Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Antoine » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:34 pm

GrahamH wrote:The biggest and most important investment Thomas Street is ever likely to see for at least a decade is being planned right now, with works potentially beginning as early as a few months' time. Yet there is what must be bordering on zero public awareness of it. It is the construction of the Thomas Street - James's Street Quality Bus Corridor, currently at public consultation stage.


I have been asked by DCC to write an Archaeological Assessment of this scheme (I am a private archaeological consultant). I am just polishing it up at the moment, and came across this forum. I agree that this historically important axis is neglected, and this is important as it frames some of the most important archaeological sites in the city (esp medieval and industrial ones) and also attracts many lost tourists trying to find the Guinness attraction. I also agree that the QBC development presents a great opportunity. I am not sure how much impact my assessment will have, but thus far my main recommendations are:

-marking the sites of Newgate (at cornmarket) and James' Gate in some way. The former with posts perhaps, as at the University of Limerick, and the latter with a traffic calming constriction of the road.
-Retention of all original granite kerbs (these are present along most of Thomas Street and to the north of James' Street East). There are few other elements of street furniture of archaeological interest along this axis (the QBC corridor also includes High Street and Cornmarket by the way).
-Reuse of stored materials (DCC have large stores of granite) to surface the southern half of James' Street East pavement.

I would be interested to hear any other ideas the people here have.
Antoine
Member
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:14 pm

One or two good ideas there Antoine, are you sure you’re an archaeologist?

These are ten other points I’d like to see feature in any archaeological report on Thomas Street:

Going from east to west [Cornmarket to the Fountain].

1. Provide an information panel on Cornmarket recording the significance of the place to the medieval city and outlining the story of the merchant houses that once surrounded it including the many recorded cage-work and gabled houses.

2. Record, and possibly mark with a structure/sculpture, the location of the ‘city water conduit’ in Cornmarket, as depicted by Speed.

3. Record, and possibly mark in the street surface, the footprint of the 1700s arcaded Corn Market house [in a similar manner to that suggested for St. James’s Gate].

4. Carry out a detailed survey and inventory of the substantial medieval remains on the Chadwick’s site and devise a strategy for the conservation, explanation and presentation of these structures, including the west façade of the refectory? building embedded in the party wall to Kennedy’s pub.

5. Provide an information panel on the wide path to the west of John’s Lane Church to tell the story of St. John’s Priory, Vicar Street opposite, and the cage-work houses cleared from the site in the 18th century.

6. Provide an information panel in the vicinity of no. 36 Thomas Street telling the story of the ‘The Glib Market’, Joseph Fade and 18th century banking, and the significance of the Quaker community in the late 17th and early 18th century development of the area.

7. Provide an information panel at St. Catherine’s Church telling the story of the medieval monastery of St Thomas Court, the Georgian church, and particularly high-lighting the location in the street of the pivotal events surrounding the 1798 and 1803 rebellions.

8. Provide an information panel in the vicinity of the IAWS car park telling the story of the merchant houses of Thomas Street, particularly the early gabled houses and surviving ‘Dutch Billys’ opposite, with an account of some of the significant traders and craftsmen [from watch-makers to weavers] that once occupied the street.

9. Provide an information panel at St. James’s Gate telling the story of the outer defences of the city and the development of James’s Street including the roles of significant figures such as Sir Mark Ransford and the Huguenot Espinasse family as well as Arthur himself.

10. Provide an information panel at the ‘Fountain’ in James’s Street telling the story of the two St. James’s churches and the merchant and industrial heritage of the area.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Antoine » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:38 am

gunter wrote: These are ten other points I’d like to see feature in any archaeological report on Thomas Street


These are great ideas. Rather than erecting ten more information signs down Cornmarket and James’ Street (there are five at the moment I believe), perhaps it could be interesting for DCC to create a leaflet, available in Tourist Offices, which describes the history of everything you set out below. I wonder if Guinness’/Diego would be interested in funding it? The problem in erecting information signs about the ‘ten most historically important sites’, is that it involves selecting one type of site/period, above another, and defining that as the important thing, whereas in reality every bit of Thomas Street and James’ Street has changed as it evolved over time.

gunter wrote: 2. Record, and possibly mark with a structure/sculpture, the location of the ‘city water conduit’ in Cornmarket, as depicted by Speed.


Do you mean Jean Decer’s Fountain (1308) at the West end of High Street? I don’t think Speed marks any other water features in the Cornmarket area, nor does he mark the City Conduit/Aqueduct, which ran along the northern side of Thomas Street. The City Cistern was probably located behind the Guinness Buildings on James’ Street at St. James’ Basin. The City Watercourse ran from the Tongue Mount Argus north towards the basin, and fed the cistern.

gunter wrote: 4. Carry out a detailed survey and inventory of the substantial medieval remains on the Chadwick’s site and devise a strategy for the conservation, explanation and presentation of these structures, including the west façade of the refectory? building embedded in the party wall to Kennedy’s pub.


This is very interesting; I will have to look into it, though it falls outside the scope of this study. The National Monuments Service files note a ‘dwelling’ at this location (Recorded Monument DU018-020-556), but I had no idea there was a lot of upstanding medieval fabric.
Antoine
Member
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Antoine » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:41 pm

Actually I don't think Speed is depicting the fountain. Instead, he shows he Market Cross at the Junction of Christchurch Place and High Street.
Antoine
Member
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:55 pm

The 1308 'fountain' was what I was thinking of, and yes you're right it's not on Speed.

Image

As depicted, the fountain/conduit had a very destinctive and elegant form, in the tradition of the great public 'crosses' being erected in England and elsewhere at this time. My suggestion was that it might be worth looking at creating a sculptural form/structure on Cornmarket to record and possibly reflect that this significant medieval monument/fountain once stood here.

We spend all this time and effort accumulating historical and archaeological knowledge, but we're not great at devising ways to bring it all to life for the average citizen who mightn't always have the time to visit every exhibition, but might pause for a few moments at a well designed information panel or a finely sculpted work of art.

Much of modern Cornmarket consists of a dismal collection of traffic islands ringed with steel crash barriers. Giving Cornmarket a new focal point that informed people of the former status of this place as probably the primary market space of the city is the kind of thing that might be worth looking at, IMO.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:30 pm

Image

Image

StephenC wrote:Plans have been lodged for an interesting new addition to Thomas Street incorporating a refurbished existing building at 88 Thomas Street and a modern commercial building to the rear along John Street. John Street runs adjacent to St Augustine and St John's Church. The new addition is very reminicent of the infill development on Essex Street beside the Front Lounge.

The plans can be viewed here 4140/10
http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=4140/10&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1406444%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href='wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=1758477%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1406444%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E'%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E


Glad to see the revised proposal for this. It has permission now.

The original proposal sought to demolish the corner Georgian building, No. 88. Dublin City Council went ahead and granted permission even though they had just designated Thomas Street an Architectural Conservation Area. It was overturned by An Bord Pleanala following an appeal by An Taisce - http://pleanala.ie/casenum/235305.htm

KMD architects, with David Slattery consultants in tow, were putting up a very pushy, aggressive case to get the building down. The Board's inspector actually recommended a grant of permission, but the Board itself wasn't buying it and decried the applicant's "complete demolition and site clearance" approach, saying No. 88 formed an established part of the streetscape and it was the policy of the planning authority (DCC) to preserve such buildings.

The new scheme is quite a nice example of the mix of old and new, and nicely presented in a report by KMD. Makes you wonder why this approach wasn't taken originally.




Image

Meanwhile, there's been shenanigans here at No. 81, another 4-storey Georgian in the same block and Protected Structure. It got permission for refurbishment in 2006 under 3757/06. Work had begun but was stalled for ages. Structural problems had developed on the upper floors of the front wall. Instead of getting it tied, reinforced properly etc. they illegally demolished it to first-floor level over Xmas 2010 and did a quick rebuild in cavity block and non-matching brick. Following enforcement notice, a retention application was lodged to retain and complete this work under 2094/11. The DCC Conservation Officer has requested extensive AI .......... but the end result is the avoidable loss of an historic brick elevation and another cut into Thomas Street's heritage.
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:18 pm

These are the pictures again of the important terrace of 18th century merchant houses on Thomas Street, beside St. Catherine's Church, where the stripping of the lead and copper from the roofs last year has apparently sparked no action whatsoever, either from Dublin City Council, or from NAMA [the houses in question were owned by a Liam Carroll company].

The corner house [no. 29] is a 19th century rebuild of the house that appears in the Malton print. No. 30 is probably an early 18th century, Georgian altered, Dutch Billy which retains its cruciform roof and corner chimney stack. No. 32 is the rare surviving twin-roofed house, again probably dating to the first half of the 18th century and again featuring a corner chimney stack and modernising Georgian facade. No. 33 is a mid 18th century Georgian with 'Protected Structure' status.
Image
Image
As well as being individually of huge intrinsic value and respresenting a veritable who's who of 18th century Dublin house types, the terrace as a whole forms the immediate setting of St. Catherine's Church, which has the finest surviving 18th century church facade in the city.
Image
The roof of no. 32 has been open in several places since shortly after Carroll bought the premises and the copper was stripped from the previously sound roof of no. 30 more than a year ago.
Image
In the above view from July '09 the roof of no. 30 is intact with the copper soaker still in place. In the view below from last year the copper has been stripped.
Image
Action is needed urgently or these important houses, and the record of our street-architecture that they represent, will be irreparably damaged.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby aj » Wed May 11, 2011 9:51 pm

Excuse my ignornance on matter legal but can the Derelict Sites Act not used to force DCC into action?
aj
Member
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:51 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Wed May 11, 2011 10:01 pm

Its DCC that enforces the Act
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby kefu » Thu May 12, 2011 2:16 pm

City Council has no budget for getting involved in derelict sites and from what I can gather, has no inclination either.
They would have to be in a far worse condition than this and as long as the owner maintains the pretence that he is looking after them, the council's only interest is in stopping trespassing/break-ins etc.
As long as they are relatively secure, the City Council will take little or no interest in them.
I suppose in fairness to them, if they were to take over every derelict site in Dublin city, they would become nearly as big a landowner as NAMA.
kefu
Senior Member
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby aj » Thu May 12, 2011 2:37 pm

If a derelict building is reported are DCC not legally obliged to act under the derelict sites act 1990?

By there own definition from the website surely these building would be considered derelict.

"A site or property can be classified as ‘derelict’ if it meets the following criteria:
It has accumulated a lot of litter or other waste.
It contains dangerous or ruined structures.
It contains land or structures that are in a neglected or unsightly condition."
aj
Member
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:51 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Sun May 15, 2011 11:21 pm

Looking at such dereliction it's hard to believe that we'd just come through a rabid building boom.

Does'nt look good on our behalf if 'Her Maj' is planning a trip up to Guinness's for a pint!
User avatar
GregF
Old Master
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:00 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Mon May 16, 2011 12:06 am

Ha, yes I was working out the logistics of the trip to Guinness, and how, like coming from the airport in the 1980s, a half presentable route might be formulated through the trail of destruction left in Dublin 8 in the wake of the Celtic Tiger.

Judging by the barricades, parking restrictions and hoards of Gardaí currently wandering aimlessly through the area, it appears the Queen will be driven from Farmleigh on Wednesday morning directly to Guinness via the scenic route of Steeven's Lane, James's Street, charming Echlin Street, Grand Canal Place and onto Market Street in the heart of the Guinness complex. Cleverly picturesque and easily secured.

A courtesy call to Government Buildings immediately follows on the itinerary, so one imagines it will be the same route back to the Liffey for a swift spin down the quays to Merrion Street. It's a shame the northern quays will probably be used for this and most other journeys, as views of the public buildings against the city grain can only be attained from the southern quays. We wouldn't want her to think she was in Manchester again.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4589
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Mon May 16, 2011 10:03 pm

Excellent Graham! ....and at least it preserves some of our dignity by avoiding the age old scandalous eyesores of the city.
User avatar
GregF
Old Master
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:00 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:48 pm

Image

There goes the Gilbey's shopfront again [exclamation mark]

ImageImage

Master craftsmen expressing themselves through the medium of plywood, and the art of the shopfront goes down another notch.

Leaving aside the morality of this, how is this legal?
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:24 pm

It isnt. But perhaps this is the City Council expressing the need for a balance between excessive regulation which prohibits businesses from starting up and, one supposes, more ephemeral considerations, such as the quality of the street or the law for that matter. Then again, maybe planning enforcement will be on them like a ton of bricks once a complaint is made.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:32 pm

Needless to say its a protected structure, despite its substantial rebuilding a few years back.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:26 pm

Not sure if Dole-Office-Blue is an appropriate choice for our premier Palladian church facade.

ImageImage
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:10 am

Bloody hell - why not the grey.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:06 am

Image

The grey looked superb.

I think it's just a case of someone making an unfortunate choice.

That particular church community might be a bit on the sandal side, but they do deserve great credit for recuing the structure when there didn't seem to be any prospect of finding an appropriate use for the building back in the late 80s/early 90s. When they first moved in, I remember the way they just went about replacing broken window panes, week after week, they didn't turn vigilante or stick up security screens, they just stuck to their task and out lasted the vandals. It was very impressive to watch.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:29 am

A quiet word from a concerned local maybe?
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby gunter » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:42 am

Good idea.

Let us know how Graham gets on.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:24 pm

LOL...poor Graham... Dublin's arbiter of taste
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GrahamH » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:17 pm

Leave me outta this one!

Been drumming the fingers the past few days about what to do with this disaster. The painters seem to be operating under the cover of darkness too, so there isn't even anyone to chat to. At this rate, the poor railings will be next.

As for the ongoing unauthorised works to the former Handel pub next door... What a botch they're making of a once marvellously sophisticated pub front. Why can't people recognise a good job and leave well enough alone!
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4589
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby PVC King » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:35 pm

That was a particularly well executed shopfront. Seemed a lot more digital hub than bargain booze
PVC King
 

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland



cron