National Children's Hospital design

National Children's Hospital design

Postby darkman » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:26 pm

Image


More detailed designs on this have been released. It will be 16fls high apparently. Construction starting end of next year.
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby StephenC » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:18 pm

Planning will be a nightmare
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby Service charge » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:14 pm

Roof gardens are a clearly a sham. They will end up being patio spaces and smoking areas for staff.

Obviously they are trying to justify the city centre location and lack of open space for patients and families.
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby shadow » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:32 pm

That is horrendous
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby shadow » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:32 pm

Actually worse than horrendous, what planet did this come from......
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby rofbp » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:56 pm

don't worry about how bad it looks
it''ll never be built in that form or in that location
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby thebig C » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:41 am

OMG, having heard various heights mentioned over the past few years ranging from 9-20 stories, I was interested to see what the finished product would look like.....

Honestly, I had no idea it would be this bulky. It almost looks like a groundscraper, completely belieing the fact that if built it would be Dublins tallest. What that says to me is at even at that considerable height they have tried to limit its impact on the skyline...possibly for planning reasons?! Looking at the renders its blatantly obvious that they had to fiil every square inch of the limited site to try and minimise scale. And the simple fact that the needed that scale just serves to highlight the obvious detractions regarding the site. Assuming that the render supplied is show the building in its absolute best light, even I am shocked at just how squashed it is!

In terms of design, its not too bad (If it was an office headquarters on a greenfield or suitably corporate site not surrounded by historical Georgian and Victorian buildings!).

BTW, I have tried only addressing the architectural aspect. As for the other "issues" all I can say is that its glaringly obvious that if this wasn't one B.Aherns constituency, then none of us would be discussing this matter. De javu, another legacy of that little spiv that is causing problems!
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby Global Citizen » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:02 am

It looks like something that was previously refused planning permission in downtown Las Vegas.

Aside from the fact that it is in the wrong location (and we all know why that is), surely a building catering for ill children should reflect the tastes of those under the age of 18. It may sound silly, but were any of the patients in Crumlin or Temple St asked their opinion on what a childrens hospital should look like?

Surely a more cheerful structure on a greenfield site with real grass and parkland (rather than the rooftop frippery illustrated above would be more beneficial to a child's health.)

And speaking of the roof, what the hell is the story with the helipad?
It looks large enough to accommodate the entire fleet based out in Baldonnell.
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby missarchi » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:23 am

Our childrens hospital is a monster too

"for the sick kids"
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby gunter » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:55 am

How did we get to a situation where so many people just don't trust urbanism?

We have people on the radio at the moment [some of them educated people] complaining about the location of the hospital because . . . . 'it's in the centre of the city'

This is the legacy of decades of urban neglect and wanton suburbanization, we've raised a whole generation of citizens who genuinely think that a national childrens hospital should be built out on a motorway junction.

Every time you think we've turned the corner, we're starting to understand, we're beginning to see, something like this turns up to show you that, deep down, we've lost our belief in urbanism, deep down we're hostile to it because we won't be able to turn right, we won't be able to find a parking space and the buildings are all big.

We have so much work to do.
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby thebig C » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:08 am

Hey Gunther

This has nothing to do with urbanism, which I would also be pasionately in favour of. It is simply a matter of accessability and flexability.

Put simply, 70% of referals/patients to the hospital will be from rural areas. The Mater site is just very awkward to get to, particularly given the added problems of traffic and one way systems in the area.

Also, as you can see the building completely fills the site....meaning zero room for expansion. If you think that the grounds of every hospital in Ireland are cluttered with portacabins because of a fundamental failure of forward space requirement planning. Moreover that this hospital has less beds then the 3 Hospitals its replacing. Obviously then its very probable it will need to be extended......which is impossible!

I do agree with your point about the Irish populace having an anti urban almost parochial mentality when it comes to the built environment, and it depresses me too. But this just isn't one of those occasions.

C
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby gunter » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:50 am

This has everything to do with urbanism, big C.

If you concede that something like a National Childrens Hospital really can't be built on a city centre site like Eccles Street, because the centre of the capital city is somehow inaccessible to people, and some of the streets are one-way, and because the site's urban restrictions are somehow beyond the scope of architectural and engineering solution, what you're doing is giving up on the big issue . . . . the urban issue.

People might be having a go at the roof gardens, or the parking arrangements, or that platform sandal on the roof with the helipad [which I personally think looks quite well articulated], but in reality they're giving expression to a failure of belief in urbanism, IMO.

Assuming that the professionals who put this plan together know what they're at, and the hospital does actually fit, which it appears to do quite snugly, I would take the absence of any opportunity to stack pre-fabs all over the place on surface carparks as another positive.
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby archipig » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:00 pm

You wouldnt see that built in Las Vegas FFS, never mind Dublin
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby Springer » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:06 pm

It would be hilarious if they got permission but had to chop off the "sandal" portion.
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby aj » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:36 pm

feel bad admitting this but its growing on me...

also think that it could have a transformational impact on this part of the North Inner city
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby archipig » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:48 pm

Er, have they considered how they are going to get a patient on a stretcher from the helipad into the actual building?
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby EIA340600 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:09 pm

It's not big enough.Stick an extra 10 floors on to cater for more beds, and pop it down in the docklands.That way it's easily accessible to the whole country by road(port tunnel), rail(DART/Luas) and sea(slightly less important, I know).It also gives us our first tall building. Everybody's happy!

You could even stick an extra 25 floors on it and call it the U2 tower.
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby Bago » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:26 pm

it's gonna be breezy up there.
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby PVC King » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:05 am

eia340600 wrote:it's Not Big Enough.stick An Extra 10 Floors On To Cater For More Beds, And Pop It Down In The Docklands.that Way It's Easily Accessible To The Whole Country By Road(port Tunnel), Rail(dart/luas) And Sea(slightly Less Important, I Know).it Also Gives Us Our First Tall Building. Everybody's Happy!



+1

The other benefit of doing it in the docklands is that there would be buckets of space for pharma companies to co-locate specialist R & D units with access to specialist medical practitioners to develop and co-ordinate pioneering treatments.
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby Frank Taylor » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:35 am

It's meant to be located next to a major adult teaching hospital. Temple Street hospital (for anyone who hasn't witnessed it) is a ramshackle Dickensian nightmare. A collection of decaying, half-built structures tied together with twine. It makes Holles Street look like the Starship Enterprise and it's been that way for decades.

The major consideration in reorganising hospital facilities ought to be whether the patients will have better survival rates as a result. What we usually hear about is the inconvenience to the hospital staff who will have a longer commute or will lose a free parking space. The location is not inaccessible to cars being sited on the junction of the NCR and Dorset Street. Taxis and Ambulances will have no problem reaching it.

Obesity and long term public health are improved by locating major public facilities in places accessible to the best public transport. The Metro North Mater station is to be built at this site by direct public contract rather than as part of the PPP. New A&E outpatient facilities for children at other locations are to be designated as part of the plan, so not every sick kid will be sent to the Mater for triage.

As regards the design, I like the attempt to balance the existing terrace on the North side of Eccles Street with a matching terrace to fill the gap up to the private hospital. I see no reason the roof gardens can't be built and would be of obvious benefit to the patients. The shoe shaped building on top is sufficiently set back to avoid any major looming over the neighbouring streets.
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby kefu » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:43 pm

What I'd love to know is what is a suitable site; near the Red Cow roundabout and its attendant chaos?
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby Service charge » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:55 pm

I believe in urbanism, I just don't trust the HSE and Dublin City Council.

The roof gardens are fantastic, I just don't believe they will be maintained or even properly created. Don't expect the HSE to be a pioneer.

As for traffic management, we know Dublin City Council isn't able to effectively manage traffic. And this part of Dublin is arguably the most congested part of the city.

And the Civic element of the scheme will similarly be lost by the Council who will no doubt clutter the area with barriers, traffic lights every 100 yards (incorrectly sequenced) and empty sign poles. Has the council ever managed to create a single Civic space of any real merit?
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby wearnicehats » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:52 pm

perhaps I might dare to speak as a parent here - and one who has had to avail of the fantastic expertise of Crumlin on more occasions that I would like to remember. For those who have not had the displeasure, a children’s hospital is simply the most horrendous place you will ever wish to never visit. Children, especially young ones, do not understand being sick and don’t understand pain so they cry. Scream. A lot. Constantly. Transport is important. Parking is important – do you fancy bringing a projectile vomiting screaming 3 year old to the hospital on the bus or the luas or try to get a taxi driver to take them? Children who go to crumlin regularly do not associate those visits with fluffy bunnies – do you think a bus or luas journey makes them feel better? Do you think it might be easier if you have to bring their little sibling along too? Conversely, do you think it’s great fun to be gridlocked in the town centre with all that going on in the back of your own car? Parking at crumlin is a nightmare but at least you can get there and then improvise- Infrastructure is hugely important.

You might think, given the above that a green field site by the sea would be better but, in reality, a children’s hospital is better sited in or near a city or town. The parents of sick children are, in effect, captives. At best one parent takes a break at a time so having somewhere to actually go is a real bonus. If anything a building such as this could be used as a catalyst to breathe live into one of our boom year struggling satellite towns

The external skin of a building such as this is really peripheral – it is the functionality and practicality that are key. Hospitals, unlike private clinics perhaps, don’t lend themselves to huge expanses of curtain walling – walls are where all the getyoubetter stuff goes. The roof gardens are fine in theory – and good for an environmentally friendly building but parents - and especially sick children - will not use them. An internalised climatically controlled garden space would be a great bonus, as would be any facilities for the energetically well siblings of sick kids.
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby gunter » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:08 pm

I'd have the same suspicions as a lot of posters about the abilities of the HSE and Dublin City Council to deliver this project unf - - ked up, and the choice of site may well have been influenced initially by constituency nest feathering, but however they've arived at it, with this project on this site, for once they seem to have hit on the optimum solution.

As presented, the proposal appears to be a well planned and well designed structure on a prime urban site adjacent to another major hospital and almost adjacent to the present location of one of the three constituent childrens hospitals that will amalgamate into this new National Childrens Hospital. This tells us that the location is capable of working provided the increases in people movements, including car traffic, are managed.

We can all swap stories of the panic experienced in journeys to hospital with sick children and no single location of hospital will suit everyone, but the core of the centre of the capital city is where the greatest number of transport routes converge, and it is also the heart of the population centre with the greatest density, and these are both compelling reasons to locate a major new national facility of this importance in a place like this.

Maybe DCC will screw up the planning decision and later screw up the traffic management, and maybe the HSE will screw up the funding and the hospital management, but right now the question is: do we have faith in the urban concept, or are we really out-of-towners to the core of our being?
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Re: National Children's Hospital design

Postby LOB » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:11 pm

Thunderbirds are Go!!
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