Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:30 pm

Cathal Dunne wrote:
As I said to you before, the RPA under-estimates demand all the time. They had to lengthen the trams on the Luas to meet the demand the RPA didn't foresee along the routes of the Red and Green Line. The same will happen with Metro North as people flock to a high-capacity, very reliable and rapid rail transport. Luas isn't future-proofed, it's jampacked at the minute and has very little spare capacity just 6 years after being completed. If we were to build your fantasy Luas line then it too would be packed in less than a decade and then we'd have to build Metro North anyway because the trams would be too full. What you're proposing is the rail equivalent of the two-lane M50. Build a lukewarm shadow of what's needed and then build what is needed 10 years later at twice the cost.


According to the proponents of the scheme in their most recent cost benefit analysis the true demand is less than 3,000 allowing for moderate growth; why would you develop a system with a 20,000 capacity when growth is predicted at 2% p.a. Forget 2004 a set of initial demand figures when the eastern European floodgate opened; the migration is now in the opposite direction. Whatever way you spin it a maximum demand figure of 3,000 intrajourney per hour cannot justify a €3bn capital spend.



Cathal Dunne wrote: If Metro North is dropped, as you so crazily hope, then that is the end of any plans for any rail line of any kind connecting the city centre to the airport and city centre for the next 20 years. They will not suddenly adopt Luas as an alternative to Metro North like you suggest, it will be completely dropped and the only discussion about rail links to the airport will be in transport engineering lectures in DIT. Even if it does come back on the agenda 20 years' hence, it will take more than 10 years to build due to our byzantine planning process. This means that Dublin, unique amongst European capital cities, will not have a rail link between its airport and the city centre. It would also mean that, again, the people of Ballymun would be denied the rail link they have been promised since the 1960s. It would also mean that Swords continues to suffer with a sub-standard bus service which breaks down at the first signs of snow.

It doesn't have to be this way and, hopefully, by the end of this year, it won't be as Metro North will have cleared all obstacles and be set for boring in 2012.


Dublin City Centre is 25 minutes by Aircoach from the airport; Heathrow to Oxford Circus cannot be done in less than 40 mins and that assumes you hit everything on the nail. The passenger loadings are Luas so should the specification be.


Cathal Dunne wrote: Lucan via Bluebell was actually going to be Luas, not Metro actually, and the RPA has fleshed this out with the Luas Line F proposal. The certainly do call for a Metro line from Shangannah to the Airport and Swords, but the map clearly indicates that what they were proposing was a lot heavier than a Luas line. If they were proposing a Luas line then it would be indicated on the map as other Luas lines are charted there too. This illustrates that the DTO abandoned any Luas line to the airport proposal and upgraded this to a Metro. Therefore these transport exports disagree with you and your fantasy Luas line.


That is not what the map says; it also lists unsegregated light rail. The Luas proposal for Ballymun was government policy until 1997 it is therefore credible.

Cathal Dunne wrote: You also need to consider Ballymun. The local residents have expressed a clear preference for an underground rail line through their area. You would also need to go underground at the airport because you couldn't have trams criss-crossing the apron. You also need to consider the need for grade separation around Swords which requires sections of elevated rail and cut-and-cover tunnels. This is all manageable when we're building a railway line with 17,000 maximum capacity, another story when we're doing it for your low capacity fantasy Luas line. And don't tell me that the demand doesn't exist there for a Metro line.


Ask anyone what their preference is between an on street tram or an underground and unless they intend to use it will say underground; that does not address a rationale on a cost benefit basis. The airport needs a limited amount of tunnel and the only location on the route where you can justify an underground station; Swords with the M1 built now has the road space to accomodate Luas. The design capacity is actually 20,000 the demand less than 3,000.




Cathal Dunne wrote:The way you go on you'd swear it'd just be one man and his dog on the metros going from Stephen's Green to Swords. The fact is that cities with lower populations and lower population densities than Dublin also have underground Metro lines which are well-patronised. Another fact is that DART and Commuter rail services are in huge demand in the same Dublin through which metros will travel. They had to double capacity on the DART service to keep pace with demand as people responded to its high-speed, high capacity nature. Add to this that the 90m metros will have only 2/3rds the capacity of a DART train and there is no doubt that metros will be packed once they start running.


When the RPA can't get demand above half that of a Luas line capacity then what other conclusion can you draw other than nice idea but unaffordable when the IMF are running the country.

Cathal Dunne wrote:Martin Cullen and Noel Dempsey did not slow down the DART Underground project, it's due to CIÉ incompetence that it's taking so long. They originally proposed starting the tunnel at Heuston and boring from both ends. This changed when they added in Inchicore and decided to only bore from that end. They themselves imposed the delay when they changed the plans for DART Underground. Noel Dempsey only found out about the delay through the media. The point remains that DART Underground has only begun the railway order process, Metro North has one, CIÉ has only begun the tendering process, Metro North will have finished that by the Summer. MN is shovel ready, DART Underground is not and therefore should get the priority over the next year. Once DART Underground is finished its preliminary work by 2013, we should proceed with it too.


It is well known the CIE were not given the resources to design the DART underground project on demand; the project had a finalised route in 2004 but took many years to receive the resources. For the entire period until the IMF's arrival the public were completely misled into believing both projects were fully funded; when it mattered DART underground was not funded and a route with a demand of 3,000 maximum hourly intra journey demand was funded to a capacity of almost 7 times what is required.

Celtic Metro Group (Barclays Private Equity Ltd, Mitsui & Co Ltd, Grupo Soares da Costa S.G.S. S.A., Obrascon Huarte Lain and Iridium Concesiones de Infraestructuras, S.A),



A lot of Spanish names in there; I can't see Spanish banks doing anything other than defending their balance sheets in the context of Portugal looking like it will be IMF'd within the next 2 weeks and Spain then being lined up for the CDS tug of war that will define the Euro's future. Barclays private equity probably won't do it; leaving Mitsui as the only credible player; will they still build it for nothing?


Celtic Metro Group

MetroExpress (Global via Infraestructuras S.A., Macquarie Capital Group Ltd, Allied Irish Banks p.l.c. and Bombardier Transportation (Holdings) UK Ltd). Contacts for the consortia listed on RPA website.


So it is actually funded by a nationalised bank; the more you look at this project the more it is a complete fiction.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Cathal Dunne » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:40 pm

PVC King wrote:
According to the proponents of the scheme in their most recent cost benefit analysis the true demand is less than 3,000 allowing for moderate growth; why would you develop a system with a 20,000 capacity when growth is predicted at 2% p.a. Forget 2004 a set of initial demand figures when the eastern European floodgate opened; the migration is now in the opposite direction. Whatever way you spin it a maximum demand figure of 3,000 intrajourney per hour cannot justify a €3bn capital spend.


I see you've invented another canard to perpetuate your opposition to Metro North. However, if you are willing to use the business case of MN to justify your position, you have to accept all of it in order to be consistent. The business case, even with your "half-Luas capacity" patronage, finds a BCR of 1.55:1 for the project in narrow terms and 2:1 in broad terms. So regardless of how many people get on at what stop the project as a whole makes sense and will reap us significant economic return ergo we should proceed with it.



Cathal Dunne wrote: If Metro North is dropped, as you so crazily hope, then that is the end of any plans for any rail line of any kind connecting the city centre to the airport and city centre for the next 20 years. They will not suddenly adopt Luas as an alternative to Metro North like you suggest, it will be completely dropped and the only discussion about rail links to the airport will be in transport engineering lectures in DIT. Even if it does come back on the agenda 20 years' hence, it will take more than 10 years to build due to our byzantine planning process. This means that Dublin, unique amongst European capital cities, will not have a rail link between its airport and the city centre. It would also mean that, again, the people of Ballymun would be denied the rail link they have been promised since the 1960s. It would also mean that Swords continues to suffer with a sub-standard bus service which breaks down at the first signs of snow.

It doesn't have to be this way and, hopefully, by the end of this year, it won't be as Metro North will have cleared all obstacles and be set for boring in 2012.


Dublin City Centre is 25 minutes by Aircoach from the airport; Heathrow to Oxford Circus cannot be done in less than 40 mins and that assumes you hit everything on the nail. The passenger loadings are Luas so should the specification be.


It's not just an airport link! It's a completely new public transport corridor which will get people to and from the airport quicker and cheaper than Aircoach and a lot more besides. On top of that, don't be so Anglocentric - Metro North will bring us into line with what Copenhagen, Vienna and Amsterdam enjoy in terms of time taken to get from the city centre to the airport. That's the standard we should be aiming for.

I also see you completely ignored my point about what will inevitably occur if we drop Metro North. It'll go the same way as the 3-line DART proposed in the DRRTS in 1975. There will not be an immediate search for a Luas alternative. People will be condemned to our slow and inefficient bus service which keeps commuters car bound in our city. The €3 billion we'll "save" will quickly be eaten up by the costs of congestion across the northside of the city.


That is not what the map says; it also lists unsegregated light rail. The Luas proposal for Ballymun was government policy until 1997 it is therefore credible.


Oh yes it is, the map clearly shows a METRO line running through Ballymun to the airport, not a Luas line. Luas to Ballymun was government policy until it was realised that it was insufficient. This was around 2000 and this change of thinking is reflected in the PfC ergo your fantasy Luas line died back in 1999.


Ask anyone what their preference is between an on street tram or an underground and unless they intend to use it will say underground;


Utter rubbish. The RPA has conducted extensive consultation on Metro North with the residents of Ballymun. They originally proposed elevated rail through Ballymun as this was seen to be the cheapest means of building the line through the area. However the locals objected on the basis that the rail line would create an area where anti-social behaviour would develop. Similar concerns were expressed about an on-street line. It was therefore decided to create a cut-and-cover tunnel through that area for Metro North to address these concerns. If we were to go with your fantasy Luas line then they'd be on to An Bord Pleanála like a flash and their objections would force you to put the Luas underground. However we'd then be putting a low capacity line underground, not a high capacity Metro. It's things like this which make me feel your proposed Luas line would fail a CBA and therefore be rejected by Cabinet.


Cathal Dunne wrote:The way you go on you'd swear it'd just be one man and his dog on the metros going from Stephen's Green to Swords. The fact is that cities with lower populations and lower population densities than Dublin also have underground Metro lines which are well-patronised. Another fact is that DART and Commuter rail services are in huge demand in the same Dublin through which metros will travel. They had to double capacity on the DART service to keep pace with demand as people responded to its high-speed, high capacity nature. Add to this that the 90m metros will have only 2/3rds the capacity of a DART train and there is no doubt that metros will be packed once they start running.


When the RPA can't get demand above half that of a Luas line capacity then what other conclusion can you draw other than nice idea but unaffordable when the IMF are running the country.


Well since Metro North is included in the four year plan which was agreed with the EU and IMF, then they mustn't have had any problems with proceeding with this project which has a positive CBA.



It is well known the CIE were not given the resources to design the DART underground project on demand; the project had a finalised route in 2004 but took many years to receive the resources. For the entire period until the IMF's arrival the public were completely misled into believing both projects were fully funded; when it mattered DART underground was not funded and a route with a demand of 3,000 maximum hourly intra journey demand was funded to a capacity of almost 7 times what is required.


They had a finalised route in 2004 but decided to change it as you well know to include a stop at Inchicore and only tunnel from there. That was a self-imposed delay by CIÉ and it results in their project being significantly behind that of Metro North. The way it's looking, it could be 2013 before we have to think about the boring of DART underground which would almost be outside the bounds of the four-year plan. In any case, the track works around the tunnel are expected to continue so we can start on Metro North now and do DART underground later.




A lot of Spanish names in there; I can't see Spanish banks doing anything other than defending their balance sheets in the context of Portugal looking like it will be IMF'd within the next 2 weeks and Spain then being lined up for the CDS tug of war that will define the Euro's future. Barclays private equity probably won't do it; leaving Mitsui as the only credible player; will they still build it for nothing?


Well given that the consortium has spent millions on bidding for this project and will be looking to sign the contract to build the line this year, it is highly likely that yes, all parties to the consortium would like to build it.


Celtic Metro Group

MetroExpress (Global via Infraestructuras S.A., Macquarie Capital Group Ltd, Allied Irish Banks p.l.c. and Bombardier Transportation (Holdings) UK Ltd). Contacts for the consortia listed on RPA website.


So it is actually funded by a nationalised bank; the more you look at this project the more it is a complete fiction.


Oh yes, a complete fiction which has its railway order, a complete fiction whose enabling works budget has been granted, a complete fiction which, after a few procedures will get the go-ahead in the Summer of this year. What's a complete fiction is your fantasy Luas line.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:40 am

Cathal Dunne wrote:
I see you've invented another canard to perpetuate your opposition to Metro North. However, if you are willing to use the business case of MN to justify your position, you have to accept all of it in order to be consistent. The business case, even with your "half-Luas capacity" patronage, finds a BCR of 1.55:1 for the project in narrow terms and 2:1 in broad terms. So regardless of how many people get on at what stop the project as a whole makes sense and will reap us significant economic return ergo we should proceed with it.


The RPA figures speak for themselves 3,640 maximum intra journey demand; less 666 for Bellinstown and Lissenhall give less than 3,000; Seatown with 700 plus passengers also axed. Luas with a capacity of 6,000 per hour has almost 3 times the capacity of the existing demand which underpin those cost benefit analysis which were compiled in the same manner as the one for the M3 and Limerick tunnel which will cost the exchequer €100m due to traffic levels not hitting the 'minimum base levels'

Address current projections based on the revised project.



Cathal Dunne wrote: If Metro North is dropped, as you so crazily hope, then that is the end of any plans for any rail line of any kind connecting the city centre to the airport and city centre for the next 20 years. They will not suddenly adopt Luas as an alternative to Metro North like you suggest, it will be completely dropped and the only discussion about rail links to the airport will be in transport engineering lectures in DIT. Even if it does come back on the agenda 20 years' hence, it will take more than 10 years to build due to our byzantine planning process. This means that Dublin, unique amongst European capital cities, will not have a rail link between its airport and the city centre. It would also mean that, again, the people of Ballymun would be denied the rail link they have been promised since the 1960s. It would also mean that Swords continues to suffer with a sub-standard bus service which breaks down at the first signs of snow.

It doesn't have to be this way and, hopefully, by the end of this year, it won't be as Metro North will have cleared all obstacles and be set for boring in 2012.


No; a Luas line can go back to planning and have consent within 3- 4 years. That is just scaremongering.

Cathal Dunne wrote:It's not just an airport link! It's a completely new public transport corridor which will get people to and from the airport quicker and cheaper than Aircoach and a lot more besides. On top of that, don't be so Anglocentric - Metro North will bring us into line with what Copenhagen, Vienna and Amsterdam enjoy in terms of time taken to get from the city centre to the airport. That's the standard we should be aiming for.

I also see you completely ignored my point about what will inevitably occur if we drop Metro North. It'll go the same way as the 3-line DART proposed in the DRRTS in 1975. There will not be an immediate search for a Luas alternative. People will be condemned to our slow and inefficient bus service which keeps commuters car bound in our city. The €3 billion we'll "save" will quickly be eaten up by the costs of congestion across the northside of the city.


A transport corridor whose stations with consent produice just over a third of the capacity of a Luas line at peak times.


Cathal Dunne wrote:
That is not what the map says; it also lists unsegregated light rail. The Luas proposal for Ballymun was government policy until 1997 it is therefore credible.


Oh yes it is, the map clearly shows a METRO line running through Ballymun to the airport, not a Luas line. Luas to Ballymun was government policy until it was realised that it was insufficient. This was around 2000 and this change of thinking is reflected in the PfC ergo your fantasy Luas line died back in 1999.



http://www.dto.ie/platform1.pdf

The map at p30 is pure fantasy; an underground to Tallaght from Tara St via Finglas in addition to another underground metro to Tallaght via Kimmage and another underground netro to Lucan via Bluebell. That document was the most crayonic exercise in the history of the state even more so that Martin Cullen's road map.


Cathal Dunne wrote:
Ask anyone what their preference is between an on street tram or an underground and unless they intend to use it will say underground;


Utter rubbish. The RPA has conducted extensive consultation on Metro North with the residents of Ballymun. They originally proposed elevated rail through Ballymun as this was seen to be the cheapest means of building the line through the area. However the locals objected on the basis that the rail line would create an area where anti-social behaviour would develop. Similar concerns were expressed about an on-street line. It was therefore decided to create a cut-and-cover tunnel through that area for Metro North to address these concerns. If we were to go with your fantasy Luas line then they'd be on to An Bord Pleanála like a flash and their objections would force you to put the Luas underground. However we'd then be putting a low capacity line underground, not a high capacity Metro. It's things like this which make me feel your proposed Luas line would fail a CBA and therefore be rejected by Cabinet.


No disrespect but you obviously have no experience of underground if you think an underground is safer than an on street system; regardless of peoples perceptions the reality is that stations create more anti-social behaviour than Luas platforms because the entrances provide a focal point to congregate as opposed to open access platforms. Regardless of the views in berties boomier Dublin; the city and country cannot afford to build an underground due to the misinformed views on anti-social behaviour.


Cathal Dunne wrote:The way you go on you'd swear it'd just be one man and his dog on the metros going from Stephen's Green to Swords. The fact is that cities with lower populations and lower population densities than Dublin also have underground Metro lines which are well-patronised. Another fact is that DART and Commuter rail services are in huge demand in the same Dublin through which metros will travel. They had to double capacity on the DART service to keep pace with demand as people responded to its high-speed, high capacity nature. Add to this that the 90m metros will have only 2/3rds the capacity of a DART train and there is no doubt that metros will be packed once they start running.


The capacity with stations as sanctioned is about a third of a Luas line. with those loadings one 90m Luas every 20 mins would satisfy peak demand.

Cathal Dunne wrote:
When the RPA can't get demand above half that of a Luas line capacity then what other conclusion can you draw other than nice idea but unaffordable when the IMF are running the country

Well since Metro North is included in the four year plan which was agreed with the EU and IMF, then they mustn't have had any problems with proceeding with this project which has a positive CBA.


The 4 year plan which was put together on the back of a cornflake box was brtoad brushstrokes; all it proves is that they are ok with one project of that size not that it has to be a Luas line that will have usage of less than a sixth of its design capacity.



Cathal Dunne wrote:They had a finalised route in 2004 but decided to change it as you well know to include a stop at Inchicore and only tunnel from there. That was a self-imposed delay by CIÉ and it results in their project being significantly behind that of Metro North. The way it's looking, it could be 2013 before we have to think about the boring of DART underground which would almost be outside the bounds of the four-year plan. In any case, the track works around the tunnel are expected to continue so we can start on Metro North now and do DART underground later.


They did not sit on the idea for 5 years until 2009 before changing their route at the last second; they were not given the funds until about 2007/08 to undertake detailed design. You can't spend €3bn just because it is the project that is first in the former ministers pecking order. Dart Underground is an opportunity cost that Luas North can't pay; like Anglo its bankraupt.




Cathal Dunne wrote:
A lot of Spanish names in there; I can't see Spanish banks doing anything other than defending their balance sheets in the context of Portugal looking like it will be IMF'd within the next 2 weeks and Spain then being lined up for the CDS tug of war that will define the Euro's future. Barclays private equity probably won't do it; leaving Mitsui as the only credible player; will they still build it for nothing?


Well given that the consortium has spent millions on bidding for this project and will be looking to sign the contract to build the line this year, it is highly likely that yes, all parties to the consortium would like to build it.


A consortium may have spent up to 5% of the project value on initial design and pitching; they still need to raise the other 95% of finance; in this climate would you lend money to a Spanish construction firm to build an Irish Government project that will lose a lot of money operationally; at an attractive rate of interest? I'd rather buy Hungarian debt......




Cathal Dunne wrote:
Celtic Metro Group

MetroExpress (Global via Infraestructuras S.A., Macquarie Capital Group Ltd, Allied Irish Banks p.l.c. and Bombardier Transportation (Holdings) UK Ltd). Contacts for the consortia listed on RPA website.


Cathal Dunne wrote:
So it is actually funded by a nationalised bank; the more you look at this project the more it is a complete fiction.


Oh yes, a complete fiction which has its railway order, a complete fiction whose enabling works budget has been granted, a complete fiction which, after a few procedures will get the go-ahead in the Summer of this year. What's a complete fiction is your fantasy Luas line.


Well I've news for you; the proponents of the fantasy Luas line will be in Government in a few months time and AIB will be 99% owned by the taxpayer; €3bn isn't going to happen.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby missarchi » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:32 am

anti social behaviour...

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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby onq » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:06 pm

PVC King wrote:
http://www.dto.ie/platform1.pdf

The map at p30 is pure fantasy; an underground to Tallaght from Tara St via Finglas in addition to another underground metro to Tallaght via Kimmage and another underground netro to Lucan via Bluebell. That document was the most crayonic exercise in the history of the state even more so that Martin Cullen's road map.


"Crayonic"

Priceless.

GIven the amount of Photmontage Design and 3D Skyhook Archtiecture we see as eye candy on almost every competition entry these days I hope you don't mind when I make my next comment on BD Online if I use that excellent term.

ONQ.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:52 am

The entry from Pearse street is through the TCD building for the Pearse mainline station mostly ... for DART Underground it will be quicker to walk around to Sandwich Street
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Telchak » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:34 pm

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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:54 pm

You'd know there was an election.....

That money is still being wasted on this fantasy shows just how out of control certain semi states have become under this lame duck administration of spivvs
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby StephenC » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:49 pm

Hilarious!
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Morlan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:43 am

OC Street

Image

Image


OC Monuments will be moved to Collins Barracks!

Image

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Parnell

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SSG

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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Morlan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:50 am

There is a bug in the forum software. I kept getting this error:

Your images may only be up to 800 pixels wide.

But they are 800px wide. I had to click 'submit' about 10 times and eventually they went through. Annoying.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Morlan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:52 am

Don't suppose we could have stations similar to the Swedish subway system? I assume not.

http://luketechtips.com/a-neat-blog-abo ... ystem.html
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:41 am

Morlan wrote:There is a bug in the forum software. I kept getting this error:

Your images may only be up to 800 pixels wide.

But they are 800px wide. I had to click 'submit' about 10 times and eventually they went through. Annoying.


It consulted experian, who said no
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Morlan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:29 pm

PVC King wrote:It consulted experian, who said no


Computer says 'no'? I see.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:05 pm

You wouldn't need a computer to see that Metro North wouldn't even carry half the capacity of a Luas line; as we were told in college any concept put together on the back of a Major Box in terms of demand analysis is doomed.

Luas 6,000 passenger per hour
MN less than 3,000 in 2015 allowing for the moderate growth scenario compiled by the RPA.

That interconnector was dumped for this white elephant is an utter disgrace.....
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Morlan » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:19 am

PVC King wrote:Luas 6,000 passenger per hour
MN less than 3,000 in 2015 allowing for the moderate growth scenario compiled by the RPA.

That interconnector was dumped for this white elephant is an utter disgrace.....


The Luas Green line is completly inadequate at peak. It should have been a Metro from the beginning. The Fantasy Extention Winding Tour into the foothills of the Dublin mountains is absolutely ridiculous. The money should have been spent extending the Red Line to Ballyfermon and Lucan, where human beings live.

Interconnector is indeed important, VERY important, but the fact is is that it has not yet secured a Railway Order,' nor has it a PPP consurtium to pay for it. Shame CIÉ didn't get the app in 2 years ago.

Metty Norbo, as I have just decided to call it, already has the Railway Order and a few consortia lining up to pay for it.

Heck, PVC! The European Investment Bank want to give us .5 billion toward the project.

As a PPP project, Metty Norbo needs feck all funding from the tax payer. We start paying for it in 2018 when it's completed.

DART Vunderground Express should have gone ahead before Metty Norbo, but CIÉ were too late in their Railway Order, eh, by 2 years, but Metro North is all ready to go.

There simply is not enough cash to build the Vunderground Express right now.

Bargain labour and material costs, PPP to pay for it, creating thousand of jobs. This is the best time to build Metro North.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby missarchi » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:03 am

metro north is ready to go back to the drawing board...
There are conditions...
There is no real architecture...
Ireland's economic situation is worst than Egypt...
The minds are not open... The future is as vague and grey as concrete with bent tonight...

http://archiseek.com/2011/riai-issue-el ... r-ireland/
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Morlan » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:35 am

missarchi wrote:metro north is ready to go back to the drawing board...
There are conditions...
There is no real architecture...
Ireland's economic situation is worst than Egypt.


APB eliminated three stops at Belinstown, Lissenhall and Seatown, and ordered the relocation of a depot and park and ride facility.
Great decision by the APB, but bad news for Fianna Fáil's gombeen men that own the land north of Swords. Arseholes!

Once/if Fine Gael approve the project, the RPA should consult with "the artists (us)" and check this link below and do something similar? :/

http://luketechtips.com/a-neat-blog-abo ... ystem.html
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:35 am

Morlan wrote:APB eliminated three stops at Belinstown, Lissenhall and Seatown, and ordered the relocation of a depot and park and ride facility.
Great decision by the APB,


You do realise that in so doing they removed over 20% of peak ridership; given that park and ride could have been provided anywhere between Dunleer and Donabate on the Northern line it was absolutely the correct decision to remove these stations.

It did however fatally damage the project, what the public are being asked to buy into is spending €3bn on a system with a capacity for 20,000 hourly peak when demand is less than 3,000 per hour or half what a Luas line can deliver. And yes Dart Underground is the cost of building it, despite all the assurances it wouldn't be, still no connection between Dublin's four existing rail lines, 3 of which excceded capacity 10 years ago.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:55 pm

With work on Metro North still scheduled to start in 2012, but DART Underground to be postponed due to cutbacks identified
in the Government’s National Recovery Plan, the opportunity must be grasped to re-evaluate the relative merits of both
projects writes Alice Charles of Planning and Transportation Consultants Colin Buchanan. The current ”‘first up best dressed” position taken by the Government in light of Metro North recently receiving a Railway Order from an Bord Pleanála, is another example of thestate failing to strategically plan and effectively evaluate public transport infrastructure provision in the Capital.

As confirmed by Budget 2011, Metro North will proceed to ‘advance works’ stage next year, but is still subject to final Cabinet funding approval. The DART Underground project will proceed through the planning phase but will have no funding allocated for ay construction or enabling works phases before 2014. Observing the time period taken by the Board in reaching a decision in granting permission for the Metro North Project, a Railway Order for DART Underground should be forthcoming in late 2011. On reaching this stage, it is now generally assumed that the DART Underground project will then be shelved for two to three years on foot of current exchequer difficulties. However, the current crisis in government finances may be viewed as an opportunity to take stock of the strategic and economic benefits of both projects. With the conditions attached to the recent granting of the Railway Order by the Board, there is evidence to suggest that the timescales for both projects could converge over the coming years.
The Board’s decision in respect of Metro North to exclude the depot, stop and park and ride facility at Belinstown, the stop at
Lissenhall and to seek the relocation of the proposed depot to Dardistown, south of the Airport (presumed eventually to be a
shared facility in the event of the development of Metro West) allows breathing space in which the DART Underground proposal has the potential to reach an enabling works stage within a broadly similar timeframe. The shortening of the Metro North route, is the axing of parts of the proposed commuter catchment, most Dublin rail project are still in doubt.

The shortening of the Metro North route, via the axing of parts of the proposed commuter catchment, must influence assumptions made pertaining to overall passenger numbers contained within the project’s Redacted Business Case published
in July 2010. Therefore the assumptions underpinning the project’s cost/benefit analysis should be the subject of a
comprehensive review. It is evident from the decision of the Board that it had reservations about the ability of the route, as proposed, to function effectively as a rapid transit service for Airport users at peak hours if the line extended beyond Swords. Assumptions regarding the potential development of lands and the subsequent economic benefits accruing to the Metro North
Economic Corridor included in its Business Case must also be called into question.

The potential to regroup and fine-tune the whole Project should also be viewed in the context of the forthcoming Transport
Infrastructure Ireland Bill 2011, which makes legislative provision for the merger of the National Roads Authority and the Railway Procurement Agency. In combination, these factors have the potential to allow for a more focussed strategic review of all proposed rail projects in the Greater Dublin Area and their relative merits. In an ideal scenario all major public transport
projects should proceed in tandem, but in the event that prioritisation of projects is required, there is a strong case for
DART Underground becoming the primary investment focus from 2013 onwards. The call for the effective prioritisation of DART Underground and other connective Light Rail projects over the standalone Metro North as envisaged by the current
Government stance, is echoed by a recent Mid-Term review of the Transport 21 Programme undertaken on behalf of the
Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport by Professor Austin Smyth, a leading UK based Transport Consultant. This
report states that under current economic conditions and Government funding constraints, priority needs to be given in the short-term to seeking to maximise economic growth by ensuring construction of DART Underground and the Luas Cross-City BXD line as centrepieces of a conurbation-wide rail network.

This report emphasises the superior Business Case and Wider Economic Benefits inherent in DART Underground. It considers the project to be the key to unlocking capacity on other routes and if necessary by other modes, which is an intrinsic element of the project. The Business case for Dart Underground identifies the project as having ‘exceptional’ benefits in relation to its costs if land use policies complement the application process. This should be viewed in the context of the recently adopted Dublin City
Development Plan 2011-2017, in particular the potential within the Plan to deliver revised statutory land use plans for the key
eastern and western poles of the interconnector at the Docklands and Heuston station and the identification of Connolly station
as a location for medium-high rise building clusters.
Moving out from central Dublin, the potential benefits are evident from delivering a large improvement in rail accessibility
to the city centre from a wide catchment area as there will be benefits for each of the four rail corridors radiating from the city
centre. The positive effects on all existing services, the potential for greater modal interchange across all forms of public transport and the far greater passenger capacity deliverable for a significantly lower capital outlay than that of Metro North,
should be the key influencing factors on any decision to be taken on progressing major rail projects by the incoming
administration in the Spring of 2011.
With Budget 2011 inevitably containing little to cheer about beyond vague commitments to capital investment in public
transport, the opportunity should be grasped to implement a full strategic review of the medium term objectives of DART
Underground, Metro North and mooted extensions to the Luas network, in order to effectively commit what limited exchequer
resources will be available over the next four years to advancing each respective project to its appropriate milestone while we
await an upturn in the state’s economic fortunes.
A ‘catch-up’ approach should be employed for 2011/2012 to allow DART Underground to reach a similar footing to Metro North in the project delivery process. This would allow for a reexamination of the proposed funding mechanisms that are to be employed by both the RPA and Iarnród Éireann under the Public Private Partnership model. Budget 2011 has flagged that the National Pensions Reserve Fund (NPRF) is willing to invest in Irish infrastructure assets on a commercial basis in partnership with third party institutional investors. The Government has committed to finding opportunities for the NPRF and other private investors.
With the above in mind, it would prove prudent for all major rail projects to be allowed to reach the same stage of implementation over the next 18 months, so that a critical appraisal of all capital investment in public transport may be
undertaken to shape the distribution of what limited funding will be available in a manner not shown in the Transport 21
investment programme.
Alice Charles is an Associate Director Planner in Colin Buchanan’s Dublin Office. www.colinbuchanan.com

http://www.magico.ie/files/admin/upload ... _55223.pdf



This is an excellently balanced critique of the situation with very sensible conclusions; a practice of International reknown has lived up to its reputation. There is only one credible outcome shelve all projects until a proper review is undertaken.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Morlan » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:51 am

PVC King wrote:You do realise that in so doing they removed over 20% of peak ridership


The park and ride will be moved to somewhere around the Malahide estuary, as recommended by APB. The depot will be located in Dardistown, along with another P&R for the M50.

PVC King wrote:when demand is less than 3,000 per hour or half what a Luas line can deliver. .


Show me where you could route a Luas Line from the City Centre to Ballymun and Swords. Luas would not have the capacity nor frequency for such a route. This has already been discussed at length on Boards.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:13 pm

The park and ride will be moved to somewhere around the Malahide estuary, as recommended by APB.


An Bord simply removed the park and ride they did not suggest where it should go; as anyone who remembers soundbites will head in cupboard's one of "The Swans and the Snails" which referred to a rare snail that cost a lot of money and time on the Kildare Bypass and the Swans were those that call the Broadmeadow Estury protected habitat. The park and ride can go to Donabate and use the Northern line; end of inflating the figures, the figures need to relate to unique user trips that specific catchments generate; the further up the northern line park and ride goes the less strain is put on the M1.


The depot will be located in Dardistown, along with another P&R for the M50.


Why in gods name would you put a park n ride on the M50? N3 has rail at Blanch, M1 has a choice of other locations to build one including Gormanstown, Balibriggan and Donabate. I am in no doubt that An Bord identified the lack of ridership on the catchment and chose to expose it by eliminating the park and ride passenger demand to undermine the project fatally in a manner that saw them retain their track record of not refusing one large scale infrastrucuture project but making it so unviable that the bean counters would veto it; they chose to do so in a way that clearly exposed the emperor's clear nudity but kept them off a collision course with the autocratic Lenihan Bros government.

Show me where you could route a Luas Line from the City Centre to Ballymun and Swords.


Luas BX to Constitution Hill near Broadstone, disused canal, tunnel from Royal Canal to football pitch at Tolka river, St Mobhi Road surface to north of Ballymun before taking the proposed RPA alignment to Swords.

Luas would not have the capacity nor frequency for such a route.


43m Luas carries 430 people, demand for this line is less than 3,000; Luas at intervals of 9 minutes has spare capacity even to handle peak demand which allows for 5 years of moderate growth. 4 minute intervals delivers 6,450 passengers per hour peak. Metro North with a design spec of 20,000 would not hit capacity off a sub 3,000 base for hundred plus years.

The issue is not both Dublin Underground and Metro north and which comes first; it is a question of which gets built; spreading densification and development potential across 4 development corridors through Dublin Underground makes a lot more sense than building a project at half the demand levels to justify Luas capacity.

Why does a ranking exercise scare the proponents of Metro North so much?
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Telchak » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:15 pm

PVC King wrote:Luas BX to Constitution Hill near Broadstone, disused canal, tunnel from Royal Canal to football pitch at Tolka river, St Mobhi Road surface to north of Ballymun before taking the proposed RPA alignment to Swords.


Like this? http://goo.gl/maps/ucpR
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:28 pm

Pretty much, I'd have gone up the West side of Parnell Square to avoid the car-parks at the Ilac and soon to be Dublin Central; the key blockage is the N2 entering the City at Phibsboro; everything else in manageable at grade (airport excluded) The journey times would be a probably 3-5 minutes slower and a few cpo's would be required; but with a saving of close to €2bn and much lower ongoing operating costs by eliminating 7 underground concourses it is a very small price to pay.
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