Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby wiseowl » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:48 pm

Are there any experts on the forum (sports stadium legislation etc.) who could advise on how the GAA's erection of barrrier fencing of 2.8m height could be considered exempt dev (apparently under Section 4.1.h). Surely there are huge Health and Saferty issues here after all that has happened in other stadiums over the years. Appreciate the problem the GAA have with people coming on to the pitch, but this seems a bit dangerous, and pretty ugly to boot. :confused:
wiseowl
Member
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:54 pm

Re: Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby Bren88 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:23 am

There are allowances under exempt development for erection of fences.
But not 2.8m (there is one exception thats not relevant here).
I'm not sure what Section 4.1.h refers to, nothing under the exempt development, maybe another Act, where did you get that number from?
Bren88
Member
 
Posts: 389
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:47 am

Re: Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby wiseowl » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:07 am

Bren88 wrote:There are allowances under exempt development for erection of fences.
But not 2.8m (there is one exception thats not relevant here).
I'm not sure what Section 4.1.h refers to, nothing under the exempt development, maybe another Act, where did you get that number from?


Hi, this was the offical response from DCC to enquires made:

".....this fence has been deemed exempt from planning under Section 4(1)(h) of the Planning and Development Act 2000 as the fence is within the stadium.

Section (4)(1)(h) of the Planning and Development Act 2000 states:

4(1)The following shall be exempted developments for the purpose of this Act

(h) development consisting of the carrying out of works for the maintenance, improvement or other alterations of any structure, being works which affect only the interior of the structure or which do not materially affect the external appearance of the structure so as to render the appearance inconsistent with the character of the structure or of the neighbouring structures."

I would of thought that's fine for the inside of a building, but seems odd for a public area such as this.
wiseowl
Member
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:54 pm

Re: Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby Bren88 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:41 am

Yeah, internal works are generally exempt, A stadium is tricky actually, as its not clear cut internal/external like most buildings.
Bren88
Member
 
Posts: 389
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:47 am

Re: Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby wiseowl » Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:49 pm

Bren88 wrote:Yeah, internal works are generally exempt, A stadium is tricky actually, as its not clear cut internal/external like most buildings.


Thanks Bren, can it be referred to An Bord Pleanala for consideration as to whether it should be exempt or not, seeing as it seems to be a bit of a grey area?? :confused:
wiseowl
Member
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:54 pm

Re: Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby Bren88 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:59 am

wiseowl wrote:Thanks Bren, can it be referred to An Bord Pleanala for consideration as to whether it should be exempt or not, seeing as it seems to be a bit of a grey area?? :confused:

sorry, only seen this now.
ABP deals with planning decisions, not unauthorised development. The correct body would be dublin city council.
Bare in mind, you are likely wasting your time seeing as the barriers were much needed to prevent pitch invasions and given the semi-state nature of the GAA and close links with DCC
Bren88
Member
 
Posts: 389
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:47 am

Re: Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby wiseowl » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:42 am

Bren88 wrote:sorry, only seen this now.
ABP deals with planning decisions, not unauthorised development. The correct body would be dublin city council.
Bare in mind, you are likely wasting your time seeing as the barriers were much needed to prevent pitch invasions and given the semi-state nature of the GAA and close links with DCC

Thanks Bren. Don't think there's much point going back to DCC. They were very embarrassed, evasive, non communicative when I made any enquiries earlier- case closed approach. Which is surprising as I have found them very helpful on other applications, information, appeals etc. I think a specific "legal" argument would be required to get them to take any notice. I only hope no one gets hurt inside that fence - you see a wall falling down in Bray Wanderers ground at the weekend is a little reminder of what can happen when a crowd get a bit excited. Understand the concerns on pitch invasions but soccer has handled it with legal cases and banning supporters who offend so there are other ways. Not aware of any deaths from GAA crowds getting on to pitches.
wiseowl
Member
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:54 pm

Re: Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby onq » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:32 pm

Fences and walls are specifically mentioned only in relation to residential buildings, not places of public resort or sports grounds AFAIK, and then only up to heights of 2.0M.

I don't know what you expect to gain, but you could approach it on it not being specifically exempted, therefore it requries permission.

You may come unstuck depending on the interpretation of the definition; -

"...development consisting of the carrying out of works for the maintenance, improvement or other alterations of any structure"

Despite your concerns, it could be seen as an improvement.


ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby wiseowl » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:37 am

onq wrote:Fences and walls are specifically mentioned only in relation to residential buildings, not places of public resort or sports grounds AFAIK, and then only up to heights of 2.0M.

I don't know what you expect to gain, but you could approach it on it not being specifically exempted, therefore it requries permission.

You may come unstuck depending on the interpretation of the definition; -

"...development consisting of the carrying out of works for the maintenance, improvement or other alterations of any structure"

Despite your concerns, it could be seen as an improvement.


ONQ.


Thanks ONG. My main concern is over safety behind a barrier like that, say if (and I know it is unlikely) a major fight or some panic broke out on Hill16. I would have just liked to have seen seen the legislation around fencing tested/clarifed through a more public process as it seems to be softening (e.g. The govt. did not introduce all seater legislation as was done for soccer grounds in England, or legislate that running onto the pitch is an offence. We seem to have short memories of disasters. If you recall the original scheme for Croke Park was for an all seater, they then got permisison for terracing, but with a modest fence in front. Then this thing goes up???
wiseowl
Member
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:54 pm

Re: Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby onq » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:25 pm

I would be most concerned about this fencing.
Whether it is exempted or not is not an issue, IMO, it is about Health and Safety of users.
I'm thinking back a few years now to that stadium disaster in Britain when fans at the front got crushed.

You could refer the matter to the Health and Safety Authority.

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby wiseowl » Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:04 am

onq wrote:I would be most concerned about this fencing.
Whether it is exempted or not is not an issue, IMO, it is about Health and Safety of users.
I'm thinking back a few years now to that stadium disaster in Britain when fans at the front got crushed.

You could refer the matter to the Health and Safety Authority.

ONQ.


The HSA was my first thought but they only (apparently) deal with saftey in the work place, which puts safety in sports grounds in a relatively unregulated position. All sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
wiseowl
Member
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:54 pm

Re: Exempt Development - Hill 16 fencing Croke Park

Postby onq » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:15 am

Don't let them fob you off with that old canard.

If there are marshals controlling the crowd, or security staff, or Gardaí, it becomes a workplace.

Back you go and kick some butt, my good chap!

:D

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland


Return to Ireland