One Berkley court -132m Tower

Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby reddy » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:17 pm

God almighty, the man's got balls...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1002/1224255680102.html

Taken from the Irish Times, 2nd Sept 09, written by BARRY O'HALLORAN

DEVELOPER SEÁN Dunne has lodged a new planning application for the high-profile Ballsbridge, Dublin, site which he bought four years ago for a record €379 million.

Last January, An Bord Pleanála shot down Mr Dunne’s original plans for what were the Jurys and Berkeley hotels sites

in Ballsbridge, one of the capital’s more prestigious addresses.

Yesterday, D4 Hotels, the Seán Dunne-controlled company that now runs the hotels, submitted fresh plans to Dublin City Council, for a €300 million development at the site featuring a hotel, apartments, shops and public services, such as childcare facilities and a medical centre.

The new plans provide for a tower of 15 storeys. The unsuccessful bid included a 37-storey tower, which was one of the reasons that the planning appeals board turned down the application.

The alternative that D4 Hotels is now proposing deals with the points raised by An Bord Pleanála, including reducing the maximum height and keeping trees and railings along the Lansdowne Road side of the site.

It has rolled back on the original retail element of the plans and is limiting proposed shopping space to “neighbourhood” scale, about one-fifth of what was originally proposed, and cuts out offices and embassy use entirely.

There is a bigger emphasis on residential development, with family-sized apartments forming a large part of the plan. The company said it is proposing to replace car parks with public spaces.

The hotel will be a seven-storey building and will have 135 bedrooms. Currently there are two hotels on the site.

“The current proposals fully address the January 2009 refusal by An Bord Pleanála of the previous application,” D4 Hotels told The Irish Times yesterday.

If it gets the go-ahead, the new development will cost €300 million and will create an average of 450 building jobs, rising to a peak of 675, according to the company.

Along with that, it estimates that it will create a further 180 jobs “off site”. It says that over the longer term, the completed development will employ 600 people. Overall, D4 Hotels estimates that this will add €22 million a year to the economy.

Mr Dunne bought the Ballsbridge site from Jurys-Doyle Hotels in 2005 for €379 million, a record price approaching €58 million an acre. Glenkerrin Homes topped that within months when it paid €84 million an acre for the old veterinary college, which is close by.

Mr Dunne also owns Hume House in Ballsbridge, adjacent to the D4 Hotels site. He acquired this from original owner Irish Life by swopping it for a docklands office block.

He has subsequently said that he paid 35 per cent of the original purchase price. He borrowed the rest from Ulster Bank, which is owned by Royal Bank of Scotland.

It is unlikely that he has arranged any financing for his new proposals, as they face a long planning process.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:04 pm

it's not really as if he has a choice

who's the architect?
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jdivision » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:17 pm

D4hotels.ie has today lodged a planning application for their site at Ballsbridge, Dublin 4 currently home to the Ballsbridge Inn and Towers and D4 Berkeley Hotels.

The proposed development is primarily residential in nature and includes other compatible uses such as hotel, retail, restaurants/cafés/bars, medical/healthcare and childcare facilities. The design is by O’Mahony Pike Architects one of Irelands leading Architectural Practices and RIAI Silver Medal for Housing award winners 2009. The proposed development complies fully with the Dublin City Council Development Plan 2005-2011 and the Z1 zoning which requires development to be primarily residential in nature on this site.

The current proposals fully address the January 2009 refusal by An Bord Pleanála of the previous application. The previous application was primarily refused for the reasons of height (37 stories), removal of trees and railings on Lansdowne Road, office, embassy and excessive retail uses which were considered to be contrary to the Z1 zoning of this strategic site. Recognising the reasons for refusal of the previous application the developers now propose 12 buildings with a predominant height of 9 storeys with 2 corner elements of 15 storeys, which are located on the axis of Pembroke Road. The trees and railings on Lansdowne Road are to be retained, which was a primary concern of previous objections. The residential buildings are set back approximately 8 metres from the railings on Lansdowne Road and all surface car parking is relocated below ground. All existing surface car parks are now proposed to be converted to gardens and/or public open spaces. No office or embassy uses are proposed and the retail element is now of neighbourhood scale being less than 20% of that which was previously proposed.

The new plans propose large scale family residential homes, average size 131 m2 (1,400 sq ft) and associated uses which are permissible under the existing Z1 zoning and considered to be compatible with the existing residential amenity and the surrounding neighbourhood.



The proposed development will provide new pedestrian streets and public plazas along with new exceptionally high quality residential apartments. The design creates a new civic/public plaza at the junction of Lansdowne and Pembroke Roads located around the new proposed 135 bedroom hotel, 7 storeys in height which fronts onto Pembroke Road, adjacent to the former Veterinary College site.

The proposed development will result in construction expenditure of €300 million representing a significant and much needed boost for the construction industry. Direct on site employment during the 5 year construction period will be an average of 450 full time jobs, rising to 675 at the peak of activity. The project will generate an additional 180 jobs a year off-site over the duration of construction.

Once construction is complete, the development will employ c500 people. Taking indirect employment into account, the gross employment impact of the project will be c600 jobs per annum into the local, city, regional and national economies on a long term and permanent basis. As a result of these jobs, the project will also generate a significant amount of money into the economy which in GVA terms equates to €22 million per annum.


In summary the proposed development provides an excellent high quality residential development and is a prime example of best practise in terms of apartment types, sizes, public and private open spaces incorporating a range of facilities required to serve the existing residents who wish to relocate in the area as well as new residents moving to Ballsbridge. The apartment sizes will cater for a major void currently not found in new developments in Dublin City by creating apartments which range in size from 64 m2 (700 sq ft) for a one bedroom apartment to 278 m2 (3,000 sq ft) for a four bedroom penthouse, which are much sought after and required by foreign direct investment executives moving to Dublin for short periods.

Residential
The development contains the following accommodation: 568 No. residential units, comprising 70 No. 1-bed apartments, 285 No. 2-bed apartments, 97 No. 2-bed apartments with study, 82 No. 3-bed apartments, 22 No. 4 bed duplex apartments, and 12 No. 4 bed penthouse apartments arranged in 12 Blocks. The average floor area of the apartments is 131 m2 (1400 sq ft) being very generous family sized apartments. The apartments range in size from 64 m2 (700 sq ft) to 278 m2 (3,000 sq ft).

Hotel
A 135 No. bedroom hotel with leisure/spa facilities, conference facilities, and restaurants and a sky bar on the 7th floor.

Retail
A ground floor anchor retail unit, together with a number of neighbourhood shops such as butcher, barber/hairdresser, newsagent, pharmacy, drycleaner and retail shopping are also proposed.

Restaurant/Caf̩/Bar РA number of restaurant/caf̩/bars are provided at ground floor level and comprise a total area of 1,682 m2.

Crèche/Childcare
A new crèche is proposed at the junction of Lansdowne Road with Shelbourne Road and will cater for up to 82 children.

Medical Healthcare Facility
A healthcare facility is provided at the junction of Lansdowne Road with Shelbourne Road, to provide for Dentistry, Physiotherapy and general medical rooms.

Car Parking
Underground car parking for 963 cars and 700 bicycles is provided.

Attachments
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby garethace » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:03 pm

I was reading snipets about it in the newspapers today. It is funny, even in today's harsh economic circumstances, developing this site doesn't sound too crazy. You can almost visualise the project getting partially completely, or at least 'under way' by the time we experience the next upturn. Bearing in mind that future upturn will be a very muted affair compared to previous experience. I know there are all of the issues in the forefront of peoples' minds these days - are these guys solvent, how are they still operating and so forth. But when I think about it, Sean Dunne made sure to outbid everyone else for this land - not because he wanted to build on it and take advantage of the Celtic Tiger - he is much too experienced a developer to think he could tackle all the planning issues, and design/construction matters that quickly - What I have realised is that Sean Dunne bought this land to have something with which to occupy himself during the recession.

Now here is the thing your see. None of these developers had factored in 'The Perfect Storm' of recession circumstances. They all knew they were at the crest of a wave and facing down into a very large trough - but no one expected the entire financial system across the globe to become a model only fit for garbage, which has to be flung away now. You see, if the situation had not become so dire (Dire-land) none of the skeletons would have been exposed. The ordinary Irish man in the street who doesn't know (A) What an architect is (B) what a property developer is, or (C) The size of loans associated with both those types of individuals - the ordinary man in the street has got a basic beginner's lesson in this arrangement, this summer, especially on foot of the Zoe developments court case. But one can imagine a situation, in which the global financial system had struggled on in it's old guise at least a while longer, and we never would have got a front seat to the train wreck we are now witnesses to.

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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby PVC King » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:06 am

I wouldn't get overly carried away by the economic climate as there will always be a strong demand for accomodation, retail and leisure space in Ballsbridge. What I can't figure out is the pricing model for the apartments, assuming €1,000 a square foot as a realistic sale value will particularly spacious 3 beds make c€1.4m with north of 500 of them on the market within a 5 year period? That said the damage was done in the site purchase price and that a realistic proposal that should sail through planning for this site has now emerged is very positive news for all concerned.

O'Mahoney Pike appear to have delivered a good scheme which will fit in well with buildings such as Landsdowne House, American Embassy and the building once occupied by Texaco. The retention of the trees and railings on Lansdowne Road is also particularly welcome. With the stadium opening shortly it looks like Ballsbridge is moving forward quite nicely!!
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby gunter » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:42 am

Some posts grabbed from the Alto Vetro thread:

Yesterday, 08:34 PM
Yixian:

[INDENT]''Still, D4 is still up in the air until they finally decide on what form the Ballsbridge development will take..

Jeez, I wish they had just let the first high rise plan go ahead, One Berkley Court would have been spectacular''.[/INDENT]


Yesterday, 10:34 PM
Cathal Dunne:

[INDENT]''I agree. I can't stand Seán Dunne as a person, but his plans for the area were very dramatic, confident and would have added a lot to Ballsbridge. It's so unfortunate that his plans were shot down''. [/INDENT]

Today, 09:42 AM
thebig C:

[INDENT]''The Landmark 37 storey building was truely excellant. The rest of the surrounding 6-15 storey brink slab sided buildings were absolute dross.

However, rather predictably it was the tower which drew all the ire from the ususl suspects and the good citizens of D4. In fact before ABP shot the whole thing down, Dublin City Council were prepared to let the development go ahead minus the tower!......proof if it were needed that they are purely concerned with height not quality!''[/INDENT]


I can understand some wistful fondness for the days of ambition and sky scrapers, but we can't afford to forget that this scheme would have represented a massive distortion in the planning of Dublin's central business district and a huge imposition on the still legible19th century streetscapes of a decent inner Dublin suburb.

From what I've seen of the new scheme, it's much more modest in scale, but woefully less ambitious in terms of architecture, urbanism and adding new connections.

It's like as if they've just stopped trying.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby hutton » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:37 pm

gunter wrote:this scheme would have represented a massive distortion in the planning of Dublin's central business district and a huge imposition on the still legible19th century streetscapes of a decent inner Dublin suburb.


Agreed, agreed, agreed... (Or should that be "A greed"?)

"Destruction of Dublin" clearly documents how the city became derelict the last time the CBD was allowed move to BBridge in thee 60s. Never again.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby gunter » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:09 pm

There's more than a touch of ''the '60s'' about the design of the current proposal too :rolleyes:

When's the last time we saw block planning like this?

Image

There's not even a wavy line . . . or one of those cutting edge diagonals we all love so much :)

Who'd have thought Stillorgan Shopping Centre would make a comeback in 2009?
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby jdivision » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:27 pm

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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby Paul Clerkin » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:27 pm

Banks take large stake in Dunne's D4 empire

By Cormac Murphy

Friday February 12 2010

BANKS have taken a significant stake in developer Sean Dunne's property empire in Ballsbridge.

Ulster Bank, Dutch lender Rabobank and a third foreign-owned lender have taken holdings in the sites of the Jurys, Towers and Berkeley Court hotels, which had a combined value of €379m in 2005.

Mr Dunne is engaged in his second bid to turn the sites into a €1bn retail, residential and office development along the lines of London's Knightsbridge.

His planning application with Dublin City Council for the zone is at the additional information stage.

The previous plan, which included a proposal for a 37-storey tower, was rejected by An Bord Pleanala, having received partial approval from the council.

A recent estimation by Mr Dunne put the value of the Berkeley Court, which he bought for €122m in 2005, at just €87.4m, a 28.6pc depreciation in the value of the 2.16-acre site.

Documents published today reveal that two companies controlled by Ulster Bank, Rabobank and the British unit of the fallen Icelandic bank Kaupthing have taken stakes in the three hotels.

The papers lodged with the Companies' Office show that one of Mr Dunne's companies has agreed to continue renting the sites.

The developer insisted the three hotels, now called D4 Hotels, remain open for business, claiming they have "re-energised" the hotel industry in Ireland.

Mr Dunne paid nearly €54m per acre for the site of the Jurys and Towers hotels in late 2005 from the Jurys Doyle Hotel Group.

A few months later, he splashed out €57m an acre for the adjoining Berkeley Court.

In its request for additional information on Mr Dunne's latest plan for the hotel sites, the council indicated the developer will have to significantly revise his scheme.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:53 am

herrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeee we go again



The Irish Times - Tuesday, August 10, 2010

Appeals against Jurys site expected

FRANK McDONALD Environment Editor

APPEALS ARE expected to be made to An Bord Pleanála against Dublin City Council’s decision to approve developer Seán Dunne’s revised plans for the Jurys/Berkeley Court hotels site in Ballsbridge.

Billionaire financier Dermot Desmond along with An Taisce, the Dublin South East branch of the Green Party, Fine Gael TD Lucinda Creighton, the Lansdowne and District Residents Association and the Pembroke Road Association were among those who objected to the scheme.

Mr Desmond described the design as “bland, uninteresting, typical of many nondescript and uninteresting buildings that lie unused and unlikely to be used throughout the city of Dublin in the foreseeable future” and objected to its “rigid approach of squares and rectangles”.

Ms Creighton, in her letter to the planners, said it was “not realistic” of the developer to be proposing 568 apartments on a 2.8-hectare (nearly seven-acre) site “to recoup some of the losses he has incurred on the purchase of this site”, which he bought for €379 million in 2006.

She also said “tower blocks” of up to 15 storeys “would dominate the streetscapes” of Ballsbridge. However, she welcomed the fact that taller buildings would be set back from the street and that some of the existing trees (mainly evergreen oaks) would be retained.

Tom Phillips, planning consultant for Mr Dunne’s company, Mountbrook Homes, said the latest scheme – designed by OMP Architects – “ticked all the boxes” of the current Dublin City Development Plan in terms of apartment sizes, open space provision and other standards.

He explained that the design team had used An Bord Pleanála’s decision to refuse permission for the earlier scheme on the grounds of “gross overdevelopment” as a starting point to recast it, so that what was proposed would be in full compliance with the city plan.

Mr Phillips said the board, in its decision to reject plans that included a 37-storey tower, had indicated that it “wanted x, y and z, so we did x, y and z”. The design team had also addressed every issue raised by the council’s planners in their detailed request for further information.

“We’re delighted with the decision,” he said. “It’s a very clean permission with only one material change – an apartment at ground-floor level is to be converted to a retail unit.”

The overall number of apartments had already been reduced from 568 to 535, at the planners’ request.

Mr Phillips said the size of the apartments being proposed for the Jurys/Berkeley Court sites were “bigger than the average Irish house”, with three-beds averaging 192sq m and four-beds 224sq m.

Asked if it was realistic to be proposing so many, given the current depressed state of the property market, and whether it was likely that they would be built, he said: “On a phased basis, over the 10-year life of the permission, I would be optimistic. It is Ballsbridge after all.”

Apart from residential, the scheme includes 4,083sq m (43,950sq ft) of retail, 1,827sq m (19,666sq ft) of restaurants, cafes and bars, 1,670sq m (17,975sq ft) of creches and healthcare facilities and a 6,500sq m (69,966sq ft) for a 151-bedroom, four-star hotel.

All existing buildings on the site, primarily the two hotels, would be demolished. But the “vast majority” of the trees would be retained as well as most of the perimeter railings.

Mr Phillips also pointed out that the plot ratio (the overall floorspace of the buildings in relation to the area of the site) was lower than in the schemes proposed by Glenkerrin for the adjoining veterinary college site and Mountbrook itself for the site of Hume House next door.

“This ticks all the boxes in terms of plan-led development,” he said.

“And it wasn’t a case of limbo dancing, because we’ve greatly exceeded the standards specified for apartment sizes and open space. We’ve also taken account of microclimatic conditions and done wind tunnel tests.”

Given An Bord Pleanála’s decision to grant permission to Mountbrook for the redevelopment of Hume House, which was designed by HKR Architects, Mr Phillips said he was “very hopeful” that the board would also approve the latest scheme for the Jurys/Berkeley Court site
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby gunter » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:19 am

It might have 'ticked all the [planning] boxes', but I didn't see a shread of architecture in that scheme . . . . . . unless there's been a Milton Keynes revival I hadn't heard about.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby hutton » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:40 pm

gunter wrote:It might have 'ticked all the [planning] boxes', but I didn't see a shread of architecture in that scheme . . . . . .


Do you mean this box?

Dunne & Dusted's New Consent wrote:
Condition no xx:
.
The self-confessed 'technically bankrupt' applicant will agree to pay a sizable Development Levy to the Local Authority so we can all continue to play along as if it is still Celtic Tiger la la land.

Tick box here >

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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby aj » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:44 pm

hutton wrote:Do you mean this box?


brilliant:):p
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby PVC King » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:00 pm

i haven't seen the revised application so I have no idea how appropriate it is in terms of interacting with Pembroke Road; which is to my mind a very attractive urban space with two of the best early commercial office schemes built in Dublin in Texaco and the US Embassy which is a much finer example than their London equivelent.

That said two issues I think are relevant to the discussion; firstly the scheme is no longer controlled by Sean Dunne, it is controlled by the syndicate of banks that lent money for this scheme on the strength of assets that he no longer owns.

Secondly the site is a couple of hundred metres from Dart at Landsdowne Rd; with a high quality transport connectivity and walkability to the Dublin 2 core office district; a higher than usual density should I feel be permitted.

What was clearly missing from the original application was been moving the blocks around in a manner that respected Pembroke and Landsdowne Roads.

What is clearly required is an outcome that does not damage the character of Dublin's most attractive mixed use district whilst providing the City with a density boost and the banks with an exit route by way of an agreed planning consent that could be sold on to an International developer or pension pool.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby BostonorBerlin » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:33 pm

hows the tower coming along...
send all responses to Sean Dunne care of Greenwich , Conneticut...
http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 09918.html
I told ye'se all it was bunch of bollix, none of ye'se listened ... too much preening going on.

BostonorBerlin wrote:How are things going on the tower. :D
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/business/worldbusiness/04ireland.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp

Thers some crackers in here...well worth a read
JoePublic wrote:I don't see how Sean Dunne's finances are at all relevant. The scheme should be judged on its merits alone, and how it fits in with whether or not we want a high density future for Dublin.


wearnicehats wrote:of course there's money involved. no-one is stupid enough to ignore that. Neither is Sean Dunne stupid enough to know that he still makes money if the tower gets chopped in half. He had a competition, got a good and renowned architect and he's put it up to the planners. Let's see what happens
BTW anyone who wants to experience the positive and constructive nature of mickletterfeck's contributions to this site should visit this thread
http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4439
thank the lord ODT didn't get get the job


jdivision wrote:And there was I thinking developers developed for nothing. Of course it's about money. Along the way it helps if it improves on what's there, ie, a bunch of drab horrible buildings that are past their sell by date. That's what this debate is about. The issue of Dunne making a profit is so obvious it doesn't need to be mentioned, it's what all developers do. The issue of high rise for Ballsbridge is not a hard one. There is no village centre, it's walking distance from the city centre and close to major public transport links. In short it's probably the best location in Dublin for high rise along with the docklands. This thing of oh it's unsuitable for Ballsbridge when there's relatively tall buildings in the area - dating from the 1970s in the main, when there was much lower densities than are presently allowed - is nonsensical.


alonso wrote:mick thanks for the lesson. We had thought Mountbrook was an arm of Respond until you came along. Whatever about the social make up of this place, having wealthy people living in towers is better than having them in outer suburban sprawl. And if this scheme is successful we can finally throw off the shackles of high rise in Ireland whereby every ignorant buffoon, when confronted with anything over 6 storeys retorts "not another Ballymun".



massamann wrote:I have a confession to make.

Its something that has been eating up inside of me for years and now - due to MickLetterfracks nuanced debating - I have to admit it: I too go to work mainly for the money. Yeah, sure, I get a sense of achievement of out some of the things that I do, and I enjoy the company of my work colleagues, but I'm guessing Sean Dunne does too. In fact, given that Sean Dunne is far richer than I am, and as he could probably retire tomorrow if he wanted too, it's probably less about the money for him than it is for me. Damn.

Up to now, I hadn't realised that working to earn money was wrong. And it leaves me in a bit of a quandry: If I shouldn't work for money, and my hobbies are now to become my job, then how do I afford to put food on the table? Or should I just suffer for my art?

Then again, why does it matter if Sean Dunne makes a profit as long as the design succeeds? Is this not the main question? Personally, I'd prefer if a design conscious developer made money, so that they can afford to take their design conscious ass and develop another site.

Or am I missing something here? :confused:


Rory W wrote:Spot on Alonso - as someone who was 2 hours late for work this morning due to train failure on the (grim up) northern line I'd sooner see this sort of development act as a catylist for decent high rise in the CC so that it (a) civilises high rise living and the city centre as a place for families (b) develops sufficent density for a proper metro and (c) stops the constant sprawl of dross which is destroying this country


jdivision wrote:Eh land prices in Ballsbridge have pretty much doubled since he bought it. So actually he got a fairly good deal.


wearnicehats wrote:Don’t forget that prior to the sale of Jurys Ballsbridge Sean Dunne was Jurys’ largest single shareholder at nearly 19% of the company. Seeing as how the papers this weekend put the sale of the chain at between €750 and €950million, Mr. Dunne will have made a few quid back.

Also, he says in his letter that he only took control of the hotel in September this year. Many deals where a company needs “money” are structured in such a way that very little “money” changes hands. You might find that big interest payments only kicked in recently

And, as Matt cooper said in May 2006, “One wonders what Ahern, Cowen and other ministers make of their friend's ambitious plans to reshape the landscape of Dublin 4. Will they support, object or affect neutrality, as if this is merely a commercial matter of no real interest to politicians? Will friendship with Dunne influence their thinking? Eventually, of course, it will come down to the planners, and what they think is in the best interests of the development of the city. And we can have every confidence that they'll make the right decisions, oblivious to all factors of wealth, influence and begrudgery. Can't we?”

So his position might not be as shaky as people think.

But, as our mad friend who has just made the 10 minute trip from his desk to his padded cell alluded to, Dunne’s just committed himself to a minimum of 1 year in the planning process and another 4 on site. That’s still, financially, a bit tasty.

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons - what if the “it’ll never get built” crowd are right, but for none of the above.

What if Sean Dunne has no intention of building anything. What if he’s got the high of the deal, the competition, the spotlight. What if he’s using the site as collateral to finance other deals. What if, in 18 months time, he simply sells the site. Even if he gets €70million per acre (not unreasonable) he’ll turn a tidy profit. And if his planning is refused he can leave head held high. If it is granted, he’ll get even more cash for the site.

What if……


wearnicehats wrote:I was going to write something but then I realised that nothing would sum it up better.

Rory W wrote:I was going to respond to him but words literally failed me


jdivision wrote:Dunne paid €379 million for the two sites in 2005, but the fact that he had not actually taken ownership escaped most people, until he pointed it out in a letter to this paper last month.

"Dunne was silent about the precise point at which he took on the responsibility for the very large loans that finance his deal, but presumably the meter is now well and truly running."
It was included in sale documents and publicly stated that Jurys Doyle would not hand over the properties for two years after the sale.


"it is at the same time very hard at this stage to see how he will make any money out of the project without driving a coach and four though the planning laws."

He needs an average of 8 storeys on the site to make a sizable profit from what other developers have told me.


"McNamara estimates that his construction, site clearance and finance costs will work out at around €1 billion, or just over €3,300 per square metre for his 300,000sq m mixed use development."
Not comparing like with like, Irish Glass Bottlers site is a former dump so much more expensive site clearance. He has no idea what interest rate Dunne is paying or how loan is structured, McNamara offered a 17 per cent per annum guaranteed return to investors for some of the finance. Dunne's finance costs will be much lower. Somebody here suggested a 5.25 per cent bond.

"More specifically, McNamara expects to get €625,000 for a two-bed apartment when his development comes on stream over the next five years. It is a reasonable assumption given current prices, even allowing for the current weakness in the property market. If anything , these prices look a little cheap for Ballsbridge in five years' time, but using them compensates for the conservative approach to Dunne's costs."
The approach to costs wasn't conservative as previously explained. In addition Dunne is on record is saying that the cheapest apartment will be more than e1 million. Why start using a e625,000 figure. Comparing Ringsend to Ballsbridge in terms of selling price per square metre is ludicrous.

"And if he doesn't get his towers, then the finances of his project look far less robust. It also calls into question the viability of whatever projects the developers who paid even more than Dunne for the adjoining sites in Ballsbridge have in mind. The €54 million an acre paid by Dunne is dwarfed by the €83 million an acre paid by Ray Grehan for an adjoining site and the €133 million an acre paid by Gerry O'Reilly for his site."

Ray Grehan paid e171.5 million for his site and expects it to have a completion value of e600 million. Based on standard developer profits of 30 per cent he stands to earn nearly e200 million if ressie values are steady in a few years time.


"Whatever problems Dunne must face, their difficulties will be significantly greater. It is hard to see any of them, Dunne included, making money unless the planning laws are rewritten massively in their favour."
There is already high rise in the immediate area, most of it dating back more than 30 years when densities and plot ratios were lower. Hardly planning laws being rewritten for him when Lansdowne got planning less than a kilometre away.

It's armchair economics from McManus TBH.


jdivision wrote:SD hasn't been to Galway races in three yearas alonso


BostonorBerlin wrote:Oi Wearnicehats Im guessing you read the papers - still reckon SD will get 70 million an acre ?



Yep Kefu .. Id say their beating down Sean Dunnes door to spend a million on an apartment .


Its "architectural merits" are sure to bring home the bacon, seems to be working for all the other box extensions/contemporary/clean line/minimalist pads whose prices are dropping thru their marble floors.. too funny ...:)



kefu wrote:Before people start talkin' about those commuting from two hours away, this proposal will have absolutely zero impact on this. It's not unrealistic that starting prices here will be beginning (and this is conservative) at around E800,000. More likely in fact is that every single apartment in this complex will cost more than E1 million. It seems likely that many of these will be bought up by investors or for the very wealthy as a second home. None of the people commuting from Portlaoise, Virginia, Gorey or whereever are going to be moving into this scheme.
One Berkeley Court is a development for the very rich, as befits its locations in Dublin 4.
So for anybody making this argument, give me a break.
Let the project stand on its architectural merits and that alone.


wearnicehats wrote: What if Sean Dunne has no intention of building anything. What if he’s got the high of the deal, the competition, the spotlight. What if he’s using the site as collateral to finance other deals. What if, in 18 months time, he simply sells the site. Even if he gets €70million per acre (not unreasonable) he’ll turn a tidy profit. And if his planning is refused he can leave head held high. If it is granted, he’ll get even more cash for the site.
What if……

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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby kefu » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:37 pm

Quoting people entirely out of context really is incredibly clever: I must do it in future.
My original post in September 2007 said that this entire scheme - based on the price per acre paid - hinged on selling properties to high-income individuals at between E800k and E1 million. I think it was quite apparent (to everybody bar some smarmy hubristic after the fact know-it-all) that I felt this was not a good thing.
Clearly, when selling properties at this price ceased to be an option, the scheme became unviable in any form.
The point that was actually being discussed throughout the thread was whether Sean Dunne had some interest in creating a high-quality high-density development in Ballsbridge to improve Dublin and the merits of the scheme as proposed.
This is a website for discussion of architecture and planning, not for discussion of property speculation.
Nobody was discussing the price per acre but it is a natural given that the colossal money paid out has to be recovered somehow.
Please in future, keep your insufferable schadenfreude to yourself.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby StephenC » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:56 pm

edit
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby wearnicehats » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:14 pm

a whole year since your last post and that's all you can up with? I'd give it another year mick
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby PVC King » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:22 pm

I completely agree with Kefu on this the question is really what will this do for Dublin 4 in Architectural terms and not a critque on the wider real estate market. Clearly the scheme or whatever scheme gets built will not make money given the kamakhazee nature of the purchase price but the land is now controlled by a syndicate of banks who will want to get as much of their money back as is possible. I wish them well and hope that they can deliver in architectural terms something that improves the area and creates employment.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby wearnicehats » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:38 pm

saga continues - today's IT

Dunne told to redesign proposal for D4 hotel site
Developer Sean Dunne's plans for an office complex at the AIB Bankcentre in Ballsbridge were rejected earlier this month.In this section »

A FURTHER redesign, including a reduction in height and scale, of developer Seán Dunne’s plans for the former Jurys/Berkeley Court hotels in Ballsbridge, Dublin, has been sought by An Bord Pleanála.

The planning authority has written to Mr Dunne’s planning consultants, Tom Phillips and Associates, advising that it was concerned the plans could result in an overdevelopment of the site, which would have an adverse effect on the surrounding buildings and streets and on potential future residents of the development.

Several changes including reductions in height and footprint of the development are “necessary” to enable the board to make its decision, the letter said.

The board has set a deadline of April 6th for receipt of the revised plans.

The plans for 568 residential units, a 135-bedroom hotel, retail units, bars and restaurants including a 15-storey tower, were approved by Dublin City Council last August, but were appealed to An Bord Pleanála by several local residents and An Taisce.

The revised design is already significantly scaled back from Mr Dunne’s original plans for the seven-acre site which he bought for €450 million in 2005 in one of the biggest property deals in the history of the State.

He had initially applied in 2007 for a complex which included more than 27,000sq m of retail space, 42,000sq m of offices, an embassy block, and 536 apartments, as well as a 37-storey tower, in order to realise the value of the site.

Those plans were partially approved by the city council but were ultimately rejected by An Bord Pleanála in their entirety. In its ruling it said the planned development would constitute a “gross overdevelopment” of the site.

The latest application omits the large-scale office space and substantially reduces the amount of retail units. However, the board is seeking an overall reduction in scale of the development and an increase in open space. The “anchor” retail unit should be reduced in size from 3,329sq m to no more than 2,000sq m.

The 15-storey tower in block 10 should be “removed” and another 14-storey tower reduced to 11 storeys.

The board is seeking a reduction in the number of floors of apartments in order to maximise the penetration of light. It is also seeking the redesign of several blocks, including the hotel, to increase the amount of open space.

The board earlier this month rejected Mr Dunne’s separate plans for an office complex at the AIB Bankcentre in Ballsbridge. The board said the 41,500sq m office and shopping development was too big and would adversely affect the RDS and residents of neighbouring streets.

AIB sold part of the Bankcentre to Mr Dunne’s Mountbrook Group for €207 million in 2006, but remained as tenants
.
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby thebig C » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:05 pm

Quelle surprise....the primary concern of planners and objectors is height and floor count. Their obcession with this one aspect of planning, often to the exclusion of all other concerns, is really depressing.

C
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby SeamusOG » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:13 am

http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 89302.html

[QUOTE=Today's Indo]Asked for his views on the personal guarantees the banks had sought from their clients during the Celtic Tiger, Mr Dunne said: "They [personal guarantees] should be banned from all future lending. On a personal level, the next banker who asks me for a personal guarantee had better be sitting safely beyond arm's reach."[/QUOTE]

I'd imagine there isn't a lengthy queue to get personal guarantees from Sean.

However, he admits that he gave his word, yet he's not sticking around to fulfil it. Instead he's chickening off to the States. What's that about?
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Re: One Berkley court -132m Tower

Postby SeamusOG » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:34 pm

Yes, after sleeping on it, the message is clear.

Note to bankers lining up to take Sean's personal guarantees: It's lose/lose here. If you ask, you'll get a thump. And if you take one, you probably won't get your money back.
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