National Children's Hospital design

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby goneill » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:47 pm

I've never understood the opposotion to the Mater site in terms of accessibility. I'd guess about one third of the people in a children's hospital would be the children and their parents, about half would be staff, and the rest visiting suppliers/contractors. from the point of view of the staff, the contractrs and suppliers/contractors the centre is the obvious place for it, The same is trues for half the patients and their parents - those who live in Dublin. For the rest of the country the journey times from the M50 intersections are about equal to Eccles Street or Crumlin. I did a quick study on Google maps which I know is not infallible but at least would be equally inaccuarte in respect of both locations. I might have made a mistake but the results were [excuse the messy tabulation]:

Mater Crumlin
Km Mins Km Mins
Loughlinstown 18.9 28 24.8 17
Tallaght 10.6 18 8.9 9
Newlands X 10.2 18 4.6 6
Liffey Valley 10.6 14 8.9 10
Blanchardstown 7.0 11 12.5 12
Finglas 6.6 9 10.7 18
Santry 6.6 9 12.3 22
(Northern Cross) 9.6 16 15.0 29
goneill
Member
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:36 pm

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby goneill » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:57 pm

I didn't think the tabs would just disappear completely. Here another go.


Louglinstown: Mater18.9 km 28 min Crumlin 24.8km 17min
Tallaght: Mater 10.6 18 Crumlin 8.9 9
Newlands Cross: Mater 10.2 18 Crumlin 4.6 6
Liffey Valley: Mater 10.6 14 Crumlin 8.9 10
Blanchardstown: Mater 7.0 11 Crumlin 12.5 12
Finglas: Mater 6.6 9 Crumlin 10.7 18
Santry:Mater 6.6 9 Crumlin 12.3 22
(Northern Cross): Mater 9.6 16 Crumlin 15.0 29
goneill
Member
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:36 pm

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby PVC King » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:03 pm

Frank Taylor wrote: It's meant to be located next to a major adult teaching hospital. Temple Street hospital (for anyone who hasn't witnessed it) is a ramshackle Dickensian nightmare. A collection of decaying, half-built structures tied together with twine. It makes Holles Street look like the Starship Enterprise and it's been that way for decades.


Holles St is a fine hospital; yes it is an period building but it has been adapted to meet the needs of each era.


Frank Taylor wrote:The major consideration in reorganising hospital facilities ought to be whether the patients will have better survival rates as a result. What we usually hear about is the inconvenience to the hospital staff who will have a longer commute or will lose a free parking space. The location is not inaccessible to cars being sited on the junction of the NCR and Dorset Street. Taxis and Ambulances will have no problem reaching it.


Nor would they have an issue with a docklands site with unincumbered access and egress designed specifically to purpose.


Frank Taylor wrote:Obesity and long term public health are improved by locating major public facilities in places accessible to the best public transport. The Metro North Mater station is to be built at this site by direct public contract rather than as part of the PPP. New A&E outpatient facilities for children at other locations are to be designated as part of the plan, so not every sick kid will be sent to the Mater for triage.


Please do not hold up a project that lacks planning consent or more relevant funding as justification.


Frank Taylor wrote:As regards the design, I like the attempt to balance the existing terrace on the North side of Eccles Street with a matching terrace to fill the gap up to the private hospital. I see no reason the roof gardens can't be built and would be of obvious benefit to the patients. The shoe shaped building on top is sufficiently set back to avoid any major looming over the neighbouring streets.


I doubt I am alone in querying the fit of a sixteen story slab block with a Georgian style terrace. UNESCO designation for World Heritage site with a slab like this 400-600m from Mounjoy Sq? Build it in the docklands and have every major pharmaceutical company going leverage it to develop new pioneering treatments in Peadiatrics; global cluster of excellence where the space exists to locate the players.
PVC King
 

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby shadow » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:14 pm

goneill wrote:I didn't think the tabs would just disappear completely. Here another go.


Louglinstown: Mater18.9 km 28 min Crumlin 24.8km 17min
Tallaght: Mater 10.6 18 Crumlin 8.9 9
Newlands Cross: Mater 10.2 18 Crumlin 4.6 6
Liffey Valley: Mater 10.6 14 Crumlin 8.9 10
Blanchardstown: Mater 7.0 11 Crumlin 12.5 12
Finglas: Mater 6.6 9 Crumlin 10.7 18
Santry:Mater 6.6 9 Crumlin 12.3 22
(Northern Cross): Mater 9.6 16 Crumlin 15.0 29


How is this relevant. The important issue is not wheter the new facility is close to areas around Dublin, this is supposed to serve the whole country from Kerry to Donegal, the Arann Islands to Lambay Island. As a result it is really massive, so massive that it dwarfs the local and larger aspect of the city. It is so dense that it will necessarily pull all available investment into the black hole that it is. In other words the more money spent on this the more that will have to be spent on this especially if it goes wrong no one will want to stop it preferring to prop it up rather than admit its failings. I would look at the belated change of heart by Maurice Neligan amongst others. The key issue is the "little problems", the necessary health and welfare of the children. A couple of wind swept (yes they are above the street buffer zone of the city) roof gardens will not compensate for what should be recuperating gardens, parks and courts. The "sandal" design of the cake topping will also contribute to wind induced laminar flow increasing disruption at roof level. If we are to properly weight up all the factors necessary for a centre of excellence then maybe a different site would be better. More importantly would it be possible to locate 4 such national children's hospitals around the country for the same cost. Surely there most have been some basic feasability study completed to justify this which would have estbalished this elvel of impact long before the fancy graphics...... PR wins in this case I fear.
shadow
Member
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 1:00 am

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby corkblow-in » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:34 pm

While I agree with gunter and the need to promote urbanism – this is not a Dublin childrens hospital, but a national one – 50% of those using it will not be from the GDA. Families travelling from Waterford, Cork, Killarney, Limerick, Galway, Sligo have already travelled for several hours – are we then going to subject them to another ordeal travelling through Dublin city traffic? (as hats said sick children will not be brought on the train to Heuston, change onto the Luas and then the metro). Aside from that issue, the building just does not fit on its site – hence the height required in a Georgian area. We can be too sensitive on the issue of height in this country, but this is no elegant tower proposed here. The Docklands would be better if it must be in the city.

However surely a greenfield site is the obvious solution – somewhere like Newlands cross which has luas (potential of more efficient commuting pattern with staff etc from the city), a proposed metro west (PVC has a coronary!) which links to the Kildare and Navan rail lines (without a tunnel), and is pretty much the centre of the national motorway network. Do the Newlands Cross flyover at the same time and a lot of the Red Cow freeflow problems disappear.
corkblow-in
Member
 
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby gunter » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:31 pm

corkblow-in wrote: – this is not a Dublin childrens hospital, but a national one – 50% of those using it will not be from the GDA.


That's only partially true though isn't it? I mean this hospital replaces three existing Dublin childrens hospitals as well as centralizing the country's top pediatric expertise on one site. If yoy've got a sick child in Dublin this is where you'll go, but if you've got a sick child in Sligo, you'll only be making this trip if he needs very specialist care . . . . as far as I understand it anyway, I don't think this is intended to be some kind of centralized kids vomittorium

corkblow-in wrote:However surely a greenfield site is the obvious solution – somewhere like Newlands cross . . . .


This is the - ''I believe in urbanism, but . . .'' - argument.

Green fields are for sheep and football, hospitals belong in cities.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1925
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby GrahamH » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:57 pm

I remain thoroughly on the fence on this one. At the end of the day, none of us know the ins and outs of the demands of a children's hospital - that's why consultants were paid megabucks to do that thinking for us and come up with an appropriate site. But I do despise the mind-numbingly suburban hand-wringing about car parking and access to the Mater area that's been dominating media discourse, and where an entirely car dependant site - both for staff and patients - is being encouraged at all costs hanging off the State's most congested motorway. What an obscene prospect. Realistically, how many children need to be delivered to hospital in a car? Actually no - I'm not having this debate - we're ill-informed, so let's not go down the Liveline route.

Rather, it is the chosen site and its planning context that matters here. As is, the Mater has an extremely demanding impact on this area of the city. Coupled with a substantial expansion of that hospital, plus the construction of one of the largest children's hospitals in Europe on the same site, I have grave concerns about the capacity of this already under strain part of the north inner city, with its network of Georgian streets and what are supposed to be residential areas, to cope with the resulting pressures. The hospital is quite clearly shoe-horned into the site, no question, and if this was a speculative office development there would very rightly be uproar about it. I don't think anyone could genuinely claim with a straight face that this is the ideal site for the National Children's Hospital, nor that the design takes cognisance of its context above street level. The lower levels certainly have merit. We have yet to see the streetscape renders of the impact of this spaceship and I'm betting it's not gonna be pretty.

I'm all for an urban site, just not this one. McKinsey did state that co-location with a major teaching hospital is not strictly necessary if other factors are brought into play.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4591
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby corkblow-in » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:54 am

I realise the contradiction of saying I believe in Urbanism but stick the hospital in Newlands Cross – there are times when the exceptions should be made - & I believe this is one. The site I’m thinking of was proposed by the IRFU as a replacement for Landsdowne Road - a case where a greenfleld site was not appropriate IMO.

This is (or should be) a large floorplate building being proposed for a site that can only accommodate it by rising to 16 floors. I don’t know if vertical circulation is more or less efficient for a hospital – as Graham said none of us know exactly what the intricacies are. But the building just doesn’t sit comfortably. I would agree that hospitals belong in urban areas – maybe in the Docklands with other coarse grain development – or maybe Tallaght - I don't know.

The car dependency issue is a concern, and I'm sure the accessibility of the hospitals being amalgamated was considered, but taking a step back the issue is the same whether the hospital is in the Mater or any other site. At this time the preferred mode of transport is the car and we need to wean ourselves off it - restricting car access to a hospital is not where I'd start though!

The Mater is well served by Dublin Bus, and potentially a metro – maybe. Newlands has the Luas, bus routes serving Belgard, Tallaght and Clondalkin; a design for a metro linking to the mainline rail lines (ok – we may not see it this century!) and potential for a park and ride at kingswood / citywest using the red line extension. Restricted parking (particularly for staff) can be imposed as easily in Newlands as the Mater.

Maybe it’s the fact that theres a distinct whiff of political interference by a certain newspaper columnist who did a nixer as Taoiseach a while ago that has me questioning the site so much – because I certainly hope I never have a cause to visit the institution wherever it’s constructed.
corkblow-in
Member
 
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby PVC King » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:17 am

corkblow-in wrote:However surely a greenfield site is the obvious solution – somewhere like Newlands cross which has luas (potential of more efficient commuting pattern with staff etc from the city), a proposed metro west (PVC has a coronary!) which links to the Kildare and Navan rail lines (without a tunnel), and is pretty much the centre of the national motorway network. Do the Newlands Cross flyover at the same time and a lot of the Red Cow freeflow problems disappear.


PVC is in agreement in principal with Newlands Cross as the space exists for pharma companies to co-locate; suprisingly I also agree with a version of Metro West but built as spurs off Dart to Tallaght and gradually extended north as add ons that link the Interconnector lines with Blanchardstown/Intel to the Airport. Alternatively just build it in the Docklands where all modes of transport will exist i.e. Rail, Lightrail and motorway connection.

I agree with Shadow and Gunter that there are issues in terms of the structure of the health service but do not understand such a complex subject; however I do believe that a national centre of excellence is disireable given the importance of Pharma to the economy and its ability to contribute to any hospital of a sufficient scale.

My thinking is similar to Graham's that a major factor is existing built heritage; I have long been disheartened by the way that north georgian Dublin was very much the poor relation of its southside cousin; this would not have been proposed in Dublin 2 as a credible proposal. Have we completely given up on North Georgian Dublin?
PVC King
 

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby adrian5987 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:42 am

the site is not that hard to get to, if you are coming from the country, just go around the m50 until the m3 junction and its a straight road all the way to mountjoy where you swing right or its easy enough to get to dorset street from the n1 or 2. all the calls for the docks seem to forget the port tunnell toll or actually getting to the docks lets face it, anything inside the north circular in the most congested part of the city and after 200+km thats all you need.
plus metro north is supposed to stop at the mater and it is probably as likely to be built as this or DIT grangegorman
adrian5987
Member
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:28 pm

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby missarchi » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:09 am

I like the location but the architecture could be "better" it's very standard fare
Massing of hospitals like this is quite common any better or different renders?
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby EIA340600 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:14 pm

I appreciate that there's a toll on the m1 tunnel for parents, but there isn't for ambulances.It's a quick access route to the whole north-eastern coast.People coming from the country won't be emergency cases.They'll either be long term treatment(who can park at the red cow/pace/sandyford and hop on a train or they'll be ambulance transfer, which won't have to pay a toll.As for A&E - If it wasn't urgent enough to warrant paying the tunnel toll, its not so urgent that it cant sit in s few minutes traffic.
EIA340600
Member
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:34 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby onq » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:48 pm

archipig wrote:Er, have they considered how they are going to get a patient on a stretcher from the helipad into the actual building?


Gravity feed chute.

Its not the drop, its the sudden sharp stop at the end...

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby onq » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:53 pm

gunter wrote:This is the - ''I believe in urbanism, but . . .'' - argument.

Green fields are for sheep and football, hospitals belong in cities.


Unless of course its a TB Sanatorium in which case the top of a Swiss mountain might be preferable.

Nothing like testing the immune systems of children in a centre city environment.

I remember when I started attending my studies in Bolton Street way before the introduction of the smokeless coal in Dublin.

I could "see" the greyness in the air we were breathing.

Is an urban environment good for sick kids?

Or is that too obvious a question?

ONQ.
User avatar
onq
Old Master
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby PVC King » Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:41 pm

adrian5987 wrote: all the calls for the docks seem to forget the port tunnell toll or actually getting to the docks lets face it, anything inside the north circular in the most congested part of the city and after 200+km thats all you need.


The last thing a sick parent is going worry about is a few euro for a toll; isn't the M3 you referred to above already tolled? Expect tolls on the other major aerterial routes within a couple of years; sadly the party is over and the hangover needs to be paid for.

The docklands has a motorway, light rail, commuter rail and soon to be interconnector; from an access point of view it doesn't get any better.

Wrong site on so many levels and the design is hardly iconic either; it looks like East Wall gate after a spin in the microwave
PVC King
 

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby GTSC » Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:12 pm

To be honest, I don't see the point in shutting down 3 hospitals for one. Expand Temple Street and that will be that.
GTSC
Member
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:36 pm

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby EIA340600 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:14 pm

GTSC wrote:To be honest, I don't see the point in shutting down 3 hospitals for one. Expand Temple Street and that will be that.


Eh, the amalgamation will save childrens' lives by offering all the expertise in the country under one roof.Every specialist in the nation will be within minutes of the sick child.Less administration staff are required, no needless transportation, higher efficiency and easy access are all good reasons for having 1 big one instead of three small ones.
Temple Street isn't fit for the purpose, it was never meant to be a hospital.It was a house, that was then converted to offer an 8 bed hospital.It has since been expanded again and again to become the illegible, inefficient, dull, mess that it is.That's not mentioning the lack of room for expansion.
EIA340600
Member
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:34 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby PVC King » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:14 pm

Children's Hospital will 'proceed as planned'
Updated: 15:54, Saturday, 16 October 2010

Both the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health have said that the new National Childrens' Hospital in Dublin will proceed as planned.


National Children's Hospital - Chairman of development board resigned
Brian Cowen - Project is not in doubt Both the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health have said that the new National Childrens' Hospital in Dublin will proceed as planned.

Their comments come in the wake of the resignation of the chairman of the hospital's development board last week.

Philip Lynch cited differences with Health Minister Harney on what he called a number of significant and fundamental issues.

Speaking on RTÉ Radio, Ms Harney said that it is 'a major priority' of hers to build the National Children's Hospital, and that she is passionately committed to it.

The Minister told Marian Finuance that she lost confidence in Mr Lynch's capacity to chair the hospital's development board.

Ms Harney said it was not in the remit of the former chairman to revisit the Government's decision on the location.

She said that the mandate of the development board was 'to build a hospital at that site (at the Mater).'

Ms Harney paid tribute to the fantastic work Mr Lynch did, but she insisted that he had gone outside his mandate by 'going out reviewing green field sites' which 'clearly wasn't appropriate,' she said, 'because the decision was made four years ago.'

She said that there was 'a lot of innuendo about how the site was chosen,' and that 'there was never going to be unanimity about the site.'

Taoiseach Brian Cowen today echoed Ms Harney's assertion that the project is not in doubt, and will proceed as planned.

It is to be developed on a site adjacent to the Mater Hospital in Dublin at an expected cost of €650m. Mr Lynch has expressed concerns over a funding gap, what he termed the absence of governance proposals, and challenges for the Mater site.

There have been varying reactions from lobby groups to his departure.

The New Children's Hospital Alliance wants the project to be put on hold immediately, while the New Crumlin Hospital Group warned against delays amid the current controversy.

The Tallaght Hospital Action Group has said it is glad that levels of services for children to be located at the Urgent and Ambulatory Care Centres at Tallaght Hospital is now being raised.


A government in denial; whats new?
PVC King
 

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby adrian5987 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:04 pm

"The last thing a sick parent is going worry about is a few euro for a toll; isn't the M3 you referred to above already tolled?"
when they are visiting their long time ill child 10e each time is really going to start adding up, the m3 is two 1.30e tolls,1/4 or 1/8 the price.
anyway, im only trying to say if its in the city its probably in the best place, with the facilities already there but i think onq's point that it is for kids and should they really be listening to the constant sirens in the area from ambulances going to the mater or the fire brigade leaving the phibsboro station or a guard pulling out from mountjoy across the road? im sure a site nearISH the m50 would be best.
adrian5987
Member
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:28 pm

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby EIA340600 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:57 pm

adrian5987 wrote:that it is for kids and should they really be listening to the constant sirens


There in a hospital.They'll hear sirens.I dont' think there's much that can be done about that, unfortunately.If there is soundproofing to be done, it will stop the sounds of the other services aswell.
EIA340600
Member
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:34 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby EIA340600 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:01 pm

adrian5987 wrote:it is for kids and should they really be listening to the constant sirens


There in a hospital.They'll hear sirens.I dont' think there's much that can be done about that, unfortunately.If there is soundproofing to be done, it will stop the sounds of the other services aswell.
EIA340600
Member
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:34 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby adrian5987 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:47 pm

ambulences usually only have their sirens on when they need someone to get out of their way, ie at a junction (especially doyles corner-n2/n3), if its not in the city centre, less traffic, less sirens! i live a 2-3hundred meters from an ambulence station in donegal and never hear them. although i do admit it cant be completely eliminated, its the little things that will make a difference when your in hospital for weeks or months
adrian5987
Member
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:28 pm

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby johnglas » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:19 pm

Less traffic, fewer sirens. Has grammar and syntax been a victim of the recession as well?
johnglas
Senior Member
 
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:43 am
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby PVC King » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:16 pm

Nope he just wants the hospital at the route leading to the closest junction to motorway network for him.

If Adrian is that DIMBY 150-200 miles away what is he like in a realistic Dimby-sphere?
PVC King
 

Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby adrian5987 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:51 pm

sorry about the grammer its not great to begin with but that was bad.
pvc, your distance is out by about 100times!!!
i favoured the mater as a CITY CENTRE location only because if the government is going to keep pressing these centres of excellence in health well suddenly one street holds pretty much a facility for everything. i was favouring the mater over the docks, if you want to pick a major hospital somewhere else fine but no one was proposing that!
overall i DONT want it in the city, it should be somewhere easily accessable for all (including the 75% of the population outside dublin), it should really be close to the m50 somewhere, with a rail link. (and incase you havnt noticed there is no rail in donegal so i am not looking for the handiest route for me).
adrian5987
Member
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:28 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland