Is it really now time to consider restriction of service??

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:32 pm

henno wrote:
onq wrote:Restriction of the provision of architectural services to Architects and their tied agents.

Persons in other professions employing architectural graduates and architectural technicians to provide architectural services

Thsi is a total bastardisation of the profession.
Something's got to give.

ONQ.


well well well, are we now seeing circling of the wagons that the BCA has always threatened??

im not going to turn this into a yet another techie v arch discussion, but the above post (while selectively quoted, retains ethos) is EXACTLY the kind of thinking that draws a huge wedge in the architectural profession. Like it or not, technicians are architectural professionals, and as such deserve as much chance to provide "architectural services" as architects. If persons in 'other professions' (assuming QS, Engs etc here) are engaging architectural graduates and technicians to provide "architectural services" then shouldnt they be allowed to provide the service they had been qualified to do????


The services they have been qualified to do is to provide technician information to architects after three years of a technically focussed course - there is very little design content in their course.
This doesn't make them competent to design buildings, just to detail the designs of others - this is the chip on their shoulders they all seem to have.
The only ones who seem to get beyond thsi are the ones who go on to become architects.

Like it or not, at the formal education level ARCHITECTURE as a profession and an art form is being split into a "design orientated" syllabus and a "technology" orientated syllabus.... two sides of the one profession. Older established architects may not understand, accept or agree with this as they have trained and practised in both aspects...

I qualified in 1990 and I understand this very well.
Technicians are trained to think about components and building physics [tom some degree] not about developing a design to both planning stage and on-site to the completion stage.
Another year of professional practice studies or M&E 101 makes them better at answering technical questions, it doesn't make them architects or even architects-lite
On the actual topic..... (putting on my devils advocate mask!!)...

1. restriction DOES exist in that the practise of nixers is ILLEGAL


Nonsense in relation to restriction - services are not restricted.
Technicians who are operating as architects are already beginning to feel the heat as untrained persons and draughtsmen on the dole and working from home are taking the business from them too.
Nixers are not illegal as long as you declare them for tax purposes and they do not breach your contract of employment.
However under the Health and Safety regulations the Designer carries special responsibility and like everyone must be competent to carry out his/her task.
Technicians are not trained as designers - ergo.
2. restriction on one profession is narrow sighted....

One definition of a profession is a group composed of highly trained people providing competent specialised services to the public and the state.
Its neither narrow minded or short sighted to restrict access to competent persons or to assess those persons - it is good practice.

if restriction existing in the architectural profession, will it also exist in the mechanic profession??

The Mechanic is a tradesman, but yes, that trade in particular should be restricted.
I don't want an idiot fettling a ton of metal that could kill someone if the brakes failed.
Building trades are effectively restricted by the Safety Health and Welfare at Work legislation requiring all persons to be competent to carry out their assigned tasks.
cabinet making??

Cabinet Making is a craft I think, but restricting it is fine by me, not that many would be competent enough to do attempt cabinet making - the hierarchy in woodworking in terms of growing skill level runs Carpenter, Joiner, Cabinet Maker.
carpet laying ???

Neither a trade nor a profession.
etc etc ad nauseum........ what is so special about the architectural profession that it deserves special legislation to restrict????

If someone is at that stage in their life where buildings are merely used to support bodily function the importance of the built environment may be lost, but for the rest of us it is vitally important.
Even for people with little cerebral appreciation of buildings, they are aware of the support they bring to human activity.

We spend half our lives awake in homes or workplaces with another quarter in activities in recreational pursuits that are normally supported by buildings in some way, while the last quarter is spent sleeping - again usually in some sort of building.

Better built environments and buildings offer significantly increased life expectancy and quality of life - this is a given.
They do this all the time, 24/7/365 - I shouldn't ahve to explain this - you should know.
if a dodgy mechanic fecks up servicing a car, a person could pay with his/her life.... would that profession deserve to be regulated ahead of a profession that doesnt kill people (only careers)....

I have already confirmed that the trade of mechanic should be regulated.
In case you weren't aware [ where have you been for the last thirty years] badly designed buildings *do* kill people.
The quality of design here in Ireland tends to mitigate against such disasters but laypersons shouldn't go around assuming they know much about buildings any more than they should assume they are competent to carry out operations or prescribe medicine [Pharmacists take note].

Building Collapses:
The Hyatt Hotel Walkway collapse is probably the most famous collapse in America not attributed to a terrorist attack
http://mecholsky.mse.ufl.edu/EMA4913-14 ... rticle.pdf
In developed countries, where the technical expertise and knowledge is available, unscrupulous developers can put people's lives at risk:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampoong_D ... e_collapse
Buildings in many third world countries still do not meet international building code standards.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/113 ... -toll.html
Deaths in Mombasa as building collapses http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNeHmxiygFc

Health Risks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mold_health_issues

Fire Risks:
http://www.stardustsupport.com/cms/inde ... &Itemid=37

At least do some cursory reading up on the subject before commenting.
oh and ONQ, what exactly is an Architects "tied agent"?

They provide services to them, not to the public.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby missarchi » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:53 am

Lawyers operate a particularly Byzantine form of protection, whereby bar associations are limited to geographical locations, and an attorney in one region may be prohibited from practicing in another. what does that sound like?

The operation of closed professions, which include architects, civil engineers, hairdressers, opticians, real estate agents, speech therapists and bakers, has been described by IOBE

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/wor ... 06860.html
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:20 pm

Interesting article, but again, its apples and oranges.

I'm not talking about restricting access to the profession from other countries affecting the free movement of goods and services.
I'm talking about the provision of professional services by people without a prescribed qualification or even a technicians qualification.

Greece seems to be operating a "guild" system where similarly qualified persons from other countries cannot get a look in.
Mind you I noted the reference to graduates with interest, they still have it good.
€530/mth seems a lot more when you're on the dole.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:59 pm

ONce again, recruitment sites assail my inbox.

Once again, I am depressed from reading their offerings.

http://www.jobrapido.ie/?w=architect&l=&p=19

Not one "real" architect amongst them - the Title has become an Adjective.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby henno » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:46 pm

onq wrote:The services they have been qualified to do is to provide technician information to architects after three years of a technically focussed course - .


my apologies onq... i am probably confusing you when i refer to the professional technician, i am doing so because it has become the vernacular... many persons in the built environment do not understand the difference between a technician and a technologist. It is the 'technologist' that i am referring to, and i suppose i should have clarified that in my previous post.
The technologist also holds a level 8 qualification in the field or architecture.

The Architectural Technologist a level of technical professionalism above the "architects technician" stage.....

Technologists are qualified to receive the architects design and to analyse, synthesise and evaluate those design factors to produce a communication to the contractor to deliver the project. After the design stage, the technologist is most qualified to deliver this project due to their indepth knowledge of building science, associated specialities, legal requirements and project goals. The architect is to be considered part of the design team to input their specific skills in the design field. In many cases a technologist is the design team leader.

onq wrote:Technicians are trained to think about components and building physics [tom some degree] not about developing a design to both planning stage and on-site to the completion stage.


I would challange you on this. I think you need to do some investigating into architectural technology courses. Technicians are SPECIFICALLY educated to develop a design through planning through to before site workings to on-site supervision to completion stage. Who do you think is more qualified to check the compliance with fire regulations on site??? the architect or the person who design the method of compliance??

I graduated from your old alma mater in 1999. I can confirm to you that both Contract administration and law were part of my syllabus.

I specifically took issue with you stating that "architectural services" should be restricted to architects. I never challenged your point that technicians are not formally educated in design studies (although some AT courses DO provide a contextualisation design program). I agree and accept that point. However, if you had asserted that "architectural design services" should be restricted then obviously i would have a different opinion to my previous post. Can you please clarify if thats what you actually meant?

As a member of CIAT and striving towards MCIAT status, i can assure you that should a restriction of "architectural services" be purported by whomever, technicians and technologists will be considered inclusive in who is qualified to offer these services.

onq wrote:Building Collapses:
The Hyatt Hotel Walkway collapse is probably the most famous collapse in America not attributed to a terrorist attack
http://mecholsky.mse.ufl.edu/EMA4913-14 ... rticle.pdf
In developed countries, where the technical expertise and knowledge is available, unscrupulous developers can put people's lives at risk:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampoong_D ... e_collapse
Buildings in many third world countries still do not meet international building code standards.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/113 ... -toll.html
Deaths in Mombasa as building collapses http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNeHmxiygFc

Health Risks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mold_health_issues

Fire Risks:
http://www.stardustsupport.com/cms/inde ... &Itemid=37

At least do some cursory reading up on the subject before commenting.

ONQ.


thanks for reinforcing my point that professional building scientists are required as part of the provision of architectural services to the public.
henno
Senior Member
 
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 12:07 pm

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:17 pm

Henno,

There is a huge amount to what you have said and I agree with a lot of it, but equally I am aghast with the apparent underming of the standing of the profession by what looks like a glorified technican class.

I'll think on this a bit before replying if you don't mind, because I think you're heading for a lowest common denominator - minus the design training and adding bits of the engineering and mechanical and electrical engineering professions.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby missarchi » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:18 pm

What about frank? was he allwright?
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby henno » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:21 am

onq wrote:Henno,

There is a huge amount to what you have said and I agree with a lot of it, but equally I am aghast with the apparent underming of the standing of the profession by what looks like a glorified technican class.

I'll think on this a bit before replying if you don't mind, because I think you're heading for a lowest common denominator - minus the design training and adding bits of the engineering and mechanical and electrical engineering professions.

ONQ.


hi ONQ,

without seeming to be brown-nosing here, buy you know that i also agree with a lot of your opinions when it comes to issues such as the BCA etc.

However i must strongly argue that your view of "the profession" seems to be very narrowly focused.

Yes, on the majority of smaller scale projects the architect should be competent enough to be be able to do most of the duties od the technician, in that the architects construction and regulatory knowledge should be adequate enough to be able to makes on going technological decisions.

However, as the scale of projects grow, the gulf between this "adequate technological knowledge" and the "artistic prowess" of the architect is widened to such a degree that one of both of these competencies will be affected. as i hav esaid vefore, there is a conscious and deliberate divergence of these competencies at the educational stage of the architectural profession. The 'architect' is as firmly focused on the 'design and concept' of archietcture as the technician / technologist is on the 'analysis and synthesis' of architecture.
henno
Senior Member
 
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 12:07 pm

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:33 pm

Looking back on this I see you're using quotation marks for two phrases in your comments, which I cannot seem to find

"adequate technological knowledge"

"artistic prowess"

You might clarify the reference Henno when you get a minute.

I agree with your assessment that there is a form of streaming going on in the profession.
During my education the technician was there to amplify the technical productivity of and office.
I consider this separate and equal streaming to be totally improper and a disaster on the cards for architects.

I have come across designs apparently certified or approved for certification by the technician job runner - who had no clue.
Technicians don't design my methods of compliance for Part B or anything else - I design my own, vetting and approving all matters arising.
This included shelling our hundreds of pounds for overpriced British Standards for reference - which I then have to let the Fire Office read because his office doesn't have a current copy!!!

Surfacing this week from completing a Business Development Course and reading your follow up, it comes as something of the shock to read your comment above which suggests that architects are now so grossly incompetent technically, technicians must do their work.
That is a disgraceful state of affairs, only benefiting lazy prima donnas with aspirations to Star Status - by God this profession needs a good kick in the behind to get it back on track - I can see that things have slipped disastrously under the tutelage of the RIAI.

And I was talking with a colleague only yesterday about the Regulation of the Building Industry.

Not just Regulation of the Title(s) used by the designers/professionals but their services

Not just Regulation of the Provision of Architectural Services, but all Services

Not just Regulation of the Professions as a group but also including:

  • Architectural Technicians
  • so-called CAD Technicians
  • CAD Draughtsmen

and the like.

But most importantly Regulation of those who claim to be Main Contractors and their better less experienced cousins, the phalanx of Self Builders - its way past time we put the whole Building Industry on a professional footing.

Suffice to say that the Building Control Amendment Bill 2010 was only an essay - a tidying up exercise.
I suspect it will be amended in due course to reflect public concern that Grandfathers must show their work.
But the great work, that lies ahead - will be the imposition of a formal structure on the way we design and build.
This work will address the current situation where the person with responsibility for the built work has no qualification.

Architects and Design Consultants are responsible for the design of the building or elements of the building.
Half formed creatures like BER consultants and Passive House consultants are not designers at all and should be tied agents.
But allowing the current state of affairs to continue, where people with absolutely no experience can call themselves main contractors?

That is a total joke and it reflects the nod-and-a-wink Gombeenism that has led this country to the brink of destruction via the building industry.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:54 pm

One thing I'm curious about.

An architect , fully EU directive qualified and ARB registered in London, does work in Dublin using his London address on title blocks etc.

Doing anything wrong?
wearnicehats
Senior Member
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 pm

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 pm

It seems to depend on whether he's originally from Ireland and also whether or not he qualified here AND whenter he did his Part III here or not.

If you have a London Part III and ARB accreditation you have some fun ahead of you.

If you have an Irish Part II and no Part III you have even mroe fun ahead of you with the Registration Process - feel free to confer on this.

AFAIK - AND DESPITE ALL APPEARANCES TO THE CONTRARY I'M NOT THE EXPERT ON THIS :lolno: - Irish-qualified Architects practising in Ireland need to be Registered here.

An Irish Architect needs to be accerdited here to work here - I think there was an article in Hot Press last year about someone in a similar plight - and yer man was qualified out the wazoo - James MacAree I think his name was.

Yep, here's the reference - you'll need a subscription to view it.

http://hotpress.com/archive/6768196.html

"A bizarre new law places huge obstacles in front of Irish architects who have qualified in the UK and who wish to practice in Ireland – even though non-Irish citizens face nothing like the same level of difficulty."


I didn't read the original article, but I corresponded with James and advised him in relation to his position.

I understand that the country you qualified in must accredit you through the competent authority, which in Irelands case is the RIAI.

You might look at this and revert with a comment as to how it affects you/ the person in question if its not your goodself.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:44 pm

sorry - probably wasn't clear as usual. the person in question ain't Irish and ain't me. The question here is whether, by virtue of the qualification and the origin of the design, if you like, in terms of the titleblocks, is this legal? ie what stops uk based fully eu qualified architects working here "from home"
wearnicehats
Senior Member
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 pm

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:23 pm

Okay wearnicehats

I don't know what you mean by "eu qualified" - issues arise in terms of where the primary degree was obtained, the nationality and country of origin of the person and where the person is practising.
The legalities of lodging planning applications and practising in one country while based in another seem to be another agenda altogether.
That is to say, Registration is one thing, practising another.

I'm assuming the person is EU but not Irish or English and got their primary qualification in the EU country, whatever about being accredited through the ARB.
My gut feeling on this is that if your work is on site here, you are effectively working here regardless of your place of abode or work.
Therefore you need to be Registered/Licensed to do so - so there is an accreditation process through the RIAI required.

Couple of clarifications on this.
The RIAI are currently the Competent Authority in relation to Architecture in Ireland.
I feel this should have been limited to "the competent body in relation to Registration of Architects in Ireland", but that's the way it is for now.
The person to whom this question needs to be addressed with full information is he admissions Director of the RIAI who will clarify the correct approach for you.

The reason I take this view point is the degree of jumping through hoops for the Registration Process that James MacAree had to undertake to get recognised here.
Common sense seemed in short supply when this framework was being drafted, but there is a feeling that equally, if we have to jump through hoops, so should everyone else.
I'd be VERY interested in finding our where and how this concludes wearnicehats so please consider posting and update when you know how it terms - or is turning - out for your friend.

In the meantime, here is a link you could pass on and some extracts which may be relevant to your friend's position -

=======================================

http://www.riai.ie/admissions/architects/


Registration: Route D1

To qualify for this route you must:

* be a national of an EU/EEA Member State
* have a recognised qualification in Architecture from an EU/EEA Member State and
* meet the requirements of Directive 2005/36/EC on the Recognition of Professional Qualifications

Download the ROUTE D1 application package

=======================================

Registration: Route D2

To qualify for this route you must be:

* A national of an EU Member State, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway or Switzerland and
* have a Qualification in Architecture from an EU/EAA Member State other than Ireland which does not meet the requirements of Chapter III Article 46 of Directive 2005/36/EC on the Recognition of Professional Qualifications

This route relates to the ‘General System’ under Title III Chapter I of Directive 2005/36/EC. If successful you may be required to undertake compensation measures to meet the criteria set out in the Building Control Act 2007.

Please contact the Admissions Director

=======================================

Registration: Route D3
To qualify for this route you must be:

* A national of an EU or EEA Member State, and
* Legally established as an architect in a Member State

This route relates to those seeking to register for the purpose of providing architectural services in the Irish State on a temporary and occasional basis.

Download the Route D3 Package


=======================================

So as you can see its all hugely bound up in red tape and assessment criteria, despite your person having an "eu qualification".

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:35 pm

bloody hell - pictionary must be fun with you. It's a purely hypothetical situation but, for argument's sake let's say the person is english, went to a nice school in england followed by RIBA parts 1 and 2 at university (despite middling grades) in england. RIBA Part 3 taken and passed at said university in england. Spending some time in Dublin, decides to do a bit of work for someone as a favour - no fee, no tax issues. Does it all through on paperwork through a company registered in london. Legal?

How does it work, for instance, if an non-irish firm wins a competiton here (pause for laughter) - must they tie in with a local firm?

I'm not aware of any legislation that stops someone based overseas lodging a planning application here, for instance. Is there any?
wearnicehats
Senior Member
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 pm

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:52 pm

Not yet, but wait until next year ...

For now, you must be registered to practise as an architect here.
It doesn't matter whether its lodging an application or certifying a building.
I think its the same in England were if the situation were reversed you'd need a temporary license.

I'll try and post a copy of James MacAree's Hot Press article later on.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:48 pm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/61060971@N03/5561213391/sizes/l/in/photostream/

The amount of hassle I had posting this on Facebook I just went to Flickr instead.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:07 am

James Mac Arees Hot Press Report in detail seems to suggest that his plight may have little enough to do with your friend's situation Missarchi.

The issue is which route would be required for him to proceed and for a definitive on his right to practice here, he has to contact the RIAI.

I think you've zeroed in on a poorly defined area - although the RIAI may have fully considered it in their prognositcations.

Are you practicing "here" by supplying a service or drawings/documents seeking permission or for construction.

I think that if you are engaged here and the site is here and the LA is here, you are working "here".

If you are using the Title "Architect" then you need to be Registered in Ireland to do this.

I think the ARB have some kind of "temporary" Registration facility - not sure of that.

If your friend practices here - as an architect - unregistered - he may be in breach.

Call the RIAI and have a chat.

:angel:

Or contact the AAOI.

:problem:

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby missarchi » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:08 pm

Surprise this even got any press coverage...
The coverage of Irish architecture/design in the press is very skewed.
So much so you may as well be vegetarian.
I would like to see the RIAI take on all international media outlets for using the word architect for banking systems IT and jail them all for a year ect...
( but I don't see it happening )

Promoting and Supporting Professionally Qualified Irish Architects in Ireland.

from????

Promoting and Supporting Irish Architecture.


I'm well aware Irish architects have gone underground for good reason but this does not mean you always are supporting the best design or outcome.
Professionally Qualified Irish Architects in Ireland can still specify ********* granite over connemara.
Professionally Qualified Irish Architects in Ireland can still outsource work.
Professionally Qualified Irish Architects still have a minimum wage?
Other developed countries have standards of wages that must be paid for different stages of your career does Ireland?
There is not one Irish indigenous architect/designer building product that I have seen on the market.
There is no funding for Irish indigenous architecture just modernity. (discrimination?)
The RIAI does not have an Indigenous Irish architecture award.
More work can be done...
In the end Scarpa did not even accept the paper...
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:59 pm

Missarchi,

Its hard to understand what you are posting about now, but I'll make an attempt to reply to your comments
The Indo, the Times and the Sunday Business Post have all commented upon the subject of Registration.
This above issue got hot press coverage because one person stood up to the RIAI who beign unfair.

My read on this is that it arose partly through the relative inexperience of those adminstering a myriad of new regulations.
Trying to do the right thing, they got caught up in the myriad definitions and requirements they themselves lobbied for.

I don't see this as suggesting any vindictive streak on their part.
Bureaucrats will tend to say "no" rather than "yes".

There is NO objective coverage in the press per se.
There are the views of the Registrar and the Architect's Alliance.
Montaut and Graby have been the ones exchanging views in the press.

I have stayed out of this because it ignores several issues, some of which I have posted about here.
I am more inclusive than Graby in terms of allowing competent people to practise as architects if they can show this.
I am far less forgiving than Graby because I think that only architects should provide architectural services to the public.
I include Architectural Technologists in this only so long as the law says they are to be held equally liable to architects - otherwise - no!

Draftsmen - no! These guys are the bane of all building professionals trying to make a living at the moment!
Technicians of any sort - No! Not unless they submit their work AS ARCHITECTS and show they are competent at this level
Engineers - NO!!! Bugger this nonsense - I don't design structures or services for a living - although I have done both - stay off my turf.
Surveyors - NO!!!!! They survey things, they're not even trained as designers FFS!!!

If its about designing buildings for humans it should be done by architects, simple as that!

===========================

Re your other points.

No Irish architects are underground.
Unqualified successes are still using the title architect.
Graduates are still practising from Mammy's back room and calling themselves architects

Specifying Granite?
Outsourcing Work?
Minimum Wage?

As for your last comments about recommened rates, indigenous products, architects and Scarpa?
Are you drunk in charge of a keyboard?
What are you on about?

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby missarchi » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:26 pm

Architects know a lot about very little.

Drunk? no that comes naturally...
But it might invoke a response.

Anyway on the wage issue what is the minimum you can pay a:

a) a pre-grad of architecture
b) grad of archi
c) 3 year grad
d) registered
e) 10 years rego
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:10 am

There is no legally applicable rate AFAIK, so its the Minimum Wage.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby missarchi » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:02 am

What job will an architect do in 2025?

So what is the incentive to go through all that pain?
Clearly it seems there is no award wage or structure is that because there is no architects union?
You must have serious doubts about the profession now? and who it serves?

riba or riai?

What have Brad Pitt, Justin Bieber and Mattel's new Barbie doll got to do with this?

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bydesign/stori ... 171139.htm
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby parka » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:15 pm

missarchi wrote:What job will an architect do in 2025?

So what is the incentive to go through all that pain?
Clearly it seems there is no award wage or structure is that because there is no architects union?
You must have serious doubts about the profession now? and who it serves?

riba or riai?

What have Brad Pitt, Justin Bieber and Mattel's new Barbie doll got to do with this?

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bydesign/stori ... 171139.htm


They got the design of the Architect Barbie so wrong
Image

I understand where you're coming from regarding wages etc.
Looking at the RIAI website jobs are being advertised without pay and there's free advice clinics coming up, the future doesn't look good at all.
parka
Member
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:10 pm

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby onq » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:13 pm

Architects are competent to comment on all matters in relation to buildings.
Contrary to your assertion Missarchi, they know a lot about a lot of things.

The outlook looks bleak for those students leaving the courses this year.
Design ability doesn't put money in the account or food on the table.

Its time the schools started thinking about the numbers emerging.
Its clear they're run to a profit-taking agenda, not sustainability.

A little bit of professionalism managing all markets is needed.
The bullshit idea that a chaotic market regulates itself?

That's like saying criminals will run to confess crimes.
Just a load of utter bollox promulgated by the Yanks.

As for the incentive - you wouldn't understand.
Its a career, its a vocation, its a profession.

You either are an architect, or you aren't.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Is it really now time to consider restriction of service

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:42 pm

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gi ... 6182335329

UK based organisation - Architects Against low Pay. Some interested stuff
wearnicehats
Senior Member
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland