Exempted development concurrently with planning permission

Exempted development concurrently with planning permission

Postby bluestar » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:17 am

I have confused myself at this stage, so forgive me if this is a bit garbled.

My understanding has been that you cannot carry out works that are normally exempt concurrently with implementing a planning permission. I understood that exempted development cannot contravene a condition of a planning permission and given that the first condition usually says that the application must be implemented in accordance with the plans and particulars submitted, development that would normally be exempt would not comply with that first condition. The other part of that argument is that you can only carry out exempted development on existing building and uses, not those that are under construction or in the process of being altered in accordance with a planning permission.

I am in a circular argument with somebody, where I cant properly explain why any of that makes any sense, given that you could carry out the exempted development before or after implementing the planning permission. I can't find anything in the acts or regulations that prevents exempted development being carried out concurrently with a planning permission. Is there something I am missing? Is there a case which clarifies this? Or is it just a matter of custom and practice?
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Re: Exempted development concurrently with planning permissi

Postby pico » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:55 pm

bluestar,
Have experienced the same confusion myself - permitted development v exempted development - and as often with Irish Planning Law, I do not believe there is a definitive answer, just different interpretations.

Does a grant with conditions (permitted development) override one's right under a different part of legislation (exempted development) ?
Agreeing with that is the failsafe cautious approach. However, if you want to stick your neck out, & there were no nosy neighbours around, you could say no, & proceed & certify under exempted development (assuming it satisfies all the rules).
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Re: Exempted development concurrently with planning permissi

Postby onq » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:25 pm

At the start of last year there was a consensus on Archiseek and elsewhere based on decisions received.

I have since seen an engineer drive a coach and four through the planning laws.

  • Lodging a permission, seeing it appealed
  • Getting a section 5, starting under that
  • Lodging a second smaller permission
  • Exceeding the section 5, apparently building the smaller permission
  • Opening windows without permission on 1st floor elevations
  • Getting permission for the first larger scheme
  • Seeing to "agree " the works
  • LA holding the line.
  • Rear extension roof design changed.
  • Seeking retention for the revised works and getting it.

Un-believeable, but that's how it goes sometimes.

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Re: Exempted development concurrently with planning permissi

Postby Bren88 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:07 am

I think you are over looking something rather obviosu in the exempt regs
pico wrote:Does a grant with conditions (permitted development) override one's right under a different part of legislation (exempted development) ?

No it doesn't over-ride the permission. But that's not important.

Take the obvious example of building a house, as per the grant but with a 40 sq.m extension.
Many sugguest they can do this as its extension is exempt. But they are wrong.

If you check the exemption regs, its is only exempt to build an extension to a dwelling, therefore it must first be construicted. A slab and half built walls aren't a dwelling. You can of course be clever about it and get the roof on and leave the internal finishing until the extension is built. or get all the foundations in at once (sub ground work won't need planning imo)

The same applies to an exempt shed or garage conversion.


Those are the two that I am familar with regarding this issue, the "curtiledge of a house" applies to almost all the first exemptions. The ones it doesn't apply to would be painting and plasterign a wall, but its not an issue here as obvious they have to be built first.

The change of use exemptions doen't really have an issue here imo.
A whole load of exemptins are for state bodies, so not an issue here either.

Blustar, is your example not covered by the above.
I can think of some contrived situations, where a 30sqm is grant and a 40 could be built under exemption. But I don't think there is merit is getting into those example.
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Re: Exempted development concurrently with planning permissi

Postby bluestar » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:33 am

Thanks for your comments.

The case I had in mind refers to an application for a change of use of a commercial building. The argument was that a mezzanine could be built without permission as it would not effect the external appearance of the building. The issues were:

1. if the mezzanine could be built as exempted development at the same time as the implementation of a change of use?

2. if it couldn't, at what point would a change of use be completed, thus allowing exempted development to occur?

But I have since come across an ABP decision, which makes it very clear that the construction of a mezzanine is neither 'improvement' nor 'alteration' in any circumstance. It boils down to intensification constituing a material change of use.

I would still be interested in any ideas about the second question though. At what point is a development complete? Particularly if it is a change of use and there is no immediate need to get it certified for sale.

"At the start of last year there was a consensus on Archiseek and elsewhere based on decisions received."

By the way, would you mind pointing me in the direction of the thread or the decisions you mention ONQ?

Thanks for your help.
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Re: Exempted development concurrently with planning permissi

Postby onq » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:29 am

Given the changes to the site I'm note sure whether the search engine function still works.

Given the almost 1,100 posts I have made here I'm not sure where it was mentioned.

Can I respectfully request you google search this with my name as the author?

Restrict the search to the site http://www.archiseek.com or IIRC two.archiseek.com.

I think there was some change in name for the forums as opposed to the primary domain name.

Too much going on at the momen to spend a lot of time doing research so you'll get a chance to develope new skills.

Just remember- mya poinst above shows its possible to bend the law backwards and get away with it, bit it was for a private dwelling.

The public good wasn't seriously affected and the issues raised in the objection and appeal weren't insurmountable - large commercial building would be different.

Brena has also give you some advice.

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Last edited by onq on Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Exempted development concurrently with planning permissi

Postby onq » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:33 am

On your question of completion, there are varying definitions of "complete."

But if you ask waffly questions, you'll get highly qualified answers.

State the question fully and you'll get better responses.

:angel:

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Re: Exempted development concurrently with planning permissi

Postby Bren88 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:14 am

bluestar wrote:The case I had in mind refers to an application for a change of use of a commercial building. The argument was that a mezzanine could be built without permission as it would not effect the external appearance of the building. The issues were:

1. if the mezzanine could be built as exempted development at the same time as the implementation of a change of use?

2. if it couldn't, at what point would a change of use be completed, thus allowing exempted development to occur?


I think this is the root of your mistake.
The mezzanine needs planning permission. The exemption of internal alterations applies only to dwellings.
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Re: Exempted development concurrently with planning permissi

Postby corkblow-in » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:46 am

Another issue - Is the mezzanine shown on the drawings accompanying the fire safety certificate ? If not then you need to apply for a new one.
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Re: Exempted development concurrently with planning permissi

Postby onq » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:27 am

Well, there used to be an differecne between office and industrial storage buildings if I recall correctly.

Office buildings usually tied into an urban matrix and so numbers of cloors, fenestration and building volume and occupancy all wenr together.

Industrial storage buildings went on volume [this is goign bac ka decade or more, so I may stand corrected] and so the addition of a mezzanine - as oppsoed simply stacking boxes/pallets/containers high on super-flat floors - was less of an issue.

But where people are, there even on mezzxanine floors, there are specific issues to address - I think BS: 5588 - Part 11 may refer, although that's from memory and it may have been superseded again [at ST£400 a go, just to preserve the professions as teh provinces of the monied middle classes] in the past two years.

Either way, the OP doesn't give enough information - a "comercial building" could mean anything...

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