyclists.


FXR wrote:In all the campaigning for more rights and facilities for cyclists there is never a mention of cyclists contributing a single cent to the economy.


Cyclists don't contribute to the economy? What on earth are you basing that on? :problem:


FXR wrote:Cycling requires additional facilities not already in existence for which they will not pay one red cent.


Actually cycling does not require any such additional facilities. People are and have been cycling for years without such.

But the government wants to provide these additional facilities. Because they think that having more cyclists is good for the country, good for people's health, good for the economy, good for the taxpayer, and good for environment.

FXR wrote:It's a fact: cyclists in Dublin break every law every second of every day. The show no regard for pedestrians, other road users and endanger themselves.


No, that's not a fact.

It's only a fact that some cyclist break the law, and only some of them have no respect for anybody. Just like some pedestrians and motorists do the same and some have no respect for anybody.


wearnicehats wrote:there's no doubt that the lycra crowd have to put their money where their mouths are.

The dublin cycling campaign charges €20 for membership. make it €100 and put the other €80 towards cycle lanes.

There are myriad of cycling clubs around the country - attach a similar levy...


Errr... the lycra crowd? From the members I've ever talked to, there's not that many of "the lycra crowd" in the cycling campaign. Anyway, "the lycra crowd" are not the kind of people who want expensive segregated cycle lanes.

And a levy on bicycles? You don't seem to understand that there's currently tax exemptions on bicycles and gear as the Government wants more people cycling not less?
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby davidarthurs » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:33 pm

The fact is that the the capital city covers a tiny area of street routes that are heavily used by cyclists yet even these clearly cannot be maintained by DCC. The pothole situation has gone way beyond bumps in the road to major fissures and whole chunks of road missing. In front of every bus stop is major road damage now. And the point is that this tiny area is not watched over by DCC at all, so a major pothole will go totally ignored and unfixed for weeks on end or unless you send 20 emails to DCC to get them to fix it, with maps and directions. They have no clue of the ongoing damage of the roads on a weekly basis in heavily used city center areas.
The badly planned red traffic bumps in front of the likes of Chapters books left whole portions of the road in craters for months. And any calls about it were met with notice that they were currently seeking pitches from sub-contractors for the job. Crazy.

It is also clear there is a huge difference between road repairs carried out by contracted utility companies who generally now lay, flatten and seal new repairs pretty well, and those carried out by DCC, which are generally just mountains of tar piled into holes and left for cyclists to kill themselves on, and which slowly break down and do even more damage. Clearly these DCC crews have zero training in road repair and maintenance. IMO the only way the road surface will be improved is if a private clamping style maintenance company is set up to watch over road repairs and fine either contractors or DCC for shoddy work.

And they need to shift their attitude from one of quick fix to one of ongoing maintenance. You just know the new canal cycle routes will be launched with much fanfare when finished, but from that moment on will just deteriorate due to zero maintenance.

It could not possibly cost that much to have a permanent well trained road maintenance crew for the central city area, all on full time wages as opposed to the current super expensive contract based system where every pothole is a job number and put on a waiting list.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby gintyc » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:11 pm

There is extra funding being made available of the main routes in Dublin -- €12m on top of the normal resurfacing budget of around €4m. There'll be a focus on QBCs.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:10 pm

gintyc wrote: FXR -- I agree with you that there needs to be better enforcement for cyclists. There's also a need for better enforcement for motorists and pedestrians too -- it's a general problem with lack of enforcement of our traffic laws. It's by no means an exclusive problem to cyclists.


It's not as simple as that gintyc. It's not enough to say we need more enforcement when an already inadequate number of Gardai are being further reduced. Gardai should be dealing with crime and serious offences. Cycling on Grafton street is bad and even dangerous (where some individual cyclists are concerned) but it's not in the same league as drug dealing. A Gardai has to issue a summons and go to court to have a cyclists charged with breaking the law. That's ridiculous.

What the city needs is Bicycle Wardens. Not just a team who operate from 9 to 5 either but at night time as well. In the centre city at night I've counted numerous unlit cyclists well after dark. But hold on.....our dullard politicians most likely do anything that they don't do "over there".. To listen to some of the themes running through this subject on different websites it sounds like the stupid Irish should just hire the Dutch bicycle experts to show us what to do.


gintyc wrote:For example, on "bicycle clutter." Only a small fraction of cyclists park their bikes in a way which obstructs others -- motorists parked or partly parked on the footpath is a far, far, far larger problem in my experiences of pushing a pram around and having a babe in a carrier. Where there is no obstruction, there is no law stopping cyclists from using polls, trees etc to lock their bikes to.


I contacted DCC to get clarification on exactly where it's allowed to lock a bike and where not. That was about 2 months ago. I expect they're too busy running the city to get back to me and besides, I'm only a citizen. I asked as many visually impaired people as I could about how they found walking around Dublin city. One even told me he often gets his stick caught in bicycle wheels. Blind people depend on learning streets by memory. Lamp standards are not bicycle stands. Trees are not bicycle stands. Bicycles locked to street furniture hamper effective cleaning by automatic street cleaners and washers. I asked many different members of the street cleaning staff about this over a period of time.

As for parking:
Image

Image
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:13 pm

In terms of cycle lanes is this a joke or a way of upping the numbers for DCC?
Image
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:24 pm

gintyc wrote: Where has the cycling lobby demanded this? Can you point to one article?

I'll have to get back to you on that one gintyc. I'm sure if seen something to that effect but I've been through website after website and I've lost track.

gintyc wrote:To be fair, the Dublin Cycle Campaign don't agree with the spending on cycle lanes. They have said to me that it would be better spent on training for all road users, including cyclists.

Do they object to money being spent on cycle lanes. I seem to remember the Dub Cyl Cam is represent on the Dublin City Council cycling forum.

gintyc wrote:Cyclists don't contribute to the economy? What on earth are you basing that on? :problem:


There is no charge specific to cycling. Cyclists pay no road tax or licence fee. Cyclists don't pay any fee for the provision of bike stands, there is no cycle lane tax (which for motorists is called road tax). A tax free bike scheme reduces the public income and increases public expenditure as show in the Dublin's Bicycle clutter video. Whatever the arguments for the conditions it's a fact that cyclists don't contribute any funds specific to cycling to the economy.

gintyc wrote:Actually cycling does not require any such additional facilities. People are and have been cycling for years without such. But the government wants to provide these additional facilities. Because they think that having more cyclists is good for the country, good for people's health, good for the economy, good for the taxpayer, and good for environment.


There's the real root of the problem: politics in Ireland. Here is a facility provided specifically for cyclists;http://www.dublincitycycling.ie/blog/index.php/2009/10/new-cycle-parking-facility-on-drury-street/

Note that in their own photos trumpeting this new facility the place is half empty. Note the date on the top of website is 27 Oct 2009. Now look at the photos take on 10/06/2011 http://s532.photobucket.com/albums/ee327/Falconer1st/Dublin%20Cyclists%20Drury%20St/.


That's over a year and a half and the expensive facility is still half empty on a Friday afternoon at 5.41 pm.

FXR wrote:It's a fact: cyclists in Dublin break every law every second of every day. The show no regard for pedestrians, other road users and endanger themselves.


gintyc wrote:No, that's not a fact.
It's only a fact that some cyclist break the law, and only some of them have no respect for anybody. Just like some pedestrians and motorists do the same and some have no respect for anybody.


I'm afraid it's a fact. I've tested that statement over and over. I've got this recorded and viewable evidence and if anyone can provide similar evidence to contradict it be my guest;

1. Dublin Cyclists Wild Frontier.
Cyclists involved in behaviour to the extent it could be classed as suicidal. This includes cycling into traffic the wrong way on busy one way streets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkMRHupiXlU

2. The Pedestrianised South King Street.
Dublin cyclists on pedestrian streets. In this short slideshow cyclists are breaking the law every 21 seconds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVaAhGmFQzM


3. Sean O'Casey Pedestrian Bridge.
Cycle lanes cost up to 1.6 million per kilometre (see Sunday Times article by Ciara Healy 29/05/2011 page 8)
This is the Sean O'Casey bridge: it is surrounded by the best cycle lanes in the city. Cyclists simply ignore the cycle lanes and use the pedestrian bridge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgpY0IqM1Wg

4. The Millennium Pedestrian Bridge.
The Millennium pedestrian bridge. I counted over 100 mounted cyclists crossing the bridge in 2 hours. Of those a good number turned the wrong way up the Quays while the rest cycled into the narrow Millennium walkway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYuIBlYTF1g

That's not even all I have. There's more. I didn't have to set aside any great amount of time or do any detective work or gain little know inside knowledge to find the locations. All I had to do was do what I was doing any way and take photographs along the way.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby spoil_sport » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:40 pm

As someone who commutes by bicycle every day and has done so for 8+ years (and in that time has had one minor collision with a vehicle) I just want to add my 2 cents worth.

Sure, if you want to be pedantic about it, then yes, cyclist do break the law every day, however, it really depends on what you define as the law (well, the law is the law you say) but bicycles are fundamentally different to both pedestrians and vehicles, and it is only sensible and right that different rules should apply. I regularly skip red lights, and I see no problem with this as long as the junction is clear and it is safe to do so. I will continue to do so. Similarly, although cyclists blatantly travelling along footpaths is pet peeve of mine, I'll admit to occasionally mounting an unoccupied footpath for short distances, again, if it cuts my journey time and doesn't hurt anyone, I don't see the problem with it.

I acknowledge there is a need for some cyclists to be more considerate, likewise drivers and pedestrians; but frankly I don't much care for the rule book, the rules need to be bent a little. In London where I live now, this is acknowledged to an extent where many road signs, such as "no left turn", are appended with "except cyclists" notes. Its been a few years since I cycled in Dublin so I don't I can't remember if there is an equivalent. This could be taken further, such as in the sequencing of traffic lights, for example, at junctions cyclists could have an amber light during pedestrian lights; turning right at a junction can be one of the most dangerous manoeuvres for a cyclist, getting a head start on traffic would make it safer but pedestrians would still have priority.

But surely cyclists should contribute financially for all this infrastructure? Well, no, absolutely not. Cyclists cause a fraction of the wear and tear on roads as vehicles do, and the other benefits do not need to be repeated but I will anyway, health (exercise), health again (air quality) reduced pollution, reduced congestion, etc, etc. Cyclists need to be incentivised, not penalised. This means making the proper infrastructure available, extending cycle-hire schemes, making best use of cycle-to-work schemes, and on a larger scale of planning, encourage city living, etc. If there was a major cultural shift, where the cyclist became the dominant road user in the city (such as the critical mass event on the last Friday of the month, look it up if you don't know it) then it would be justifiable for cyclists to contribute. But frankly, considering the current balance is anti-cyclist, I have no intention of paying for the privilege of putting my life on the line to get form A to B only to find nowhere to park my bike when I get to B!

I'm going to finish on an even more controversial statement: Aggressive cycling is safer cycling! Making a nuisance of yourself on the road to a certain degree, making sure motorists are aware of your presence and actively acknowledging you is safer than hugging the kerb and sitting back in traffic where there is less chance of being noticed (as well as hi-vis and lights of course!)
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby davidarthurs » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:15 pm

Personally I have only skipped lights when I have felt my safety is in danger if I pull out at the same time as the heavy traffic beside me. Fo example high trucks and buses if they don't see me can pull into the left and crush me easily - this has nearly happened to me a few times. I'm sorry but the fact is most experienced cyclists know instinctively when their life is at risk in certain situations and you just can't follow everything by the book in many situations. Especially in a poorly planned city like Dublin. I think you forget just how vulnerable a cyclist is to serious injury on a daily basis if they don't keep their eyes open. And sometimes that involves pulling onto a pavement if you think you are going to be hit by a truck or bus.

Likewise there is nothing more dangerous for a cyclist that a left turning car that cuts across you as you are going forward. I have been hit by two cars so far this way when I stayed on a level with the traffic at the lights. Likewise it is far safer for a left turning cyclist to turn left through the lights if the traffic is clear, especially if you are turning into another empty cycle lane. Many junctions like one in Ranelagh are poorly planned with left and straight junctions at traffic light leaving cyclists vulnerable.

Many streets in Dublin necessitate thinking beyond the rules of the road for pure safety reasons. Cycling along the quays is one case in point. Coming from the Point the cycle lane disappears up and down onto and off the road in incredibly dangerous ways if you were to follow them. They actually encourage you to pull onto the road, into traffic. No one in their right mind would do this. All for the sake of a badly planned cycle lane that doesn't run in a straight line, on one of the most dangerous roads in Dublin center.

In terms of parking there should could easily be more parking spaces allocated to bikes in laneways off the main road to avoid clutter. The parking frames are also very poorly designed in many areas of the city IMO. The should be angled - not straight and eating up half the pavement space - most are not. They should also be properly spaced - not crammed together - most are not. Try getting your bike out of the bike parking space at stephen's green shopping center and you'll see what I mean. Also many of the bikes parked in the spaces are dead bikes that have been there for months and are eating up valuable parking space. There ar a few of these on Dawson street. One that was being abused by the Celtic Whiskey Company for advertising, which they eventually took away, but left the broken bike they were using to secure the spot.
The Council themselves have been placing parking rings on many of the poles in the city recently. Maybe they just need more of these. Dublin is full of poles as we well know, but there are plenty of opportunity for well designed bike parking if it properly planned and designed. As it is there isn't either. Again, you should be taking this to the DCC and their useless new 'cycle officer', not blaming cyclists.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:49 pm

davidarthurs wrote: Personally I have only skipped lights when I have felt my safety is in danger if I pull out at the same time as the heavy traffic beside me. Fo example high trucks and buses if they don't see me can pull into the left and crush me easily - this has nearly happened to me a few times. I'm sorry but the fact is most experienced cyclists know instinctively when their life is at risk in certain situations and you just can't follow everything by the book in many situations. Especially in a poorly planned city like Dublin. I think you forget just how vulnerable a cyclist is to serious injury on a daily basis if they don't keep their eyes open. And sometimes that involves pulling onto a pavement if you think you are going to be hit by a truck or bus.


I took these photos on Ormond Quay
Image

Image

I know how vulnerable cyclists are David. In fact I may be far more aware of the dangers than an awful lot of cyclists seem to be. Just look at this behaviour which is common and recurring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkMRHupiXlU

I was sitting in traffic not so long ago. Looking up at the junction a truck came into view signalling to turn towards me. All the indicators were flashing. Being a bigger vehicle he has to pass the centre of the junction to make the turn. As the cab broke left a cyclist came into view alongside the truck, head down, peddling away, oblivious to everything. The front wheel knocked him off the bike. He went face down on the road and was desperately pawing the ground as the truck swept over him. The centre bulge of the axle caught his bulky back pack which jerked his body to his left. His head went under the front wheel. He died instantly though I imagine to him his last minutes felt like an eternity. He had a wife and children.

I was about a hundred metres away looking straight at him. I went to the inquest about a year later as a witness. A fire brigade officer, over a cup of coffee, gave me some more of the details I could have done without. He described the cyclists face mashed into the spokes of the bike. Over a year after the accident the truck driver still hadn't recovered. He had a nervous breakdown. That's not the only time I've been on a street when a cyclist got killed.

The root of the problem is Dublin City Council who seem to be absent most of the time. I can name one problem after another on the streets. A lot of them only need some paint and intelligent planning to fix. Today I was talking to a friend of mine. The entrance to his business is constantly blocked by a parked car. The street was dug up one time then patched with tar which covered the double yellow lines. He's been reporting the problem constantly and trying to get the double lines repainted. That's been going on for 9 years now.

If there are situations where it can be proven by research that there are instances where the law should be changed then that's what should be done. In the meantime DCC has established by their failure to run the city that widespread breaking of the law is acceptable. It's "Do What Yah Like Dublin" because there's nobody watching.

davidarthurs wrote: Many streets in Dublin necessitate thinking beyond the rules of the road for pure safety reasons. Cycling along the quays is one case in point. Coming from the Point the cycle lane disappears up and down onto and off the road in incredibly dangerous ways if you were to follow them. They actually encourage you to pull onto the road, into traffic. No one in their right mind would do this. All for the sake of a badly planned cycle lane that doesn't run in a straight line, on one of the most dangerous roads in Dublin center.


It's as if the inhabitants of Dublin City Council offices travel in and out of the city by helicopter. Any individual resident of Dublin city could walk around for a day and make a list of problems just by looking at the state of the place.

davidarthurs wrote:In terms of parking there should could easily be more parking spaces allocated to bikes in laneways off the main road to avoid clutter. The parking frames are also very poorly designed in many areas of the city IMO. The should be angled - not straight and eating up half the pavement space - most are not. They should also be properly spaced - not crammed together - most are not. Try getting your bike out of the bike parking space at stephen's green shopping center and you'll see what I mean.


I think this illustrates your point;
Image

davidarthurs wrote:Also many of the bikes parked in the spaces are dead bikes that have been there for months and are eating up valuable parking space. There ar a few of these on Dawson street. One that was being abused by the Celtic Whiskey Company for advertising, which they eventually took away, but left the broken bike they were using to secure the spot.


This kind of thing:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aeos7H8xLdQ

davidarthurs wrote:The Council themselves have been placing parking rings on many of the poles in the city recently. Maybe they just need more of these. Dublin is full of poles as we well know, but there are plenty of opportunity for well designed bike parking if it properly planned and designed. As it is there isn't either. Again, you should be taking this to the DCC and their useless new 'cycle officer', not blaming cyclists.


I looked at those rings. That DCC put them up doesn't really recommend them. You'll find an example on Trinity street. In the video Dublin's Bicycle Clutter you can see a cyclists on one of those small trick bikes squeezing past two pensioners right where a bike is locked to one of the rings. The street cleaners I spoke to told me bikes locked to poles mean that a part of the street can't be cleaned. The situation basically is this: you can more or less lock a bike to anything anywhere any time.

The one place you'll almost certainly never see a bike locked is a bus stop. The bus drivers tell me that Dublin Bus have any bikes locked to Bus Stops removed. I'm not inclined to take that without reservation. None of the bus drivers could subsequently tell me of ever having come across the situation.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:53 pm

davidarthurs wrote: Personally I have only skipped lights when I have felt my safety is in danger if I pull out at the same time as the heavy traffic beside me. Fo example high trucks and buses if they don't see me can pull into the left and crush me easily - this has nearly happened to me a few times. I'm sorry but the fact is most experienced cyclists know instinctively when their life is at risk in certain situations and you just can't follow everything by the book in many situations. Especially in a poorly planned city like Dublin. I think you forget just how vulnerable a cyclist is to serious injury on a daily basis if they don't keep their eyes open. And sometimes that involves pulling onto a pavement if you think you are going to be hit by a truck or bus.


I took these photos on Ormond Quay
Image

Image

I know how vulnerable cyclists are David. In fact I may be far more aware of the dangers than an awful lot of cyclists seem to be. Just look at this behaviour which is common and recurring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkMRHupiXlU

I was sitting in traffic not so long ago. Looking up at the junction a truck came into view signalling to turn towards me. All the indicators were flashing. Being a bigger vehicle he has to pass the centre of the junction to make the turn. As the cab broke left a cyclist came into view alongside the truck, head down, peddling away, oblivious to everything. The front wheel knocked him off the bike. He went face down on the road and was desperately pawing the ground as the truck swept over him. The centre bulge of the axle caught his bulky back pack which jerked his body to his left. His head went under the front wheel. He died instantly though I imagine to him his last minutes felt like an eternity. He had a wife and children.

I was about a hundred metres away looking straight at him. I went to the inquest about a year later as a witness. A fire brigade officer, over a cup of coffee, gave me some more of the details I could have done without. He described the cyclists face mashed into the spokes of the bike. Over a year after the accident the truck driver still hadn't recovered. He had a nervous breakdown. That's not the only time I've been on a street when a cyclist got killed.

The root of the problem is Dublin City Council who seem to be absent most of the time. I can name one problem after another on the streets. A lot of them only need some paint and intelligent planning to fix. Today I was talking to a friend of mine. The entrance to his business is constantly blocked by a parked car. The street was dug up one time then patched with tar which covered the double yellow lines. He's been reporting the problem constantly and trying to get the double lines repainted. That's been going on for 9 years now.

If there are situations where it can be proven by research that there are instances where the law should be changed then that's what should be done. In the meantime DCC has established by their failure to run the city that widespread breaking of the law is acceptable. It's "Do What Yah Like Dublin" because there's nobody watching.

davidarthurs wrote: Many streets in Dublin necessitate thinking beyond the rules of the road for pure safety reasons. Cycling along the quays is one case in point. Coming from the Point the cycle lane disappears up and down onto and off the road in incredibly dangerous ways if you were to follow them. They actually encourage you to pull onto the road, into traffic. No one in their right mind would do this. All for the sake of a badly planned cycle lane that doesn't run in a straight line, on one of the most dangerous roads in Dublin center.


It's as if the inhabitants of Dublin City Council offices travel in and out of the city by helicopter. Any individual resident of Dublin city could walk around for a day and make a list of problems just by looking at the state of the place.

davidarthurs wrote:In terms of parking there should could easily be more parking spaces allocated to bikes in laneways off the main road to avoid clutter. The parking frames are also very poorly designed in many areas of the city IMO. The should be angled - not straight and eating up half the pavement space - most are not. They should also be properly spaced - not crammed together - most are not. Try getting your bike out of the bike parking space at stephen's green shopping center and you'll see what I mean.


I think this illustrates your point;
Image

davidarthurs wrote:Also many of the bikes parked in the spaces are dead bikes that have been there for months and are eating up valuable parking space. There ar a few of these on Dawson street. One that was being abused by the Celtic Whiskey Company for advertising, which they eventually took away, but left the broken bike they were using to secure the spot.


This kind of thing:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aeos7H8xLdQ

davidarthurs wrote:The Council themselves have been placing parking rings on many of the poles in the city recently. Maybe they just need more of these. Dublin is full of poles as we well know, but there are plenty of opportunity for well designed bike parking if it properly planned and designed. As it is there isn't either. Again, you should be taking this to the DCC and their useless new 'cycle officer', not blaming cyclists.


I looked at those rings. That DCC put them up doesn't really recommend them. You'll find an example on Trinity street. In the video Dublin's Bicycle Clutter you can see a cyclists on one of those small trick bikes squeezing past two pensioners right where a bike is locked to one of the rings. The street cleaners I spoke to told me bikes locked to poles mean that a part of the street can't be cleaned. The situation basically is this: you can more or less lock a bike to anything anywhere any time.

The one place you'll almost certainly never see a bike locked is a bus stop. The bus drivers tell me that Dublin Bus have any bikes locked to Bus Stops removed. I'm not inclined to take that without reservation. None of the bus drivers could subsequently tell me of ever having come across the situation.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:15 pm

I don't know why the images in that last post have disappeared.

This is an example of breaking a red light. Three cyclists in a row went through the light.

Image

Should this be allowed and is it safe. There is no opposing traffic flow. The bus on the right restricts the view of the cyclists but they are all moving slow. If you allow cyclists to break some lights will a lot of cyclists use that as an excuse to break any light?
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby davidarthurs » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:45 pm

To be honest when there is no real junction and no one crossing the street must cyclists will go forward.
You are getting into all kinds of general bad traffic design decisions that are programmed around cars, but not in safe free moving around a city.
Dublin has become over stuffed with traffic lights and poles in recent years mainly to control cars.

You could say the same about pedestrians jaywalking across that very same street. The pedestrian crossing is slightly further down and 9/10 people cross before the lights onto the triangle.

It's as if the inhabitants of Dublin City Council offices travel in and out of the city by helicopter. Any individual resident of Dublin city could walk around for a day and make a list of problems just by looking at the state of the place.


Exactly. I don't get a sense of anyone watching the daily problems that most can see that cycle regularly in the city. There is a big difference in surveying a road route by car and getting out as a pedestrian or bike. And even then I'm not sure they have anyone watching out for these things. Most cyclists I know are constantly having to email and phone DCC about damage - If that is the way they want to do it, they should at least set up an automated reporting website to make the process easy. But really Dublin is tiny and it shouldn't be necessary.

Most problems, like the total lack of a cycle route around the East side of the Green could be fixed easily. It says buses only on the sign - but shouldn't that be buses and bikes only? Everyone cycles that route to get to Earstfort tce > ranelagh/rathmines anyway. But if you ring them they tell you it is officially for busses only and you are supposed to go all the way to the end of Baggot street and take a right up the canal - absurd - and no one does it. And rightly so quite frankly.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:29 pm

davidarthurs wrote: To be honest when there is no real junction and no one crossing the street must cyclists will go forward.
You are getting into all kinds of general bad traffic design decisions that are programmed around cars, but not in safe free moving around a city.
Dublin has become over stuffed with traffic lights and poles in recent years mainly to control cars.


Who knows how many millions Dublin City Council and their decisions have cost over the years. There is no sense that there has been a continuous record of integrated planning that strives to balance the needs of all who live and work in the city.



davidarthurs wrote: Exactly. I don't get a sense of anyone watching the daily problems that most can see that cycle regularly in the city. There is a big difference in surveying a road route by car and getting out as a pedestrian or bike. And even then I'm not sure they have anyone watching out for these things. Most cyclists I know are constantly having to email and phone DCC about damage - If that is the way they want to do it, they should at least set up an automated reporting website to make the process easy. But really Dublin is tiny and it shouldn't be necessary.


I think reporting such damage to people who are not doing the job in the first places may be, in the case of DCC, a bit of a pointless exercise. People who are incompetent enough to make the mistakes in the first place are less likely to see those mistakes when they're pointed out.

davidarthurs wrote:Most problems, like the total lack of a cycle route around the East side of the Green could be fixed easily. It says buses only on the sign - but shouldn't that be buses and bikes only? Everyone cycles that route to get to Earstfort tce > ranelagh/rathmines anyway. But if you ring them they tell you it is officially for busses only and you are supposed to go all the way to the end of Baggot street and take a right up the canal - absurd - and no one does it. And rightly so quite frankly.


And for how many years and how many times have they been contacted about the same problem? Probably a few hundred times. All one of them has to do is walk the 20 minutes from Wood Quay to Stephens Green. Of course that would be followed by the scary hard part: making a decision.

At the moment over 20,000 people a day cycle into Dublin. By 2020 the government plans to reach a target of 160,000 cycling to work daily. The city is not expanding like an elastic field to accommodate more and more traffic. The streets will not be any wider.

How many cyclists will die or suffer injury as a result of those plans? How many people will suffer broken bones or have a nervous breakdown after seeing someone run over? To just simply pour more and more people into an unregulated situation where people will do whatever they want regardless is a recipe for disaster. Saying that the number of injuries and deaths is low is not much use to 2 children who have lost a parent even if the statistics are good overall. If you're lying in a hospital with a brace screwed into either side of your skull to put tension on your spine being told you were in the right legally is not much comfort either.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby gintyc » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:03 am

FXR wrote:It's not as simple as that gintyc. ...


Yes, it is. There's law breaking cyclists, pedestrian and motorists.

You just can't see that because you're obsessed with cyclists. Don't say you're not because you're not calling for "Pedestrian Wardens" -- why not? More pedestrians break traffic lights in the city centre daily then there are cyclist -- why no videos about pedestrians breaking lights? Why no videos about cars parked on footpaths, cycle lanes or blocking pedestrian crossings and other junctions?

The Garda Traffic Corps was set up to tactical traffic only issues such as enforcement of the rules of the road.

FXR wrote:I contacted DCC to get clarification on exactly where it's allowed to lock a bike and where not.


I'll make this clear: There is NO law stopping cyclist from using polls, trees or posts as long as they are not blocking footpaths.

Cyclists have been locking their bicycles to polls, trees and posts in Dublin for over 100 years, it has been a non-issue and it still is.

The city and national government wants more cyclists, if they don’t provide enough cycling parking stands, that’s their problem. It’s not really their problem as very few people at all view it as a problem.


FXR wrote:
gintyc wrote: Where has the cycling lobby demanded this? Can you point to one article?

I'll have to get back to you on that one gintyc. I'm sure if seen something to that effect but I've been through website after website and I've lost track.


Have a better look at their website; their stated policy is that the money spent on the canals cycle track would be better spent on education and enforcement for all users – it’s on their website and it was mentioned in The Sunday Times too.


FXR wrote:
gintyc wrote:Cyclists don't contribute to the economy? What on earth are you basing that on? :problem:


There is no charge specific to cycling. Cyclists pay no road tax or licence fee. Cyclists don't pay any fee for the provision of bike stands, there is no cycle lane tax (which for motorists is called road tax). A tax free bike scheme reduces the public income and increases public expenditure as show in the Dublin's Bicycle clutter video. Whatever the arguments for the conditions it's a fact that cyclists don't contribute any funds specific to cycling to the economy.


First you seem to be confusing "economy" with the State's tax take.

Secondly, there's no such thing as "road tax". Motorists pay motor tax, a bicycle has no motor and does no damage to roads compared to that done by cars and trucks.

Most cyclists are also motorists and even the ones how do pay tax by other means. The idea of taxing people for cycling is unworkable for a number of reasons:

Why should cyclists be the only group of people who pay road and path tax?

Why would the government tax cyclists when it currently has tax incentives aimed at getting more people cycling?

Why would you tax something that has a benefit to tax payer, has a benefit to the health service, which takes pressure off public transport and off congestion, which reduces emissions used, which reduces noise pollution, which frees up people’s money to be spent on the local economy rather than imports?

How do cyclists prove they have paid or not? Do tourists have to pay? How do you prove you’re a tourist? Do teenagers have to pay? If not, will they have to carry around ID while cycling? Even with adults, do you propose that weekend and a few times a year cyclists pay as much 5-day-a-week cyclists? Would any payment and registration system be off putting to those who just cycle the odd time?


FXR wrote:
gintyc wrote:Actually cycling does not require any such additional facilities. People are and have been cycling for years without such. But the government wants to provide these additional facilities. Because they think that having more cyclists is good for the country, good for people's health, good for the economy, good for the taxpayer, and good for environment.


There's the real root of the problem: politics in Ireland. Here is a facility provided specifically for cyclists....


You're quoting me but you're not reading what I'm saying.

You can't blame all cyclists for facilities that the State provides.


FXR wrote:
FXR wrote:It's a fact: cyclists in Dublin break every law every second of every day. The show no regard for pedestrians, other road users and endanger themselves.


gintyc wrote:No, that's not a fact.
It's only a fact that some cyclist break the law, and only some of them have no respect for anybody. Just like some pedestrians and motorists do the same and some have no respect for anybody.


I'm afraid it's a fact. I've tested that statement over and over. I've got this recorded and viewable evidence and if anyone can provide similar evidence to contradict it be my guest;
[/quote]

I'm a cyclist. I cycle in Dublin. Like many others I don't break the law. I guess there’s two choice here: You’re wrong or you are calling me a layer and a law breaker.

You have not proven that all cyclists in Dublin always break the law, only that some cyclists often break the law. Just like some motorists and some pedestrian often break the law.

And again, you're obsessed with cyclists. Why?


FXR wrote:Cycle lanes cost up to 1.6 million per kilometre (see Sunday Times article by Ciara Healy 29/05/2011 page 8)


No the article, said that cycle lanes can cost up to that amount, not that all of them do.

FXR wrote:This is the Sean O'Casey bridge: it is surrounded by the best cycle lanes in the city. Cyclists simply ignore the cycle lanes and use the pedestrian bridge.


This clearly shows that you don't know what you're taking about.

The Sean O'Casey Bridge is surrounded by some of most disjointed and poorly designed cycle lanes in the city and pedestrians walk all over them all the time.


[quote="FXR”]At the moment over 20,000 people a day cycle into Dublin. By 2020 the government plans to reach a target of 160,000 cycling to work daily. The city is not expanding like an elastic field to accommodate more and more traffic. The streets will not be any wider. [/quote]

Have you noticed bicycles are quite small? Don’t worry, far more than 160,000 a day would be able to fit.


[quote="FXR”]How many cyclists will die or suffer injury as a result of those plans? How many people will suffer broken bones or have a nervous breakdown after seeing someone run over? To just simply pour more and more people into an unregulated situation where people will do whatever they want regardless is a recipe for disaster. Saying that the number of injuries and deaths is low is not much use to 2 children who have lost a parent even if the statistics are good overall. If you're lying in a hospital with a brace screwed into either side of your skull to put tension on your spine being told you were in the right legally is not much comfort either.[/quote]

Cycling has been on the increase for years now in Dublin, yet your doom and gloom has not happened and there’s no signs of it happening.

What has happened is as the numbers of cyclists has increased the number of deaths and injuries has decreased – it’s called safety in numbers.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby gunter » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:08 am

Saw a cycle-cop 'police' the junction at Portobello Bridge this morning for the first time ever.

He just stood there at the traffic lights where cyclist usually barrel up the canal and crowd out the junction blocking the pedestrian crossing. Half a dozen bikers nearly rear-ended each other with the sudden realisation that the white line was being observed.

The cop then peddled off and normal practice resumed.

Just an observation, I'm not getting involved in this.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby Frank Taylor » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:57 pm

Garda traffic corps would be wrong to prioritise low risk over high risk activities.

97 people have been killed on Irish roads this year but just one (in Limerick city) was a cyclist. That incident was a collision between a cyclist and a car and we don't yet know who was at fault.

Many more people are cycling in Dublin now. Many of the 5,000 'Dublin bikes' trips undertaken are by inexperienced cyclists. Yet far fewer cyclists are being killed. So this is not the area to prioritise.

Many people reading this forum pay motor tax, use a bike and also buses and trains. It's simplistic to divide society into cyclists and drivers like animals in the zoo. The state doesn't lose any of my motor tax when I ride my bike but there are health benefits and a reduction in congestion and emissions and energy use.

Dublin city council has helped remove many of the trucks from the city through the 5-axle ban. It introduced lower speed limits in the city centre and banned cars from college green. So more people are cycling and fewer people are being killed which constitutes a success to most people. Fewer people cycle in Dublin than in comparable European cities so there is still some distance to travel.

Laws should of course be enforced but it would be wrong to direct resources in an inefficient manner. Cyclists present a danger to themselves more than they endanger other people. The primary purpose of the gardai is to protect citizens from other people, not from themselves. Education is probably a better approach.
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby gunter » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:54 pm

Frank Taylor wrote:
'. . . . . there are health benefits [ when I ride my bike ] . . . .'



There are health benefits, provided you don't get creamed by a truck turning left
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:06 pm

gintyc wrote: I'll make this clear: There is NO law stopping cyclist from using polls, trees or posts as long as they are not blocking footpaths.


If you’d be so good gintyc, can you point out exactly where in the video Dublin’s Bicycle Clutter it says “bicycles are illegally locked to poles etc”. Where and at what point and can you quote the statement as it appears in the video.

Also since you know the law on this issue can you provide the reference to the law that states specifically that bicycles can be locked to poles, trees and posts as long as they are not blocking footpaths?
FXR
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Re: Dublin's Bicycle Clutter

Postby FXR » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:18 pm

Frank Taylor wrote: Garda traffic corps would be wrong to prioritise low risk over high risk activities.


Based on talking to a few dozen Gardai this is the situation: for a Garda to prosecute a cyclists for a minor offence he would have to issue a summons. This would require a day in court. There is also problem of actually obtaining a valid ID at the time of the offence or failing that requiring a cyclists to accompany the Garda to the station. In other words the situation as it stands is a farce. Who on earth would want the entire dwindling Garda force tied up court dealing with cyclists.

The people to blame are those tasked with running the city. If there is a problem then it should reflect the nature of the offence. Controlling cyclists in regard to cycling in pedestrian areas and on footpaths should be in the hands of cycle wardens or it should just be legalised. To put this in context, today I watched a group of people dealing drugs on a city street in broad daylight. Two uniformed Gardai walked by them. One guy flung the bag of tabs under a car. The two Gardai just kept going.

Frank Taylor wrote: 97 people have been killed on Irish roads this year but just one (in Limerick city) was a cyclist. That incident was a collision between a cyclist and a car and we don't yet know who was at fault.
Many more people are cycling in Dublin now. Many of the 5,000 'Dublin bikes' trips undertaken are by inexperienced cyclists. Yet far fewer cyclists are being killed. So this is not the area to prioritise.


The figure last quoted in the Independent for people cycling into Dublin was 20,000 per day. Given the continuing increase in cyclists combined with the badly maintained roads, badly designed or absent cycle lanes and total lack of regulation and training do you think it's more likely that one or more cyclists are going to be killed or injured?

Frank Taylor wrote:Laws should of course be enforced but it would be wrong to direct resources in an inefficient manner. Cyclists present a danger to themselves more than they endanger other people. The primary purpose of the gardai is to protect citizens from other people, not from themselves. Education is probably a better approach.


The first people I contacted were cycling interests and those who appear to represent cycling. At first some suggested showing the photos as a cycling education slideshow. That would be fine by me. As the picture broadened and the evidence mounted the replies started to die off and then just about stopped all together.

Incidentally the reason for using still photos and blocking out the faces of the cyclists were based on advice by a friend in the Garda. By doing it in that manner no cyclists could be identified and even if they were the fact that it's a still photo means it's not evidence of movement and therefore can't be the basis of a prosecution. It's not about the individual cyclists it's more so about the people who should be running the city.

I still think, as unlikely as it seems, that the only way cyclists behaviour will change is for cyclist to take it upon themselves to make it happen. In this country I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the powers that be to catch up.
FXR
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