ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:09 pm

given this,

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1016/1224281254585.html

and the takeover of NIE, along with debts incurred by defaulters and the massive cost overrun of the network upgrade I fear this baby is flowing down the drain with the bathwater
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby hutton » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:41 pm

wearnicehats wrote:given this,

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1016/1224281254585.html

and the takeover of NIE, along with debts incurred by defaulters and the massive cost overrun of the network upgrade I fear this baby is flowing down the drain with the bathwater


I don't fear nothing - this project was conceived in a totally different environment.

While Irish consumers pay the highest price per kilowatt to this greedy monopoly company, ESB's CEO Padraig is paid an outrageous 750K per annum; at the same time ESB are charging €86 disconnection fee to households who are unable to pay their bills in these straightened times - in my opinion this is simply scum corporate standards :mad:

There are vast amounts of empty idle office space nearby to ESB HQ if space is needed - not least of all the soon-to-be-empty Bank of Ireland HQ which is adjacent on Baggot St.

If in such circumstances ESB were to proceed with what is a vanity project, they would become the focal point for public rage at out-of-control unaccountable state owned companies - and I for one would be leading the charge


http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/aug/01/esb-bosss-salary-surged-to-750k-in-2009-despite-cu/
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby Morlan » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:51 pm

tomredwest wrote:if faux georgians are going in here hopefully they won't be as ugly as the ones on the north quays near four courts.


There´s a good Georgian reproduction on Parnell Square somewhere. I think Graham posted pics of it ages ago. Can´t find it.

Do the right thing, ESB.. give us back our Georgians. You can retain a bit of your horrendous HQ facade and turn it into a museum. :rolleyes:
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby hutton » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:08 pm

Morlan wrote:Do the right thing, ESB.. give us back our Georgians


Yeah but that's not their plan from what I am hearing... if they proceed, expect the application to be 'contemporary' and 'iconic' - i.e. again out of character, but this time much greedier in terms of blowing the parapet height skywards... and if they do file such an application, I'll have all the more fun planting the proverbial bombs in the system - 'terrorism through paperwork' as it were :)
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby Morlan » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:59 pm

12/09/2010

ESB wrote:The ESB has told the council "that it is essential that the plan include a height range of up to eight storeys for commercial use if the final adopted policies in support of major employment and economic growth in the city centre are to be realised".


They cannot be serious.:confused:
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby hutton » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:43 pm

Morlan wrote:12/09/2010

The ESB has told the council "that it is essential that the plan include a height range of up to eight storeys for commercial use if the final adopted policies in support of major employment and economic growth in the city centre are to be realised".

They cannot be serious.:confused:


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

*hutton begins to prepare a few mortars*

Mark my words - if ESB proceed with such a vanity project, which no matter what way you want to put it, effectively takes cash away from the exchequer, citizens will take to the streets and ESB CEO Padraig McManus will be as popular as Marie Antoinette in 1789.

How out of fucking touch can one state company get? :rolleyes:
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby PVC King » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:16 am

It is far from out of touch that the ESB management are; such a wave of consolodation in energy companies has not been seen internationally for a long time. The ultimate poisin pill defence to a trade sale or flotation to institutional investors would be a commercial property development project in Ireland of this scale.


Pure genius in frustrating the implementation of the McCarthy review should it be decided to cash out of a very valuable utility asset; however with BoI gone to Burlington Road they could pick up the STW scheme on Baggot St to provide all the new floor space they require and convert their existing premises into a hotel which has services capacity that would be impossible to install in a comparable location today.
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby Frank Taylor » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:50 am

Do they want to rebuild a Georgian facade and add 8 stories? As a setback?
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby reddy » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:44 am

Here're some images from the 3XN proposal. There're a few more diagrams and images on their website. Presume this means they didn't make it to the later stages of the competition if its in the public realm.

http://www.3xn.dk/

Image

Image

Image
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby Smithfield Resi » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:35 am

Mark my words - if ESB proceed with such a vanity project, which no matter what way you want to put it, effectively takes cash away from the exchequer, citizens will take to the streets and ESB CEO Padraig McManus will be as popular as Marie Antoinette in 1789.


I only wish Irish citizens were as familiar with this 'taking to the streets' concept as the French you reference. As a believer (and practitioner) of taking to the streets I only wish there were more joining me. Ah well, at least Jim Kennedy is answering questions.
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby missarchi » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:50 am

Would you say those renders are by the architect or client?
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby Andrew Duffy » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:33 am

Frank Taylor wrote:Do they want to rebuild a Georgian facade and add 8 stories? As a setback?


It's already 7 stories to the rear, close to the 9 story Bank of Ireland HQ.
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby mud hut! » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:53 am

Jesus thats Brutal!
Put back the beautiful Georgians.
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby Rory W » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:51 pm

Jesus Parnell street comes to Fitzwillam St
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby DOC » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:08 pm

Sweet baby jesus! I'm sure the IGS would love that one!

Obviously ESB breif for accomodation is probably/possibly more that the site can handle given it's context.
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby wearnicehats » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:07 pm

DOC wrote:Sweet baby jesus! I'm sure the IGS would love that one!

Obviously ESB breif for accomodation is probably/possibly more that the site can handle given it's context.


oh dear. here we go again

Let's all rubbish the current ESB building while clamouring for some kind of carbon copy or limp pastiche of the past. We need to get over ourselves and accept that the georgians are gone. Georgian architecture is gone. Any attempt to fill the gap using sepia tinted spectacles will result in an infil - and a poor one at that. Just take a look at anything that Robert Adam has done - it's a short step to Quinlan Terry

The IGS should be reponsible for the conservation and protection of existing buildings. They should in fact be totally against any attempt to copy the past and I am surprised that they have not objected to DCC's misguided amendment to the development plan

The existing bank of ireland sets up a height profile to the rear of the site perfectly conducive to 8 storeys being adjacent to it, falling to 4 on Fitwilliam

There is a real opportunity here and this kind of lazy backward looking thinking is only going to serve the status quo. And, while we're at it, maybe we shouldn't be judging the potential end product by making throwaway comments on schemes that failed to make the shortlist
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby PVC King » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:25 pm

The ESB are a utility provider and electrical infrastructure contractor; what are they doing acting as a property company at a time when office vacancy rates are in excess of 20% in Dublin?

I agree that a pastiche infill would be wrong; but would also say this proposal should be refused on the following grounds

1. Design style, it is too brash for its setting and would detract from the unity of the Fitz/Merrion mile

2. The set backs would not protect views from Merrion Square

3. There is no need for office space in Dublin due to chronic over-supply

4. The proposal is contrary to government policy on raising revenue from semi state disposals - this would very much damage the appeal and add a lot of risk to a dividend led business model
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby wearnicehats » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:47 pm

PVC King wrote:The ESB are a utility provider and electrical infrastructure contractor; what are they doing acting as a property company at a time when office vacancy rates are in excess of 20% in Dublin?

I agree that a pastiche infill would be wrong; but would also say this proposal should be refused on the following grounds

1. Design style, it is too brash for its setting and would detract from the unity of the Fitz/Merrion mile

2. The set backs would not protect views from Merrion Square

3. There is no need for office space in Dublin due to chronic over-supply

4. The proposal is contrary to government policy on raising revenue from semi state disposals - this would very much damage the appeal and add a lot of risk to a dividend led business model


you're judging design on a scheme that failed to make the shortlist.
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby PVC King » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:31 am

No doubt the design posted would have reflected the brief; which if the poisin pill defence to preventing the instalation of accountability in the ownership structure is the intention will attract entries that all the points below would be relevant on.

Whatever way you look at this the STW Bank of Ireland sceme is vacant or soon to be vacant and can provide exactly what the ESB require in terms of floor space to deliver a first class energy player; if it were sold or leased to the ESB it would solve two problems. No design in line with an inappropriate brief would be acceptable directly fronting the Fitz/Merrion mile.
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby jimg » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:41 pm

wearnicehats wrote:oh dear. here we go again

Let's all rubbish the current ESB building while clamouring for some kind of carbon copy or limp pastiche of the past. We need to get over ourselves and accept that the georgians are gone. Georgian architecture is gone. Any attempt to fill the gap using sepia tinted spectacles will result in an infil - and a poor one at that. Just take a look at anything that Robert Adam has done - it's a short step to Quinlan Terry

The IGS should be reponsible for the conservation and protection of existing buildings. They should in fact be totally against any attempt to copy the past and I am surprised that they have not objected to DCC's misguided amendment to the development plan
...
There is a real opportunity here and this kind of lazy backward looking thinking is only going to serve the status quo. ...

Here we go again indeed. The usual narrow provincial orthodoxy regarding reconstruction. I know of nowhere outside of the UK and Ireland where the idea of reconstruction is viewed by professional architects and planners with the sort of disgust and contempt normally reserved for pedophiles, bankers and The X-factor. All over the rest of the planet reconstruction is considered a perfectly valid option in situations like this. But what would continental Europeans, for example, know about maintaining vibrant cities? (Now where is that sarcastic/rolling eyes smiley I had my hand on...)

In this particular context, it's an option which deserves very serious consideration in my opinion, not sneering dismissal.
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby gunter » Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:03 pm

Very good point there jimg,

. . . . . but the fly in the ointment here is that the ESB building is probably just about the best 1960s corporate urban in-fill building we have [ OK that may not be saying much ] so destroying it is itself a very questionable act, irrespective of what you replace it with.
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:37 pm

jimg wrote:Here we go again indeed. The usual narrow provincial orthodoxy regarding reconstruction. I know of nowhere outside of the UK and Ireland where the idea of reconstruction is viewed by professional architects and planners with the sort of disgust and contempt normally reserved for pedophiles, bankers and The X-factor. All over the rest of the planet reconstruction is considered a perfectly valid option in situations like this. But what would continental Europeans, for example, know about maintaining vibrant cities? (Now where is that sarcastic/rolling eyes smiley I had my hand on...)

In this particular context, it's an option which deserves very serious consideration in my opinion, not sneering dismissal.


it might help if you could show examples of successful reincarnations of a similar scale "on the mainland" including original scheme, misguided infil and glorious replacement so that us heathens can be enlightened
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby aj » Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:53 pm

not sure the "limp pastiche of the past" would be allowed in such a sensitive setting

if it good pastiche can be done in parnell square why not Fitzwilliam street?
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby missarchi » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:01 pm

The site can handle both old and new...
One or 2 of the old houses should be newish
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Re: ESB Headquarters Fitzwilliam Street

Postby jdivision » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:26 am

The ESB may not have a choice in the matter
http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/sep/12/neil-callanan-council-backs-faux-georgian-esb-buil/?q=ESB Neil Callanan

Council backs faux-Georgian ESB building
The ESB has been working for more than 18 months on a design competition for the redevelopment of its headquarters at Fitzwilliam Square in Dublin. However the city council may be making the decision for the company.
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