Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby EIA340600 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:14 pm

Even the video makes the walk from DART to DART in Pearse look very long.It's a design flaw that should have been ironed out from the start, but it's not that big a deal that the project shouldn't go ahead..The part of the walkway that's done in stone looks quite cool...
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:05 pm

In an ideal World you would have two platforms backing on to each other or at right angles; in reality you have got to work with the plots that are available, working out where access is currently weak relative to existing access and delivering the project without considerable disturbance during the construction phase. Once built a 200m walk will take the average commuter 2 minutes a distance that probably seems longer watching youtube than dodging commuters when you're on the move.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:30 pm

EIA340600 wrote:...It's a design flaw that should have been ironed out from the start, but it's not that big a deal that the project shouldn't go ahead..

Unfortunately for CIE/IE it is a big deal as they would have to change the alignment of a large portion of the DU.
Phase1 of the Draft Dart Underground Railway Order (DU RO) decided on the alignment (with no consultation with the public ... not even Dart Users) and from then they have all had "Tunnel Vision".
While Pearse DU (as designed) is a fiasco, retaining some North/South service would alleviate the need to interchange at Pearse.
Imagine spending 2.5 billion, and CIE have admitted to not having done a count on the "Current Dart Users" affected or even a straw poll on the their likely shift to the car. CIE/IE have "Transport21" logo on all their documentation but refuse to contemplate retaining some service directly from North to South (as envisioned in Transport21) ... as I said "Tunnel Vision".
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:39 pm

it is a big deal as they would have to change the alignment of a large portion of the DU.


Where would they have put the entrance then? Pearse as it stands is bursting at the seams in terms of its existing passenger load; are you suggesting that they should have funnelled the commuter load from West Dublin and Kildare into the same entrance?

even a straw poll on the their likely shift to the car.


A choice of an additional range of stations and routings and a better service on all lines due to elimination of the loopline capacity constraint; I wonder why they didn't ask passengers why such an improvement would drive them into their cars.....
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:00 pm

PVC King wrote:Where would they have put the entrance then? Pearse as it stands is bursting at the seams in terms of its existing passenger load; are you suggesting that they should have funnelled the commuter load from West Dublin and Kildare into the same entrance

This is the last time I am going to answer ridiculous questions.
The entrances to DU as suggested are quite OK but the escalators should rise directly from DU up into Pearse mainline ... no contention there as the Maynooth line as suggested in the DU RO goes through Pearse mainline .. and any interchanging passengers ( e.g. for St Stephens Green) go directly down escalators to the DU.

A choice of an additional range of stations and routings and a better service on all lines due to elimination of the loopline capacity constraint; I wonder why they didn't ask passengers why such an improvement would drive them into their cars.....

It is not a better service for a large number of "Current Dart Users", hence it is not a better service on all lines
DU should enhance DART services for "Current Dart Users" not curtail their choice of direct destination or impose an ill thought out interchange .. the adverse effects of the poor design on "Current Dart Users" is so far not publicly estimated, not even by a published straw poll. To ask rail passengers if they would like a better service would be a ridiculous exercise.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:18 pm

The entrances to DU as suggested are quite OK but the escalators should rise directly from DU up into Pearse mainline ... no contention there as the Maynooth line as suggested in the DU RO goes through Pearse mainline .. and any interchanging passengers ( e.g. for St Stephens Green) go directly down escalators to the DU.


You overlook four key points

1. The space does not exist to get all passengers out of the existing and new routes; a new entrance was required.
2. No plot large enough to accomodate a new station entrance existed any closer that wasn't a protected structure
3. No underground interchange is without underground passages
4. The existing station is on an elevated railway which increases the distance required to introduce a camber for.

The distance including escalators is about 200m from platform to platform which is well within acceptable comparable standards; on balance the new station entrance location is the best acheivable.

I
t is not a better service for a large number of "Current Dart Users", hence it is not a better service on all lines
DU should enhance DART services for "Current Dart Users" not curtail their choice of direct destination or impose an ill thought out interchange .


As above 200m cannot be considered an ill thought out interchange, I would refer to Bank, Bond Street and Green Park in London and Gare Montparnasse in Paris as having far longer interchanges as does central in Hong Kong. I can see merit in all trains on Howth, Malahide, Drogheda & Dundalk stopping in Clontarf to create a more direct interchange for northciders using Tara St and Connolly Station but that would be an operational and not a physical infrastructure issue.

. the adverse effects of the poor design on "Current Dart Users" is so far not publicly estimated, not even by a published straw poll. To ask rail passengers if they would like a better service would be a ridiculous exercise.


Asserted poor design is not a generally held view; no doubt the DTO did significant research and I very much doubt that length of interchange scored highly in their research. The top 3 would have I would hazard a guess have been

1. More desinations
2. More frequency
3. New trains
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:56 pm

I have made and will continue to make one undeniable point ... the designers of DU RO as drafted have missed the target of DU under Pearse mainline by a large distance. The station design where commuters are required, after rising to surface level, to go down and cross under Cumberland Street to get to Pearse mainline only exasperates the daft alignment, and is an insult to current DART users.

Arguing about entrances and keeping the station open cut no ice, and are shown to be only red herrings.

No point in bringing up other things like your bad maths and your failure to look at the DU RO Diagrams.
“DU will be grade seperated and have 4 directions into two routes i.e. 1:1 “

“.. 150m down an escalator..... (Pearse interchange)“


You are preventing real architectural discussion
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:46 am

Real architectural discussion would be discussing the finishes which are very good or the cool clean lines of the new station; although you did repeat ad nauseum that it was something like a loo at the bottom of your garden.

200m is not a long distance as International comparison has shown. You fail to see its wider context in planning, engineering and delivery terms. But again the 4 directions into 2 routes equation was too much for you, which I will rxplain one last time

The loopline is a problem precisely because the spur to Maynooth is no grade seperated and each South bound train fed into the loopline from Maynooth must cross the Northbound Howth/Drogheda path; this leads to delays on avery large basis as three directions do not go into 2 lines. As DU will see all north bound Darts surface from the Interconnector in grade seperated paths this cross over is eliminated in the case of the majority of movements; adding the Kildare direction of Dart moves the equation by adding an additional route. 4 directions, 4 tracks on two routing directions. 1:1

You need to remember your Shannon gaffe and plenty of others.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:21 pm

PVC King wrote:Real architectural discussion would be discussing the finishes which are very good or the cool clean lines of the new station; although you did repeat ad nauseum that it was something like a loo at the bottom of your garden....
200m is not a long distance ...

Discussing the merits or otherwise of the above platform level station are pointless as long as the loo is at the bottom of the garden and you still have not viewed the draft DU RO for Pearse.
Don't tell me you think Shannon is near Kilburn .... people in here can decide who made the gaffe
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:59 pm

Posting on Christmas Day how sad; you should have been opening your second bottle of Dom 1990 by that stage of the day getting ready for a good armagnac.

cagey wrote:
Do you have to be told every little detail PVC .... find out for yourself.

To interchange at Pearse You will have to go through two ticket barriers.


You keep refering to the plans but never post them other than those that don't back up anything you say.

The words of the song mention turning left for Shannon ... very difficult to do from Kilburn. (say sorry)
Do you ever look anything up???

Don't tell me you think Shannon is near Kilburn .... people in here can decide who made the gaffe


Lets look at the words of the song.


Well the ould fella left me to shannon
Was the last time I traveled that road
And as we turned left at claregalway


Behind all those muddled up problems
Of living on a foreign soil
I can still see the twists and the turns on the road
From the square to the town of the tribes
,

The exact distance between Kilburn and Shannon is 60 mins airtime, 25 mins clearing the airport, 15 mins to Paddington on Heathrow Express and 9 mins on the Bakerloo line or about 109 mins from take off.

You fail to understand the context of anything, I bet the interchange from the Express to the Bakerloo which is also about 200m would be a problem for you as well.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:50 pm

... the square to the town of the tribes

"The Town of the Tribes" is Galway and the N17 runs from Tuam to Galway ..... seems pointless telling you anything.

I am unable to post in here, so you need to look at "dartunderground RO" for yourself.
And DU Pearse is still a loo at the bottom of the garden.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:44 pm

Seeing as you add nothing to the discourse other than a loo; do you object to the 200m distance between the Heathrow Express and the Bakerloo line? which is the shortest of the Paddington interchanges.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:12 am

Please quit with the red herrings ... DU RO has only one underground.
The original alignment was for a station under Cumberland Street ... that was when the loo was in the house ... since then it has been downhill all the way for current DART users.
Docklands, St Stephen's and Heuston interchange directly above. The mobility people have made a submission to return to the original alignment.
BTW I have the exact measurements for Pearse but insist you do your own homework.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:51 pm

Can you either post the drawings of the RO alignment and the alleged draft alignment; both in pdf form or specific weblinks to indiviudal drawings or withdraw your comments which are immature in the extreme and add nothing to the discussion.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:29 am

PVC King wrote:... your comments which are immature in the extreme and add nothing to the discussion.

Precisely what you do ... block those who might have an answer before it is too late, and never say sorry when you are wrong. Go do your own research. Maybe you should start with putting "Tuam N17" into Google.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:33 pm

Letter in today's IT

Solving our water problems
Madam, – The executive manager of Dublin City Council is quoted (Home News, December 30th) as saying that funds are currently not available to deal with the risk of losing water supply to north Wicklow and south Dublin should the tunnel from the Vartry reservoir collapse. How can this be?

There appear to be funds for ministerial pensions and projects such as Metro North. Are these more important? It beggars belief that the supply of water in Ireland has been given such low priority by the Government for such a long time.

Has this to do with incompetence, economic treason or stupidity? All three, I believe. – Yours, etc


I reiterate my objection to this vanity project at the expense of our health, education and general wellbeing.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Cathal Dunne » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:19 pm

wearnicehats wrote:Letter in today's IT

Solving our water problems
Madam, – The executive manager of Dublin City Council is quoted (Home News, December 30th) as saying that funds are currently not available to deal with the risk of losing water supply to north Wicklow and south Dublin should the tunnel from the Vartry reservoir collapse. How can this be?

There appear to be funds for ministerial pensions and projects such as Metro North. Are these more important? It beggars belief that the supply of water in Ireland has been given such low priority by the Government for such a long time.

Has this to do with incompetence, economic treason or stupidity? All three, I believe. – Yours, etc


I reiterate my objection to this vanity project at the expense of our health, education and general wellbeing.


That's a total false dichotomy which I notice was made by a few other people too. We can have a good water infrastructure and a good public transport infrastructure. We just have to pay for it. Dublin City Council is constrained because it has a limited ability to raise its own funds. What we need are water rates and a property tax to fund local government so that they have the resources to upgrade our antiquated water infrastructure.

The focus on Metro North is infuriating. The cost of Irish Nationwide Building Society is twice what Metro North will cost, Anglo is 15 times the cost and similar multiples on other failed banks. If we really want to restore balance to the nation's finances we have to do a debt for equity swap with these banks and a proper resolution of debts. That will wipe out billions in liabilities for the Irish state and restore confidence to Ireland as a sovereign debtor. The problem for Ireland is that we have attached a ton weight of debts from a failed banking system around the neck of a state and forced Irish taxpayers to pay for the decade long spiral of greed, speculation and venality in our property, banking and political circles. It is only when we stop this madness that any confidence will be restored to Ireland as a nation. Doing away with Metro North will not change this. Even spending nothing on capital expenditure over the next 10 years won't resolve the mess we're in. In fact it will make it a whole lot worse because thousands of jobs will be lost in construction, our infrastructure will suffer and become less competitive and we'll be left streets behind our international counterparts.

It's Metro North or nothing, you have to understand. If it's cancelled after going through such a long process then there is next to no chance of any other major project in Ireland proceeding. Nobody involved in infrastructure will want to deal with us if we're shown to be flakey on Metro North. It could also open us up to being sued by the PPP consortia for making them enter a tendering process on false premises.

This year we will see the final Railway Order granted, the best and final offers of the PPP bidders made, a final business case with an updated cost-benefit analysis drafted and then the decision will be with the Cabinet on whether to proceed with the project. Fine Gael and Labour look likely to form the next government and their decision on MN will be on the basis of the final cost-benefit analysis and business case. Given that Metro North already has a 1.55:1 benefit to cost ratio in the outline business case, it's likely that the final cost-benefit ratio will also be positive and therefore final approval will be given by an FG/Labour govt to Metro North.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:38 pm

actually it's about money being available for essential services

For every closed hospital bed that is reopened to take a pensioner off the trolley they've been on for 48 hours in a corridor an operation is cancelled to offset the cost

Perhaps if you had to spend 48 hours waiting on a hospital bed you might not be too bothered about having to wait that wee bit longer on a feckin bus
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:53 pm

Cathal Dunne wrote: resources to upgrade our antiquated water infrastructure.

The focus on Metro North is infuriating. The cost of Irish Nationwide Building Society is twice what Metro North will cost, Anglo is 15 times the cost and similar multiples on other failed banks.


Take a step back and ask why the banks failed?

It was very simple as an industry they consistently factored in unrealistic demand targets, ignored the potential for cost over-runs; relied upon the availibility of cheap credit for ever and did no detailed due diligence of any of the projects they were lending to. The taxpayer is being asked to lend Metro North €3bn and the latest I can deduce is this: The RPA estimate in their 2010 CBA that intra-journey maximum hourly demand would peak in the moderate growth scenario at 3,640 at Northwood stop; this includes 666 passengers that would have boarded at two stations (Bellinstown & Lissenhall) that have been axed from the route by ABP; in addition the Seatown stop has been axed which contributed over 700 of these passengers; this station has a section of its catchment that is equidistant to DART at Malahide; so one wonders how much further leakage would occur from passengers who probably use dart anyway but would certainly find DART easier than using one of the other Swords stops on Luas North. The true capacity required is less than 3,000 people per hour maximum.

Luas can carry 6,000 an hour or future proof the project for 15 - 20 years. As Keynes said in the long term we are all dead!


Cathal Dunne wrote: It's Metro North or nothing, you have to understand. If it's cancelled after going through such a long process then there is next to no chance of any other major project in Ireland proceeding. Nobody involved in infrastructure will want to deal with us if we're shown to be flakey on Metro North. It could also open us up to being sued by the PPP consortia for making them enter a tendering process on false premises.


Until the contract gets signed its a business risk; once Lenihan Bros depart the new government will do exactly what the last government did in 1997 and review everything; remember the last government was to build three Luas lines that actually joined up. But Mammy had other ideas......




actually it's about money being available for essential services


I agree that until the new government has actually seen the books and can say with all certainty what the true costs of the number of 'off balance sheet' PPPs that have been entered into on the basis of rolling up interest into the long term then no decisions can be made. From there a hierarchy of services needs to be drawn up in areas such as health, education, policing, IDA, Enterprise Ireland etc and then look at transport; if there is no tax base there is no way to pay back the loans.

If one project is to be built it must be Dublin Underground so that NAMA can break ground on the maximum number of sites with toxic loans such as Adamstown with 9,000 undeveloped plots, the four DART lines have infinitely more penetration.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Cathal Dunne » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:28 pm

wearnicehats wrote:actually it's about money being available for essential services

For every closed hospital bed that is reopened to take a pensioner off the trolley they've been on for 48 hours in a corridor an operation is cancelled to offset the cost

Perhaps if you had to spend 48 hours waiting on a hospital bed you might not be too bothered about having to wait that wee bit longer on a feckin bus


So youre argument is to spend 100% of public money on healthcare? Because that's what you're saying if every euro the government spends on something outside healthcare is a euro which puts someone on a trolley. The health budget has quintupled over the past 13 years and health outcomes have not improved proportionally. It's time for the health sector to start spending that money more efficiently instead of being pumped with yet more money.

Moreover, failing to invest in our transport infrastructure would perpetuate the billions of euro in the cost of congestion in our economy which reduces the resources available for essential services like health and water. For our economy to grow properly into the future and provide the basis for investment in health, education and water we need public transport projects like Metro North.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Cathal Dunne » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:46 pm

PVC King wrote:
Take a step back and ask why the banks failed?

It was very simple as an industry they consistently factored in unrealistic demand targets, ignored the potential for cost over-runs; relied upon the availibility of cheap credit for ever and did no detailed due diligence of any of the projects they were lending to. The taxpayer is being asked to lend Metro North €3bn and the latest I can deduce is this: The RPA estimate in their 2010 CBA that intra-journey maximum hourly demand would peak in the moderate growth scenario at 3,640 at Northwood stop; this includes 666 passengers that would have boarded at two stations (Bellinstown & Lissenhall) that have been axed from the route by ABP; in addition the Seatown stop has been axed which contributed over 700 of these passengers; this station has a section of its catchment that is equidistant to DART at Malahide; so one wonders how much further leakage would occur from passengers who probably use dart anyway but would certainly find DART easier than using one of the other Swords stops on Luas North. The true capacity required is less than 3,000 people per hour maximum.

Luas can carry 6,000 an hour or future proof the project for 15 - 20 years. As Keynes said in the long term we are all dead!


The RPA consistently under-estimates the true passenger numbers of the projects they develop, Metro is basically a Luas north of Northwood, it doesn't stop at Northwood and has significant trip generators around each of its stops and the Luas isn't future-proofed for 15-20 years. It's at capacity now 6 years after opening and that's with longer trams than originally anticipated at the launch of service. Building a Luas line like you're always saying is a total non-solution as it doesn't have the capacity nor roadspace.



Until the contract gets signed its a business risk; once Lenihan Bros depart the new government will do exactly what the last government did in 1997 and review everything; remember the last government was to build three Luas lines that actually joined up. But Mammy had other ideas......


Luas was lines on a map when the FF/PD government came to power in 1997. Metro North is a fully realised project with active bidders, budget for enabling works and a railway order. Luas was nowhere near as shovel-ready as Metro is now in 1997. On top of that, the original idea was for a Luas line to the airport, but that idea was junked by the DTO's Platform for Change document in 2001 as it was realised it wouldn't have the capacity, roadspace and speed required. Your fantasy Luas line was therefore abandoned by the experts back in 2001. Moreover, the projections used to justify this stepchange have already been exceeded so there is no doubt that a market exists for the Metro.


I agree that until the new government has actually seen the books and can say with all certainty what the true costs of the number of 'off balance sheet' PPPs that have been entered into on the basis of rolling up interest into the long term then no decisions can be made. From there a hierarchy of services needs to be drawn up in areas such as health, education, policing, IDA, Enterprise Ireland etc and then look at transport; if there is no tax base there is no way to pay back the loans.

If one project is to be built it must be Dublin Underground so that NAMA can break ground on the maximum number of sites with toxic loans such as Adamstown with 9,000 undeveloped plots, the four DART lines have infinitely more penetration.


Well until it has a railway order, finalised the bidding process and finished all the other related works DART Underground cannot proceed. All the preliminary work for MN will have been finished by the end of this year, DART Underground will only be halfway through it by then.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:18 pm

Cathal Dunne wrote:
The RPA consistently under-estimates the true passenger numbers of the projects they develop, Metro is basically a Luas north of Northwood, it doesn't stop at Northwood and has significant trip generators around each of its stops and the Luas isn't future-proofed for 15-20 years. It's at capacity now 6 years after opening and that's with longer trams than originally anticipated at the launch of service. Building a Luas line like you're always saying is a total non-solution as it doesn't have the capacity nor roadspace.


The demand numbers at peak in the 2010 CBA were 3,640 maximum at any time in any direction and this allowed for 2% yoy growth from 2010 to 2015; take out the 666 passengers using Bellinstown and Lissenhall stops which are no longer part of the project and the route has less than 3,000 maximum intra journey deamnd at peak time; remove even 25% of the 700 people at Seatown stop which was deemed unneccessary and you are in the order of 2,800 maximum hourly demand in 5 years time.

Luas has a capacity of 6,000 peak demand; take growth at 2% and it is future proofed for over 38 years; take it at a much more optimistic 5% and it is future proofed for 15 years. If after 10 years the 5% is hit then plans can be made to build an alternative underground route from Northwood into the City Centre plugging in the Eastern Route option that was rejected as the original Luas destination of Ballymun was endorsed.



Cathal Dunne wrote: Luas was lines on a map when the FF/PD government came to power in 1997. Metro North is a fully realised project with active bidders, budget for enabling works and a railway order. Luas was nowhere near as shovel-ready as Metro is now in 1997. On top of that, the original idea was for a Luas line to the airport, but that idea was junked by the DTO's Platform for Change document in 2001 as it was realised it wouldn't have the capacity, roadspace and speed required. Your fantasy Luas line was therefore abandoned by the experts back in 2001. Moreover, the projections used to justify this stepchange have already been exceeded so there is no doubt that a market exists for the Metro.


I was under the impression both Barclays and HSBC had hit the exits and with AIB being within weeks of almost total nationalisation this leaves only a single bidder; is this not correct? Can you please list the consortia left in the process.

The DTO platform for change listed 4 seperate metro lines

1. Tallaght via Kimmage
2. Lucan via Bluebell
3. Tara St to Tallaght via Finglas
4. Shanngannagh to the Airport

3 of these lines have been scrapped and the fourth can be taken in three sections

1. Shanngannagh to Cherrywood - defered due to a suspect cost benefit basis
2. Cherrywood to Stephens Green - built as Luas and with by far the highest population density on the route
3. Stephens Green to Airport - Clearly Luas loadings in terms of population density.

There is no question that delivering Luas will upset motorists and require rerouting of bus routes in the city centre; I would however ask why would someone take the 16 bus all the way from Rathfarnham to Dublin Airport when they could get off in Camden Street and interchange to Luas at Harcourt?

If people had a cross city Luas it would change journey behaviour dramatically.

The only roadspace I see on the entire route as being highly problematic is Phibsboro; the area around Cross Guns Bridge is already a significant pinch point; that area would require a tunnel from the disused canal bank to St Mobhi Road where a football pich exists for a tunnel site; this would require a tunnel of just over 1kms in length.

Cathal Dunne wrote: Well until it has a railway order, finalised the bidding process and finished all the other related works DART Underground cannot proceed. All the preliminary work for MN will have been finished by the end of this year, DART Underground will only be halfway through it by then.


That Martin Cullen and Noel Dempsey slowed up the DART underground project deliberately should have no bearing on the delivery of that project. This is clearly now an either or situation the money is not there for both. Dempsey got his white elephant M3, Cullen his White Elephant M9, Bertie his head in a cupboard. For Swords Luas would be a great result given even the vastly overscaled DTO document didn't grant anything.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:33 am

Cathal Dunne wrote:
Well until it has a railway order, finalised the bidding process and finished all the other related works DART Underground cannot proceed. All the preliminary work for MN will have been finished by the end of this year, DART Underground will only be halfway through it by then.


DART Underground is dependent on the Metro to build St Stephens Green Underground.
No Metro = No DU St Stephens and the Draft RO as it stands would be nonsense as all the figures would have to be revised.
Maybe CIE/IE would try to add another of its infamous "Corrigenda" to the draft DU RO EIS but I cannot see An Bord Pleanala agreeing. Of course the DU RO EIS is so rushed that another "error" would hardly be noticed.
Someone mentioned four DART lines, but the DU RO as drafted halves the current successful DART service at Pearse without any figures to support the financial sanity of same. The aims of Transport21 it seems has been forgotten even tho' the DU RO has that logo on every page.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:49 am

So DART will now be every 20 mins at Pearse instead of every 10 mins at Pearse; where is your evidence?

Where are the drawings you keep referring to on other threads?
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Cathal Dunne » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:26 pm

PVC King wrote:
The demand numbers at peak in the 2010 CBA were 3,640 maximum at any time in any direction and this allowed for 2% yoy growth from 2010 to 2015; take out the 666 passengers using Bellinstown and Lissenhall stops which are no longer part of the project and the route has less than 3,000 maximum intra journey deamnd at peak time; remove even 25% of the 700 people at Seatown stop which was deemed unneccessary and you are in the order of 2,800 maximum hourly demand in 5 years time.

Luas has a capacity of 6,000 peak demand; take growth at 2% and it is future proofed for over 38 years; take it at a much more optimistic 5% and it is future proofed for 15 years. If after 10 years the 5% is hit then plans can be made to build an alternative underground route from Northwood into the City Centre plugging in the Eastern Route option that was rejected as the original Luas destination of Ballymun was endorsed.


As I said to you before, the RPA under-estimates demand all the time. They had to lengthen the trams on the Luas to meet the demand the RPA didn't foresee along the routes of the Red and Green Line. The same will happen with Metro North as people flock to a high-capacity, very reliable and rapid rail transport. Luas isn't future-proofed, it's jampacked at the minute and has very little spare capacity just 6 years after being completed. If we were to build your fantasy Luas line then it too would be packed in less than a decade and then we'd have to build Metro North anyway because the trams would be too full. What you're proposing is the rail equivalent of the two-lane M50. Build a lukewarm shadow of what's needed and then build what is needed 10 years later at twice the cost.

If Metro North is dropped, as you so crazily hope, then that is the end of any plans for any rail line of any kind connecting the city centre to the airport and city centre for the next 20 years. They will not suddenly adopt Luas as an alternative to Metro North like you suggest, it will be completely dropped and the only discussion about rail links to the airport will be in transport engineering lectures in DIT. Even if it does come back on the agenda 20 years' hence, it will take more than 10 years to build due to our byzantine planning process. This means that Dublin, unique amongst European capital cities, will not have a rail link between its airport and the city centre. It would also mean that, again, the people of Ballymun would be denied the rail link they have been promised since the 1960s. It would also mean that Swords continues to suffer with a sub-standard bus service which breaks down at the first signs of snow.

It doesn't have to be this way and, hopefully, by the end of this year, it won't be as Metro North will have cleared all obstacles and be set for boring in 2012.



I was under the impression both Barclays and HSBC had hit the exits and with AIB being within weeks of almost total nationalisation this leaves only a single bidder; is this not correct? Can you please list the consortia left in the process.


2, Celtic Metro Group and Metro Express.

The DTO platform for change listed 4 seperate metro lines

1. Tallaght via Kimmage
2. Lucan via Bluebell
3. Tara St to Tallaght via Finglas
4. Shanngannagh to the Airport

3 of these lines have been scrapped and the fourth can be taken in three sections

1. Shanngannagh to Cherrywood - defered due to a suspect cost benefit basis
2. Cherrywood to Stephens Green - built as Luas and with by far the highest population density on the route
3. Stephens Green to Airport - Clearly Luas loadings in terms of population density.


Lucan via Bluebell was actually going to be Luas, not Metro actually, and the RPA has fleshed this out with the Luas Line F proposal. The certainly do call for a Metro line from Shangannah to the Airport and Swords, but the map clearly indicates that what they were proposing was a lot heavier than a Luas line. If they were proposing a Luas line then it would be indicated on the map as other Luas lines are charted there too. This illustrates that the DTO abandoned any Luas line to the airport proposal and upgraded this to a Metro. Therefore these transport exports disagree with you and your fantasy Luas line.

There is no question that delivering Luas will upset motorists and require rerouting of bus routes in the city centre; I would however ask why would someone take the 16 bus all the way from Rathfarnham to Dublin Airport when they could get off in Camden Street and interchange to Luas at Harcourt?

If people had a cross city Luas it would change journey behaviour dramatically.

The only roadspace I see on the entire route as being highly problematic is Phibsboro; the area around Cross Guns Bridge is already a significant pinch point; that area would require a tunnel from the disused canal bank to St Mobhi Road where a football pich exists for a tunnel site; this would require a tunnel of just over 1kms in length.


You also need to consider Ballymun. The local residents have expressed a clear preference for an underground rail line through their area. You would also need to go underground at the airport because you couldn't have trams criss-crossing the apron. You also need to consider the need for grade separation around Swords which requires sections of elevated rail and cut-and-cover tunnels. This is all manageable when we're building a railway line with 17,000 maximum capacity, another story when we're doing it for your low capacity fantasy Luas line. And don't tell me that the demand doesn't exist there for a Metro line. The way you go on you'd swear it'd just be one man and his dog on the metros going from Stephen's Green to Swords. The fact is that cities with lower populations and lower population densities than Dublin also have underground Metro lines which are well-patronised. Another fact is that DART and Commuter rail services are in huge demand in the same Dublin through which metros will travel. They had to double capacity on the DART service to keep pace with demand as people responded to its high-speed, high capacity nature. Add to this that the 90m metros will have only 2/3rds the capacity of a DART train and there is no doubt that metros will be packed once they start running.



That Martin Cullen and Noel Dempsey slowed up the DART underground project deliberately should have no bearing on the delivery of that project. This is clearly now an either or situation the money is not there for both. Dempsey got his white elephant M3, Cullen his White Elephant M9, Bertie his head in a cupboard. For Swords Luas would be a great result given even the vastly overscaled DTO document didn't grant anything.


Martin Cullen and Noel Dempsey did not slow down the DART Underground project, it's due to CIÉ incompetence that it's taking so long. They originally proposed starting the tunnel at Heuston and boring from both ends. This changed when they added in Inchicore and decided to only bore from that end. They themselves imposed the delay when they changed the plans for DART Underground. Noel Dempsey only found out about the delay through the media. The point remains that DART Underground has only begun the railway order process, Metro North has one, CIÉ has only begun the tendering process, Metro North will have finished that by the Summer. MN is shovel ready, DART Underground is not and therefore should get the priority over the next year. Once DART Underground is finished its preliminary work by 2013, we should proceed with it too.
Cathal Dunne
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