Gettin' Credit For It . . .

[teak]

Are old employers of an architect now self-employed generally meanish about allowing him/her
to include design work done while in their employ as part of his/her portfolio ?

What is the official position of the RIAI on this ?

Clearly, a person starting a new practice can't afford to be without a portfolio -- and it's
no use just having small nixer jobs as one's portfolio -- if they want to demonstrate their
ability and attract custom.

[Bren88]

It's really a private matter between you and previous employer.'
I've never had an issue, but I always left on good, if not great terms with previous employers.

[teak]

A snooty aspiring middle-class English-style comment.

[FunkyCoW]

A snooty aspiring middle-class English-style comment.

and this is a failed-ladder-climbing shinner-style reply

But back on track, if you had an input on projects then you should use that information to its fullest. An ex-employer might be reluctant to allow photographs to be used but you can always take your own or scour the web for some - just beware of copyrights

[what?]

no they shouldn't let you parade it as your work.

the credit for projects carried out under another office remain with that office, regardless if you were highly involved or not.

I have seen a few previous employees putting forward work in their previous offices as their own, I think its wrong.

[teak]

So it's shoulda, coulda, woulda -- but don't have to and might stop ya.

So how does one applicant who has significant design experience establish his/her
superior track record over another applicant whose work was largely hand-held by
his old boss ?:mad:
Just hard face it out at the interview, lamentably referring to his ex-firm's unfortunate
right of credit on all his glorious past work and trusting his interviewer to choose him
after creating suitably deferential good impressions ?

[wearnicehats]

I think there may be some confusion here

Of course you can include work from a previous employer in a job interview / pitch scenario. it's called a portfolio. Provided you actually worked on the job of course.

There is a difference, however, with putting such schemes up on your own, new guy in town, website. There would obviously be copyright restrictions here but I'm not going to pretend to know what they are. And Teak, your "middle class" comment was crass, even for you

[what?]

agreed, not a problem in an interview situation to say i worked on this and that. thats par for the course.

different situation if you stick work up on your new website implying your practice carried it out , which i have seen.

[teak]

So any arch starting out -- even with 10+ years of largely independent design work behind her/him --
has to begin practice with a portfolio that comprises only nixer jobs -- assuming
that the old employer's contract would have allowed them to do nixers.

The only people knowing his/her real capability are those clients of his ex-employer on whose
projects he did design work . . . . and the poaching of these would surely lead to a souring of the
good professional relations (à la Bren88, I guess) with the ex-employer . . .

All this seems to imply that any arch wanting to work for themselves would as well start
as soon as they can, as there is no client-acquiring advantage to accumulating design experience
that one cannot demonstrate to one's own clients.

By the way, third man tackling is about as crass as one can get.
Brenny can dish it out, so he should be able to take it.

[spoil_sport]

I don't see what the issue here is as long as appropriate credit is given? A simple "managed -Project- under the direction of Architect X, of XYZ architects" or something similar should suffice.

[GrahamH]

At last! And it only took ten posts.

[onq]

I don't see what the issue here is as long as appropriate credit is given? A simple "managed -Project- under the direction of Architect X, of XYZ architects" or something similar should suffice.

Yep, absolutely correct.

Give credit to your previous employer where its due and both practices may benefit over time. You may find smaller work will continue to flow from them to you.

Be very clear where you have done work independently of your previous employer, particularly if you were doing nixers not under their banner/title block.

They might not wish to be associated with the work and you should have been working to a clear policy if doing nixers while you were working with them.

ONQ.

[onq]

agreed, not a problem in an interview situation to say i worked on this and that. thats par for the course.

different situation if you stick work up on your new website implying your practice carried it out , which i have seen.

(nods)

I came across a website recently referring to an older architect in a firm I used work for claiming he designed an award winning scheme.

This wasn't quite as bad as the guy who took it to site trying to leave with the framed award under his arm.

I had never seen the first guy design anything more than a straightforward and simple industrial layout and he had no involvement in the award-winning work.

The other genius had done little or none of the design work in question - I know because I was the senior architect on the scheme and took it to planning stage with two other guys under the direction of the chief architect before I left that office.

ONQ.

[Bren88]

By the way, third man tackling is about as crass as one can get.
Brenny can dish it out, so he should be able to take it.

:confused:
I really don't have a clue what encouraged your swipe, and I don't know where I dished it out. But it just makes you look arrogant, and "snooty"

Like a lot of people who were let go over the last few months, it was down to the economic climate. Had I walked out, or gotten the sack for whatever reason it would probably be different, I actually laughed at the fact that you consider this snooty.

[onq]

Bois, bois, settle down.

You guys have been like a bra to me, the support I've received here over the past few months.

Don't let's bicker.

ONQ.

[teak]

Stop your dirty talk, ONQ !
Put your eye for form onto your work.

The original question was a general one, not a what-do-you-do type of question.
It essentially asked what the RIAI (or other official or customary) guidance was on
an architect getting credit for work done while in the employ of another firm.
And it's not my own case, I'm thinking of here of various architects who've done
a lot of good work within other firms and who now want to go on their own.

Bren88 responded in a way that gave no answer to what the official guidance was.
Its brevity, its concern with his own experience alone, its suggestion that it was
solely a matter between the old employer and the newly departed employee (which
is totally wrong, as considerations of professional consistency must surely apply also),
its self-correctness, its "that's-your-problem-and-certainly-not-mine attitude -- these things
irked me.

Think I'm wrong to read it like that, Bren ?
Fine.
Just you give an answer like that to the neighbours when they ask your help with
a situation you have successfully avoided to date . . .
Then see how they react to you afterwards . . .
Stepping out of helping people is one thing. It's everyone's prerogative.
Stepping out by suggesting no sensible person would get into that fix is another.

[Bren88]

Bren88 responded in a way that gave no answer to what the official guidance was.
Its brevity, its concern with his own experience alone, its suggestion that it was
solely a matter between the old employer and the newly departed employee (which
is totally wrong, as considerations of professional consistency must surely apply also),
its self-correctness, its "that's-your-problem-and-certainly-not-mine attitude -- these things
irked me.

As far as I was, and am, aware there is no official guidence. It would be a legal matter and RIAI have no real power here, although they could make it a part of their code of conduct.
I gave my opinion on the matter, then a comment on personal situation (which refered to use of copyright material in a portfolio btw), your suggestion that I had an attitude of "that's-your-problem-and-certainly-not-mine" is rather pathetic. The fact that you assume that point of view says more about you than me tbh.

For the record, I know people in similar situations and it certainly is an awkward place to be. I certainly don't think its a case of tough luck.

Legally, the design remains property of the original architects, I assumed we were all aware of that. So it would be a total copyright volilation if you were to use images of those projects on a company's website which you set up later (even if you were almost solely involved). However, I can't imagine there issue refering to the projects on a "About the Architect/experience" type page, eg:

From 1996 to 2009, [Name] worked for practices such as [companies], where he was involve in numerous projects such as X, Y and Z.

As long as it's the truth, and you are clear that it was a project while under different employment, then i can't imagine there being an issue.

Think I'm wrong to read it like that, Bren ?
Fine.

I know you are wrong to see it that way. As you've taken a bizarre view on my comments.

You asked a general question on old employers

Are old employers of an architect now self-employed generally meanish about allowing him/her
to include design work done while in their employ as part of his/her portfolio ?

I answered by mentioning my situation, and the fact that I considered myself lucky, which I do.
Your reading of this as "Stepping out by suggesting no sensible person would get into that fix is another" is laughable.

My intentions were clear, and now further clarified. I think your comments have made you look a whole lot worse.

[teak]

It's really a private matter between you and previous employer.'
I've never had an issue, but I always left on good, if not great terms with previous employers.

I answered by mentioning my situation, and the fact that I considered myself lucky, which I do.

[onq]

Now you've stopped the handbag wars bois I can confirm that in the matter of registration, where someone is reluctant to give credit or allow portfolio compilation or whatever, the Registrar has confirmed he will step in an make representations in this regard.

Registration is his core function and this willingness to step in may be related to that, but he is a reasonable man and I am sure if you made a case that he would do what he could to assist.

ONQ.