Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:57 pm

You all know the economic backdrop, can one person who doesn't live on the Metro North route please give a rationale for Metro North being built at the expense of the Interconnector.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby GrahamH » Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:29 am

I don't believe I'm reading this. Words fail me.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby urbanisto » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:36 pm

The Govt is obssessed by Metro North
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby tommyt » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:46 pm

PVC King wrote:You all know the economic backdrop, can one person who doesn't live on the Metro North route please give a rationale for Metro North being built at the expense of the Interconnector.


RPA did the superior PR job no doubt. There's no votes in the interconnector, it's not sexy, it doesn't go anywhere where there is blatantly obvious demand, it's difficult to explain to the general public the Connolly signalling bottleneck if you're an institutionalised CIE salaryman. The project justification should have been outsourced to major international PR pimpers ages ago . The fact the project is based in logic would dictate that it was always at the greater chance of being scuppered.

Out my way , FF will be playing the 'at least we got yiz T2 and MN' card and it might save them a seat or two in North Co. Dublin.:mad:
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby urbanisto » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:17 pm

Up the Wesht!...and North Co Dublin! Yeeehaaar!
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:44 pm

this is pure electioneering to keep those living on the MN route interested in FF. 2012 is an easy thing to punt anyway - well away yet.

There is absolutely no way this will happen
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby markpb » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:00 pm

PVC King wrote:You all know the economic backdrop, can one person who doesn't live on the Metro North route please give a rationale for Metro North being built at the expense of the Interconnector.


From my point of view, both are essential and they complement each other well. However, MN opens up rail to new parts of Dublin and mostly serves areas inside the M50. DU improves the service for people who already have a rail service and brings people closer to the business and financial districts. Crucially though, the benefits of DU are mostly for people on suburban lines outside Dublin. It makes commuting from Kildare better while doing very little for people living closer to the city centre.

If MN is built, lots of extra people will be able to take the train. If DU is built, few new people will take the Dart because it doesn't serve new destinations. However, if both are built, we end up with a quite decent network which benefits both.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby kefu » Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:02 pm

One project gives us solid foundations for a genuinely integrated public transport system, which can be improved upon if our economic fortunes ever change.
The other gives us a reasonably useful metro line, but does little to join up the utterly disjointed network of train and tramlines we already have.
One project is hard to explain to the public and will generate little in the way of votes.
The other is all glitz and is guaranteed to secure votes in North Dublin.
Which would you choose?
It is just another example of how the current political system cannot be trusted to make decisions in the national long-term interest and are instead obsessed with short-term electoral gain.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:35 pm

Listening to Dr James O'Reilly on Pat Kenny this morning and one of the panel described a scenario where Jackie Healy Rae crossed Merrion St to meet Chopper and asked for a school extension in Kilgavin in return for voting for the budget is being a non-runner. Why should a two maybe three constituency project be any different?

I have consistently called for an appropriate solution to the airport and Swords a Luas line after the Interconnector funding is alloted; who knows they might even complete at the same time.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby Cathal Dunne » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:39 am

PVC King wrote:Listening to Dr James O'Reilly on Pat Kenny this morning and one of the panel described a scenario where Jackie Healy Rae crossed Merrion St to meet Chopper and asked for a school extension in Kilgavin in return for voting for the budget is being a non-runner. Why should a two maybe three constituency project be any different?


Because unlike JHR pork-barrelling, this project passes a cost-benefit analysis and benefits 0.5 million people. It's sickening that the Tralee bypass is getting the go-ahead while projects like DART underground and Luas BXD are put on ice.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:38 am

It is exactly this type of cost benefit analysis that got the country into the mess it is in; Metro North had a projected passenger load of 35m pax in 2005 with Metro Waste; in 2010 without Metro Waste it was forecast to have 36.5m p.a.x.

The cake will be a lot smaller going forward for the next 5 - 10 years, Metro North needs to be ranked fairly, ahead of the Tuam Motorway but behind the interconnector, such a ranking assuming the Luas sections get built and when the economy makes it Dart-like in its loadings then the plans for the tunnelled section from DCU in can be dusted down.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:33 pm

I cannot understand why current Dart users are not marching on CIE/Iarnrod Eireann offices !!!
The CIE Railway Order plan is to reroute the Dart from between Clontarf and Connolly stations so the Dart from North will run underground via a "Pierce Underground Station" to Heuston while the Maynooth line runs to Bray.
To make matters worse the Underground Pierce station to Mainline Pierce is a good 15 minutes walk with a little escalator time.
All those loyal Dart users will now have at least 15 minutes added to their journey times and even more if the interchange between trains has any delay. What a disaster!! Dart will will lose a large portion of its loyal users.
Maybe CIE will reconsider, seeing they have 4 years at least to think about it ???
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby urbanisto » Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:52 pm

Pearse
Pearse
Pearse

"All Dart users will have 15 mins added to their journey". Really?
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:04 pm

StephenC wrote:Pearse
Pearse
Pearse

"All Dart users will have 15 mins added to their journey". Really?


Sorry Pearse it is ... and yes I amend "all" to "all current Northside Dart users passing Clontarf Station and all Southsiders passing Connolly Station", that is the vast majority of Northsiders and quite a large portion of "D U R T" users.

All kidding aside your remark hardly addresses the serious issue I raise. Don't tell me .... you work for CIE/IE?
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:30 pm

How long a distance is the interchange going to be at Pearse if it will take 15 mins?

You need to weigh up the time savings of trains not queing up into the loopline bottleneck which will more than give back the 2-3 mins the interchange will take. With the exception of two journey routing i.e. northside to Connolly or Tara the journey times will be much faster; for all you poshe nartciders getting to show off your white socks and black slip ons outside Korkey's from where they came will be much easier and faster....
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:58 am

"loop line bottle-neck" you are kidding!!!
For Southsiders going North past Clontarf it will be a nightmare ... they will need to walk for 15 mins to get to the Pearse Underground North platform and their DART will be held at Docklands Underground every time a mainline train is moving to or from Connolly.
For those Southsiders going to St Stephen's Green after a 15 minute walk they then have the problem of 20 to 30 minute intervals where no Darts run due to the intervals created by mainline trains to and from Connolly ... this will be so until the line North is four-tracked, and that is not part of the DU RO.
After DART users have digested the above we can then have a look at the Northsiders plight. Northsiders!!! Watch out if you are now going to Tara Street ... better to walk if DU as per RO is built.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:14 am

"loop line bottle-neck" you are kidding!!!


The existing position is three directions into 2 hence the bottleneck from an equation of 1.5:1; DU will be grade seperated and have 4 directions into two routes i.e. 1:1 which eliminates the bottleneck.

they will need to walk for 15 mins to get to the Pearse Underground North platform


What is the length of underground passage between platforms? Your timing suggests c 1 mile

their DART will be held at Docklands Underground every time a mainline train is moving to or from Connolly.


No; the lines northbound and southbound are grade seperated unlike the present time; there will be lead times on non-stopping services but regardless of what routings are chosen or in the current arrangements there will always be lead times to allow fast trains headways on health and safety grounds. That is unless a graduated stopping regime is introduced to outer suburban trains to stop at a number of the quieter DART stations and have DART make an equal number of stops at different stations between Killester and Portmarnock. Outside peak frequency on outer commuter will be in the order of 15-20 mins between services.

Watch out if you are now going to Tara Street


The one legitimate issue you raise; entirely solved by ensuring both Dart and Commuter trains stop at Clontarf Road allowing an interchange between Dart and Commuter trains bound for Barrow St.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:36 pm

Dear PVC King before any other comment on Pearce check the DU Railway order please.

Obviously you don't understand what lack of four-tracking on the Northern Line means.
From Howth Junction to Connolly DART trains have to clear the line before a mainline train can run.
Stoping at Clontarf makes the delay worse .... think it out please.
From now on let's take one point at a time.

Let's start with the gap in DART trains ... yes it should be 15 to 20 minutes but DE Facto it is not ... currently it is well over 20 mins (up to 30 mins) a lot of times. Those gaps will exist on Dart Underground as DART and Mainline to Connolly run on the same line.

Now traveling North .... DART trains again must clear the line to Howth Junction and onwards to Malahide before the mainline train runs.

DART and Mainline north are not separated never mind Grade Separated.

The Loop line delay (bottle-neck) is nothing by comparison .. hence I figure you must still be kidding me!!!
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:42 am

cagey wrote:Dear PVC King before any other comment on Pearce check the DU Railway order please.


Sigh!!! ... comment on PEARSE stations ... sorry about the typo.
If you require URLs just sing out.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:03 am

Obviously you don't understand what lack of four-tracking on the Northern Line means.


I fully understand what it means, however given the fiscal meltdown it could not be justified even if you could establish that the entire cabinet had houses on the landtake and that they would be CPO'd with the value of their primary personal investment capped at €1 each. Getting funding for DU will be hard enough without diverting the focus on the issue from an intergration tunnel to a wider project. I suggest you stop whinging about the existing service which is terrible but will only be resolved by adding more capacity to the loopline by eliminating the 1.5:1 equation.

You can 4 track the Northern line from Fairview to Larne but 1.5:1 is still the problem......
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:42 pm

PVC King wrote:
"loop line bottle-neck" you are kidding!!!


The existing position is three directions into 2 hence the bottleneck from an equation of 1.5:1; DU will be grade seperated and have 4 directions into two routes i.e. 1:1 which eliminates the bottleneck.



That's 2:1

You probably mean two routes onto two sets of rail lines which would be 1:1
My complaint here is not about the current position but the position that will pertain if DU goes ahead which will cost me approx. an extra 1 hour travel daily.

You ideas about the "loop line bottle-neck" is crazy. Let me explain.

The current DART problems are (1)gaps and (2)overcrowding.
(1) Gaps in the current DART service are mostly due to lack of four-tracking.
(2) Overcrowding happens due to the platforms filling up while we wait 20 minutes (gaps) for a mainline train to pass.
This was the case before the Maynooth line began to share the loop line and has not significantly changed as the Maynooth line quite often utilises the gaps in DART.

The loop line aleviation by DU will speed up trains by a miserable few minutes and this is almost neglible compared to the delays due to lack of four-tracking. Even if your ratio was 1:10 this would pertain. So please, no more about ratios.
The DU if it goes ahead it will not aleviate (1) or (2) above. Worse still it will add (as the RO stands) over an hour to my journey time (daily) due to the appaling location of Pearse Underground, and this will be the case for the majority of current DART users.

This is an Architecture site and I really would like to see a discussion on Pearse Underground design, by the Architects in here.
I think the design is appalling.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:17 am

(1) Gaps in the current DART service are mostly due to lack of four-tracking.


in 1984 DART ran a 5 min frequency at peak; gaps are due to extended northern and maynooth commuter services.

(2) Overcrowding happens due to the platforms filling up while we wait 20 minutes (gaps) for a mainline train to pass.
Overcrowding is due to theremoval of 5 minute frequency at peak times.

My complaint here is not about the current position but the position that will pertain if DU goes ahead which will cost me approx. an extra 1 hour travel daily.
Why are you going to sell your house and move to Trim so you can have a longer drive than you currently have?
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:33 pm

PVC King wrote:(gaps are due to extended northern and maynooth commuter services.

The Northern Mainline causes the big gaps .. no red herrings re maynooth and loop line please.

Overcrowding is due to theremoval of 5 minute frequency at peak times. .

The big gaps man ....... pleeeeeese!

Why are you going to sell your house and move to Trim so you can have a longer drive than you currently have?

As the Dart Undergroud is proposed, my morning DART will be rerouted to Heuston .... I will have to interchange to the Maynooth line, as will many other DART users. Those going south to Connolly or Tara St will be really hard done by.

The gaps will cause me a likely even bigger delay on my evening return and no silly question from you helps change that reality.

I was going to suggest a remedial change to the DU RO, but due to your silly question I will now do all I can to make sure the DU never happens, and I hope every current DART user does the same.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby PVC King » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:19 pm

As the Dart Undergroud is proposed, my morning DART will be rerouted to Heuston


What is your journey i.e. which suburb to which street?

The gaps will cause me a likely even bigger delay on my evening return and no silly question from you helps change that reality.


Are you really saying the gaps will be worse after DU is built?

A little history lesson on the 4 tracking of the Northern line; Northern Rock, Jerome Kerviel, Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros, AIG, Lenihan Bros, the treasury is empty its been charged to the IMF who might just if idiots like you shut up may just see DU for the must have project that it is.
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Re: Luas, Metro and DART - Drawings and Photomontages

Postby cagey » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:38 am

I am saying the "gaps" will mostly remain and added to that (for most current DART users... including me) will be a lengthy interchange time, both ways.
If you are quoting history, CIE would long ago have gone the way of those you mention but for the very large state subsidies they swallow every year, and I am thinking "Good Riddance" if the DART can be saved. So much for your history lesson. Instead of idiotic name calling, let's see you suggest a FIX. If you cannot then we know we know who should stay silent.
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