Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:48 am

gunter wrote:Here's another photograph of the east end of High Street in 1963 with, if I'm not mistaken, ctesiphon's dad on his bike off to buy icecream for the chizzlers in the local shop.


Close! It's actually Uncle George. Very similar looking, 'tis true, but my dad always rode a single speed, whereas George was a fan of the three-speed- 'A power for the hills,' he'd say.

PS Great photos. I've only ever seen the 'After' pics in The Destruction of Dublin, which give the feeling of expansive openness without the sense of the enclosure that was lost.

Reminds me of the Ivor Cutler poem (possibly not quoted accurately- I'm doing it from memory, but it's close):

He laughed in a manner I can only describe by showing you a picture of my thumb before it was broken.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby gunter » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:11 pm

It's one thing to try and get a physical picture of a street like High Street before it became a windswept duel carriageway, but it's also possible (just) to get some feel for the street as a faded hub of the commercial / social life of the city. We know from sources like 'Whalley's News Letter' and 'The Dublin Post Man' that there were a good number of pubs and inns in the High Street area in the early 18th Century. 'The Sign of the Parrot' in High Street has a nice pirate feel to it and there was 'The Sign of The Sugar Loaf'' in Back Lane, near Taylors' Hall. They were a bit more up-market in Skinners' Row (Christchurch Place) where their equivalent of Starbucks was 'Darley's Coffee House' in 1715.

At random, I looked up the 'Freeman's Journal' for a date in may 1780 to search for references to High Street, and a couple of snippets turned up:

[INDENT]Leasehold interest for sale:

The house and concerns in High Street at no. 64, opposite St Michael's Church (i-e the derelict site in front of the Synod Hall in Paddy Healy photograph), formerly occupied by Mr Wilson, Shoemaker. The house is one of the best situations for business in the city, comodious and extensive having three large rooms on a floor, with brass locks and grates and every other necessary fixture. There are also good vaults and cellerage in excellent order. The purchaser or tennant will not have the least turn of money to expend; and there cannot be a better standing for the linen, wollen or haberdashery business.

Apply at no. 3 High Street.
(i-e. the local auctioneer in the big three bay house with the dodgy scaffolding on the opposite side of the street).[/INDENT]

Mr. Wilson Shoemaker! There was also a James Molloy, Shoemaker advertising for business at no. 62 High Street. How's that for continuity, remember all the medieval shoes and soles dug up in the High Street excavations.

The same edition of the newspaper (27th May 1780) had notice of the forthcoming meeting, at 48 High Street, of 'The Universal Free Debating Society'. In this case 'free' didn't extend to the admittance charge, which was listed as 'a British sixpence'.

The topic for discussion:

[INDENT]'Whether man or woman discovers more weakness under the dominion of love'[/INDENT]

and, if time permits:

[INDENT]'Whether the British Parliament is authorised to exercise a legislative power to bind the people of Ireland'.[/INDENT]

Obviously time didn't permit, because the latter topic was up again for discussion on 12th June, with the reserve motion a provocative: 'Whether the Divine or the Physician is of more utility to mankind?'.

Debates started at 8.00 pm and were to be concluded by 10.00.


I do realize that this is totally useless information.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby GrahamH » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:17 pm

*wipes spluttered coffee off monitor*

Great stuff, gunter.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby gunter » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:32 pm

The street numbers appear to have been up-dated in the 19th century, but from what I can make out, there were no more than 65 or 66 houses on High Street in the 18th century, which would mean that Mr. Wilson's Shoemakers premises at no. 64 would have been one of the four High Street houses that we can see in Malton's view of the Tholsel.

Excepting the corner house on Nicholas Street, these houses were clearly Georgian masked 'Dutch Billys' which would accord with the auctioneer's description of three room on a floor, i.e. front room, back room and return room. Malton incidentally refers to High Street as 'a very ancient commercial street'.

Image
Of course, somebody has to park a bloody carriage in the way.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby GrahamH » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:02 pm

Glad to see even Malton didn't have the time to wait around till his 18th century equivalent of a yellow cliff on wheels moved out of shot. To think it sat there for the full two weeks it took him to compose that.

Talking of different worlds:

Nicholas Street c.1900.

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Nicholas 'Street' today.

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Both taken from exactly the same position at Christchurch. I never knew the remains of St. Nicholas Within were moved back to accommodate road widening. Difficult to gather if that's more surprising than the fact the remains were even kept at all.

The Dublin Corporation block was also extended/altered to the left since the original picture was taken.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby GrahamH » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:35 pm

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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:37 pm

Very interesting Graham - I hadn't seen photos of Nicholas Street before it was demolished. J.J. Carroll's looked like my kind of pub too.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby Devin » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:45 pm

Whao, unrecogniseable!

More evidence here of the street-pattern genocide that occured in the area in the late 20th century:

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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby gunter » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:46 pm

Here's a few more photographs from the 1960s.

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This view looks east from Cornmarket. The vacant edge in the foreground would have been the site of the two corner properties shown on Devin's 1909 map which defined the east edge of Cornmarket, with High Street to the left and Back Lane to the right. Taylors Hall peeping up to the right of the billboard.

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A detail of the shops on High street. Murphy's is behind the bus with The Magnet' newsagents next door and the 'Yankee Bookshop' next to it.

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St. Audoen's Church from Back Lane, seen through a gap in the streetscape caused by the demolition of houses on High Street.

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A clearer photograph of the east end of High Street with Fitsgerald's shop at no. 1 & 2 beside the Synod Hall. Fitzgeralds also had a shop on Thomas Street, recently a Chinese grocery, and presently under threat of demolition as part of the Frawleys proposal. Fitzgerald's were reputed to be the only shop in Dublin to hang their clothes outside the shop.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby Devin » Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:06 am

gunter wrote:Here's a few more photographs from the 1960s.

Image
This view looks east from Cornmarket. The vacant edge in the foreground would have been the site of the two corner properties shown on Devin's 1909 map which defined the east edge of Cornmarket, with High Street to the left and Back Lane to the right. Taylors Hall peeping up to the right of the billboard.
Wow, where are you getting these from gunter? It’s the most intriguing and most changed part of the city but there are fewest old photos of it.

Another sad aerial picture here from a few years later, probably about 1970, with the whole of the south side of High Street now down, except for that bizzare long billboard. I’m just going to have a little cry here that the main street of the medieval city was turned into a motorway! :-)

The oblong shape of about-to-be-obliterated-for-all-time Cornmarket still clear on the left. There is a great view looking west on Cornmarket pre-demolition published in Frank McD’s Saving the City, but one view of the city I’ve never seen is the view of Cornmarket in the opposite direction pre-demolition, with those two houses at the junction of Back Lane and High Street. Would love to see that, drool! am I sad?

Also, interesting gabled warehouse-type building to the left front of Tailors’ Hall. Wonder what it was?

Image

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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby gunter » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:16 pm

Devin wrote:. . one view of the city I’ve never seen is the view of Cornmarket in the opposite direction pre-demolition, with those two houses at the junction of Back Lane and High Street. Would love to see that,


That has proven to be an illusive view.

A slightly older Aerofilm shot than your one shows the corner house (no. 25 High Street) still intact, but again it's taken from the rear.

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The following shots are as close as I got, they were published (for the want of a better word) in a little Fas pamphlet called 'Aspects of Saint Audoen's, the parish with three beginnings' in 1993. From what I recall, it took a year to track down any decent photographs of High Street and in the end, it was G. A. Duncan on the Cabra Road who turned up trumps with those shots of the buses and the billboard.

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This is a copy from the booklet with the 1960s Duncan photograph superimposed on a 1952 photograph from the same direction, which shows the corner onto Cornmarket with those ellusive building still there. The lamp post is the same in each picture.

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25, 26 and 27 High Street in 1952

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A detail of that picture with a glimpse of old Cornmarket beyond the corner of no. 25. Substantial four storey brick buildings with Victorian gabled facades!

The 1952 photographs were tracked down to a photographic archive in RTE of all places. Not sure who the photographer was, could have been G. A. Duncan again.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby Devin » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:24 pm

Excellent, thanks.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby GregF » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:13 am

Great photos.......didn't the uniformity of the street look so much better too when compared to now. The park that's there today with the overgrown wild plants looks a bit shit as well as the piecemeal developments across the dual carriageway road. The charm and character that surrounded Christchurch has been long lost. It's a great pity Dublin became so poor, even a greater pity we had an appaling history and everything suffered!
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby lostexpectation » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:41 pm

if someone suggested now to build buildings back along that line in front of st audeons they'd be accused of blocking the view of the church... !

i don't know why anybody would want to build something new there its so stuck on its own, its not near any other shops.

it such a wide road to cross, how about a lightweight X shaped pedestrian bridge that meets in the middle to act as viewing platform for medieval city.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby Rory W » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:42 pm

lostexpectation wrote:if someone suggested now to build buildings back along that line in front of st audeons they'd be accused of blocking the view of the church... !

i don't know why anybody would want to build something new there its so stuck on its own, its not near any other shops.

it such a wide road to cross, how about a lightweight X shaped pedestrian bridge that meets in the middle to act as viewing platform for medieval city.


How about a reduction in street width to human/city scale rather than dual carriageway scalwe
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby phil » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:53 pm

I think I am with you on that Rory. What I find about this street, and general intersection of streets is that it divides this part of the city from the Temple Bar/Parliament Street/Castle area of town in a really negative way. This can both be read visually and experienced as a pedestrian in terms of trying to negotiate it from day-to-day.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby GrahamH » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:49 pm

28/2/2011

Probably the last photograph ever taken of our dear pram shop, snapped on the 9th of February.

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The truncated remains of an end building of a Wide Streets Commission terrace that formerly fronted High Street, the building was declared dangerous a few weeks ago and was demolished over the past few days - apparently by the OPW.

A week later in the morning mist.

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The spine wall.

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The next day.

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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby GrahamH » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:57 pm

The wide spacing of its windows would make one wonder if this was an earlier building. A substantial beam straddled the front room, while in the fourth and fifth pictures above, the wall between the staircase and the back room appears to have been entirely timber stud.

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Lots of salvaged timbers.

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24th of February.

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All of the building now appears to be down. It has to be said there is now a much more coherent relationship between the two St. Audeon's, and much more picturesque views of both also. One wonders how this space will not be resolved - more car parking?
Last edited by GrahamH on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby Paul Clerkin » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:01 am

A good few years ago, when this thread was started, I had emails from interested parties demanding its removal.....
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby hutton » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:53 am

Paul Clerkin wrote:A good few years ago, when this thread was started, I had emails from interested parties demanding its removal.....


Paul Clerkin March 03, 1999 wrote:My earliest memories of High Street is with both sides pulled down or about to be for the new dual carriageway. I agree with Paul on the pram shop that it should be removed btw.


>wink<
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby Rory W » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:55 pm

So do we know what we're getting here or is it just an extension to the windswept 'streetscape' of High Street
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Re: Zap the childrens shop - High Street

Postby kefu » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:31 pm

Maybe a statue of Sean Dunne, Sean Fitzpatrick and Michael Fingleton.
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