The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Buildin

Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby CK » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:36 pm

As far as I'm concerned, there should be no non-architects proving architectural services direct to the public.
Surveyors, engineers and draughtspeople should be barred based on their lack of design competence and training.
Part I or Part II architects providing services through these non-design based offices should also be structly controlled.
You only have to look some of the results in the Irish countryside today to see what people with neither design ability nor training have produced.


I agree onq… But the term “Architect” should not define a title as it is per the current legislation. It shall define a profession. The access to the profession shall be opened to self-taught after a certain number of years in practice.

For the record:
Architectural technicians are a grey area, because their course introduce them to design of small buildings in third year.


What about architectural technologists?

I think only people who are trained or have shown they are competent to design should be allowed design and all such should be registered.
I think only such persons as have been assessed as being capable and competent should be providing services direct to the public.


Someone who has practiced for ten years or more is competent. You say that market assessment is not enough, but in the contrary it is much more valuable than any academic assessments. Someone who has practiced during 10 years proved that he has the skills to do so, as well as the skills to adapt to a fast changing working environment. Academic training is only a simulation… It does not reflect the real world…
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby CK » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:37 pm

copy of previous post deleted
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Re: Le Corbusier + issue of the title "Architect" and the Bu

Postby onq » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:15 pm

CK wrote:Will someone tell Paul that there is a mismatch between threads up here...


It looks like Paul merged the threads - not a problem really unless you're into thread multiplication for multiplications sake.

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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby parka » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:36 pm

CK wrote:What about architectural technologists?


I remember your original post regarding technicians on the boards, but now you want to join the CIAT, make your mind up, do you want to be an Architect or a Technician, trust me it's not really hard decision.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055500559


CK wrote: Don’t forget that I studied too. You may create some doubts in the mind of a fully self-trained architect on this subject, but not in mine.


Revit, Part M, forms of contract etc., yes we can all learn them, but it means nothing if you don't hold the appropriate qualifications
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby onq » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:56 am

CK wrote:
What about architectural technologists?



Allow me to direct you to the answer I gave on boards.ie, an answer Mellor agreed with.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php ... stcount=52

====================================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dafydd Thomas View Post
I just started architecture today in DIT and many of the architectural technologists I met were devastated (to say the least) that they didn't get architecture. I think if people fully understood the work of an architectural technologist there would be equal respect assigned to the profession as to architecture. Although I'd imagine the workload and pay wouldn't. I can't say I understand what they do, other than that it's a more "computer-based" profession.


As its a qualification deriving from a Technician background I imagine [rank speculation follows] that they are highly competent technically and have also competences in both how to run an office and how to administer a building contract.

I think an architect may be held in court to have greater liability than an architectural technologist [but I may be wrong on this].

In Ireland, the title Architectural Technologist is recognised by not protected by the Building Control Act 2007, whereas the title Architect is protected by said Act.

I think the architect will have a broader based approach to, and appreciation of, design - which is not limited to buildings but may include landscape, furniture and urban design.
The architect may have a more free-ranging process in which to arrive at a final design.
That's what you would expect from someone who successfully completed a full time five year design course with 4-6 major design projects per year and four design critiques per project - 16-24 in all per annum, excluding the Final Year Thesis.

-- De.Lite.Touch


============================

And yes, before you ask the obvious question *I* was posting as De.Lite.Touch...


I think only people who are trained or have shown they are competent to design should be allowed design and all such should be registered.
I think only such persons as have been assessed as being capable and competent should be providing services direct to the public.


Someone who has practiced for ten years or more is competent. You say that market assessment is not enough, but in the contrary it is much more valuable than any academic assessments. Someone who has practiced during 10 years proved that he has the skills to do so, as well as the skills to adapt to a fast changing working environment. Academic training is only a simulation… It does not reflect the real world…


I think that solely relying on their duration in practice as evidence of competence is a convenient argument by people who want to advance the theory of market "accreditation".

I discredited this nonsense from Montaut a good while ago by a simple reference to prostitution.
If the market is going to be taken as evidence of academic excellence then all prostitutes should be awarded Professorships.

It seems blatantly obvious that the work produced during this ten year period must be assessed - and that it must be assessed qualitatively, not just quantitatively - in order for competence to be shown both in terms of design as well as professional practice.


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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby Solo » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:09 am

Well well I see you boys are still at it. handbags at dawn should settle the problem. As for the Architects Alliance I am afraid they have lost their way of late and instead of setting the agenda and driving things forward they appear to have simply faded away. Not the sharpest tools in the box I think.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby CK » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:14 am

Parka,

I already explained that I am preparing my MCIAT instead of the ARAE because I cannot afford the second and because the ARAE seems to be a biased procedure designed to fail most applicants... In the contrary, CIAT appears to have created an exam which is hard work but affordable and honest.

Many of you criticize members of the Alliance who do not want to be assessed... Onq is only one of them...

The point that I am trying to make is that architects who were assessed 15 years ago, cannot pretend that their assessment suit the practice of architecture today. If these architects did not enter a self-learning phase, then they would not be in a position to practice today.

My question is: why aren't these architects assessed like self-taught for registration purposes, as their degrees do not reflect the necessary skills for practicing architecture today?

I understand everyone's concerns regarding the necessity of an assessment. But guys you have to be fair and honest here... Those who qualified 10 years ago cannot pretend that they were assessed as per today' standards. They must admit that like self-taught architects they have learned in practice.

In France there is no equivalent to the Building regulations (at least not when I left). We have building codes and building standards like B.S. or ISO and so on. But still a French or a German architect speaking English can register here within about 3 months and without assessment despite having no knowledge of the planning system or other building legislations.

Those who insist on established self-taught architects being assessed for registration today, should ask themselves why they do not request the same assessment to long established or foreign qualified architects...

I think that requesting an assessment for self-taught only is just a way to discriminate practitioners without recognized qualification. Specially when the assessment is prepared by an institute which represented professorially qualified architects for decade and which is still defending the interests of architectural education today.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby onq » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:37 am

CK wrote:Parka,

I already explained that I am preparing my MCIAT instead of the ARAE because I cannot afford the second and because the ARAE seems to be a biased procedure designed to fail most applicants... In the contrary, CIAT appears to have created an exam which is hard work but affordable and honest.

Many of you criticize members of the Alliance who do not want to be assessed... Onq is only one of them...

The point that I am trying to make is that architects who were assessed 15 years ago, cannot pretend that their assessment suit the practice of architecture today. If these architects did not enter a self-learning phase, then they would not be in a position to practice today.

My question is: why aren't these architects assessed like self-taught for registration purposes, as their degrees do not reflect the necessary skills for practicing architecture today?

I understand everyone's concerns regarding the necessity of an assessment. But guys you have to be fair and honest here... Those who qualified 10 years ago cannot pretend that they were assessed as per today' standards. They must admit that like self-taught architects they have learned in practice.

In France there is no equivalent to the Building regulations (at least not when I left). We have building codes and building standards like B.S. or ISO and so on. But still a French or a German architect speaking English can register here within about 3 months and without assessment despite having no knowledge of the planning system or other building legislations.

Those who insist on established self-taught architects being assessed for registration today, should ask themselves why they do not request the same assessment to long established or foreign qualified architects...

I think that requesting an assessment for self-taught only is just a way to discriminate practitioners without recognized qualification. Specially when the assessment is prepared by an institute which represented professorially qualified architects for decade and which is still defending the interests of architectural education today.



CK,

There is no resistance from me in relation to re-testing MRIAI's.

Not only has the detailing in buildings moved on hugely [and stupidly, when you analyse the effects on occupants of some of these passive ventilation efforts] but the legislative requirements for someone employing people has become a minefield of potentional legal actions for the unwary.

But even in relation to older MRIAI's the point is that AT ONE TIME, they had achieved a standard of excellence covering the broad range of professional practice, contract and legislation necessary to run an office competently.

You might need to update the details, now and again, but once you achieved it, you never really lose that overview.
The point being that unless you've had to pull yourself together to be assessed independently, most people won't reach that plateau.
And therein in my opinion may lie the nub of the matter from the Registrar's point of view in relation to the AAoI stance.
The AAoI want no independent qualitative assessment of the work of their Members by the Assessment Board.

They just want to dump a shedload of their work in and say "there we did all that - now Register us please."

AFAICS there is no point claiming that merely because a building in a rural area achieved planning permission and fire safety certificate approval that a decent standard of work was reached.
That would rest entirely on the quality of those officers of the council assessing their work as well as the demands of the client.
If the general ethos in a rural area is that a watertight shed constitutes good design merely because its watertight and built roughly in the right location, the standards demanded of the design team may not be that onerous.

I guess we'll have to wait for that elusive exhibition of AAOI Members work to form an opinion.

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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby onq » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:43 am

Solo wrote:Well well I see you boys are still at it. handbags at dawn should settle the problem. As for the Architects Alliance I am afraid they have lost their way of late and instead of setting the agenda and driving things forward they appear to have simply faded away. Not the sharpest tools in the box I think.



Ahhh, the big "S" returns to the place where it all started.

Look at all the trouble you've helped cause!

LOL!

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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby spoilsport » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:32 pm

hi lads,

just dropping in to look at the new forum, to see if the handbags are still ongoing , which i am pleased to see they are indeed proceeding well !! , but I must admit this thread is a complete bugger to find now, where is the "todays posts" button, and even when I trawled back to the 15th Oct 2006 when the thread started by Meoww, I could not see this thread posted ?. I could only find it when I logged in, and used my user control panel,, . I am reluctant to agree with CK, but has the Big Brothers within the brethern in Merrion, put the clampers on this thread, or am I beginning to suffer from the frenchmans paranoia :{ could Paul Clerkin or someone please enlighten me on the subject, as I love to drop in and enjoy the fun when I am bored.. Has the special branch of the RIAI been applying thumbscrews.. oh shit ! I hope they dont come knocking on my office door, because they have to get behind the Local Authority rates collector, as Iam lying down on the floor now, pretending im not in...


yours

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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:19 pm

Will stick a link up top - if you go to archiseek pages, you'll see latest discussion in right hand sidebar too
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby spoilsport » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:40 pm

Dooooooohhh!! :) silly me!

Phew !!! The rates collectors have gone now, for another while, when I get paid, they will get paid... what more can one ask for..

thanks Paul ,


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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby CK » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:22 pm

There is no resistance from me in relation to re-testing MRIAI's.


No but I guess that there will be some from MRIAIs if the Act is modified this way…

But even in relation to older MRIAI's the point is that AT ONE TIME, they had achieved a standard of excellence covering the broad range of professional practice, contract and legislation necessary to run an office competently.


Agreed… But like self-taught architects they had to learn by themselves after that, and they were never assessed to prove that they learned properly… For obvious reasons they cannot be assessed by the RIAI, I would be delighted to assess them, this should help me financing the cost of passing the ARAE. I think that I just found my way to the register; I need to talk to John Graby about that, I guess that Solo got his phone number… Thanks to pass it over...

The AAoI want no independent qualitative assessment of the work of their Members by the Assessment Board.


ONQ you refuse to understand the problem here. By setting up the ARAE and the Technical Assessment as they are today, the RIAI has proven its bad faith, and the institute’s agenda is clearly to minimize the entry of self-taughts to the register.

The institute defends the interests of architectural education in Ireland and it is clearly against the interests of the schools and universities to let self-trained architects accessing the register.

The assessments for self-taughts as set up today, were not designed to check competency for the provision of services, they were designed to limit as much as possible the entries to the register.

For the very large majority of the Alliance the issue is not to be assessed. The issue is to be assessed by the RIAI which defends interests in clear conflict with its role as an assessor. Even if universities and schools were to assess self-taughts, the conflict would still be there and obvious as self-taughts did not pay for their education.

However, what many on this thread fail to say is that self-taught architects rarely earn as much as those who are qualified and they never earned that much when they first started in an office learning the profession.

It is not about being assessed that disturbs the Alliance onq… It is to be assessed unfairly when MRIAI were automatically registered months before anyone had an opportunity to do so…
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby onq » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:04 pm

Look CK, you really need to develop a more philosophical attitude towards this.

Right now, for you and the AAoI, John O'Donoghue's Bill represents your best chance to become Registered affordably.

Here the lack of AAoI numbers might support their position because numbers play a part in Irish law.

For example, some legislation in relation to entering agreements re: notifications to employees may only apply to companies with 50 or more employees.

This effectively excludes SME's.

If the RIAI are suggesting that the issue here is risk to the public, and the risk to the public is relatively low, then their argument is diluted.

So if there are only 200 AAoI Members, as opposed to 1,000 there may be a significantly lower statistical risk.

Plus if the kind of work AAoI Members are working on is domestic in scale, again, the overall risk is lower.

Finally if the wording gets amended to ensure that entry to Grandfathers Status is limited and not ongoing, any risk that exists now will diminish over time.

However the RIAI will argue that there is a difficulty in relation to AAoI members who have generated sizeable offices around them engaging in Mid-Range Commercial work.

This is where the numbers game is less effective, however one AAoI Member I know is happy to show his work.

Including work he took over jobs from Institute Members to correct and re-mediate the design and built work.

LOL!

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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby onq » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:03 pm

Where is the Poll gone Paul?

It used to be at the top of this thread and never varied much from 66% support for an ARB style Registration Board.

It looks like its disappeared.

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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby batten » Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:52 pm

dear oh dear, looks like the snatch squad of the RIAI have done it again!
just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby onq » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:46 am

The phrase is:

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."

Stick to what you're good at, there's a good lad.

:)

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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby onq » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:50 am

And while I'm on Paul, what's gone on with the metrics of this thread.

Replies: 1191

Views: 354

How can there be four times fewer views than replies?

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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby Solo » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:26 am

Slipping down the ranks boys need to spice this up or risk becoming irrelavent.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby onq » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:02 pm

Allow me to point out the obvious yet again.

Replies: 1194

Views: 381

The views cannot be lower than the Replies.

My posts alone top 907 - how can the thread views be so low?

Is this since the changeover?

Then how could the Catholic Churche thread viewa stay so high?

But its good to see you're back from whatever faffing around you were on for the past few months.

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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby apelles » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:13 pm

That must be the amount of views since the changeover, it obviously wasn't updated properly.
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby onq » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:13 pm

apelles wrote:That must be the amount of views since the changeover, it obviously wasn't updated properly.


<nods>

That was my thought too, but then I noticed most other threads seemed to have updated okay.

A mystery - or CK's paranoia is having an effect!

Agggghhk!

;)

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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby CK » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:51 pm

onq wrote:
apelles wrote:That must be the amount of views since the changeover, it obviously wasn't updated properly.


<nods>

That was my thought too, but then I noticed most other threads seemed to have updated okay.

A mystery - or CK's paranoia is having an effect!

Agggghhk!

;)

ONQ.


Are you really that naive onq? Paul obviously receives donations from RIAI members...

By the way Paul, I would like to be removed from the members' list of these biased forums... How can I manage that?

It seems that you are able to remove any information that you like from the threads... I do not feel comfortable to be part of such a scam. Then please remove all my data or I will lodge a complaint to a relevant authority.

You cannot manipulate a discussion in a way that change the outcome. This is outrageous, especially if members cannot opt out.

I will contact you privately on this subject...

HAPPY NEW YEAR...
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby Paul Clerkin » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:25 pm

You, Sir, are a nut.
I do not interfere with threads or take donations to change them.

If the number do not co-incide that is merely an unfortunate site effect of the import of the old boards into the new boards or more probably the merging of the many many threads that you start on the same subject when you become bogged down arguing in circles. If the poll is gone, it is because of the forums merge.

Alternatively crack units of the MRIAI Ninja Taskforce may actually be hacking into your computer from their mountain lair in Wicklow
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Re: The sensitive issue of the title "Architect" and the Bui

Postby onq » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:47 pm

Paul Clerkin wrote:You, Sir, are a nut.
I do not interfere with threads or take donations to change them.

If the number do not co-incide that is merely an unfortunate site effect of the import of the old boards into the new boards or more probably the merging of the many many threads that you start on the same subject when you become bogged down arguing in circles. If the poll is gone, it is because of the forums merge.

Alternatively crack units of the MRIAI Ninja Taskforce may actually be hacking into your computer from their mountain lair in Wicklow


Aha! So the theory that the acronym R I A I should really be spelt I I R A begins to bear fruit!

A sekrit agint grope in Wicklah! Makes more sense than most of CK's posts!

Happy New Year!

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