New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby PVC King » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:14 am

suzy61 wrote:You build a new housing estate, you should HAVE to contribute to the upgrading of existing transport-I mean buses and trains etc,- or provide new transport-stations, etc, like the estate being built near Howth, beside the railway line.A new station is being put in as part of that development. Means more overcrowding on the trains, but at least it's a start....


Contrary to opinion previously expressed here developers do pay significant contributions for transport infrastructure, take Adamstown for example where there will be a train station next year and a 2 QBC's inside the estate as well as the developers stumping up 11,000 per unit of which 40% or 4,400 per unit is directly attributable to the provision of roads, rail etc.

The problem here is not that the private sector isn't contributing, it is that Local Authorities are not spending the development levies on the purpose for which the monies were levied in the first place. The local authorities are not in a position to do so because successive governments are not giving the local authorities sufficient funding to run their existing services such as Waste, Libraries and parks.

Where this is particularly noticeable are in places such as Kildare, Meath and Westmeath where the developers have paid up but the Local Authorites have diverted the cash, what is required are regional transport development bodies along the lines of the regional waste authorities that have responsibility for allocating the funds as levied. The current situation is not acceptable and this outer ring road will be little more than an orbital carpark shortly after completion.
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby suzy61 » Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:12 pm

True Adamstown is being built with a train station, but unfortunately, there aren't enough trains running on that line to cater for the massive population increase that will result from the development. Unless in the amount of time it takes to do the building, Iarnrod eireann manage to increase the number of trains running on that line.
Plus when you take to the roads in your car, things aren't much better. All the junctions on the M50 are being altered to become clover-leaf junctions, i.e. free-flowing.Because they've established that "traffic lights don't work".(I think we know that!!)Is it worth sitting through the ENDLESS traffic jams that will result from the construction work though? And one more question-why are there so many roundabouts with traffic lights on them?They cancel each other out!! Why can't they fix the problems we have instead of creating new ones, such as "outer ring roads"?
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby Andrew Duffy » Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:35 pm

Irish Rail is currently upgrading the line from Hazelhatch to Heuston by extending it to four tracks, building new stations, relocating others and preparing for electrificiation. It's called the "Kildare Route Project" and is documented on the website. The effect of it will be dramatically improved commuter services and more reliable long-distance services.
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby Rory W » Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:01 pm

suzy61 wrote:True Adamstown is being built with a train station, but unfortunately, there aren't enough trains running on that line to cater for the massive population increase that will result from the development. Unless in the amount of time it takes to do the building, Iarnrod eireann manage to increase the number of trains running on that line.
Plus when you take to the roads in your car, things aren't much better. All the junctions on the M50 are being altered to become clover-leaf junctions, i.e. free-flowing.Because they've established that "traffic lights don't work".(I think we know that!!)Is it worth sitting through the ENDLESS traffic jams that will result from the construction work though? And one more question-why are there so many roundabouts with traffic lights on them?They cancel each other out!! Why can't they fix the problems we have instead of creating new ones, such as "outer ring roads"?


So you think it makes sense that a truck coming from Belfast to go to Limerick (for an example) should go via Dublin and the M50?
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby PVC King » Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:29 pm

Rory W wrote:So you think it makes sense that a truck coming from Belfast to go to Limerick (for an example) should go via Dublin and the M50?


If a decent alternative existed for commuters the M50 mightn't be the carpark that it is, if the Navan Rail link were built, when the Kildare 4 tracking is completed in 2009 and if a central interconnector metro took these commuters to the places that they worked than a second ring road mightn't be required.

As it stands a second ring road is being foisted on the Irish tax-payer by stealth with the first two sections of N7-N4 under construction and the N2- N3 at a very advanced planning stage. The N3 - N4 and N1 - N2 sections will magically appear next and all talk of a proper rail system will disappear once the by-elections are completed.

I am quoting odds of 2/7 on the N3- N4 section having a hefty toll
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby Lotts » Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:37 pm

"All the junctions on the M50 are being altered to become clover-leaf junctions "

Was this reported anywhere?
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby jmkennedyie » Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:55 pm

suzy61 wrote:And one more question-why are there so many roundabouts with traffic lights on them?They cancel each other out!!?


Free-flow junctions are the ideal solution where motorways cross, but they require more bridges hence more money. As far as I know Europe would not fund the (original) M50 with these junctions in the 80's etc. because it was a completely new route and traffic volume predictions were not trusted (suspicion that traffic volume would not justify the expense). Hence M50 has large roundabouts.

Obviously roundabouts give more free-flow than purely signal controlled junctions (traffic lights). However, roundabouts always give priority to traffic already on the roundabout, i.e. from junctions to the right. Thus an enormous flood of cars trying to join a roundabout will be severaly blocked by even a modest stream of cars from a junction to the right, if that stream is mostly continuing around the roundabout. Traffic lights are used on busy roundabouts to prevent this happenning: traffic lights actually improve the flow and reduce the average waiting time. They can be tuned so that different roads have different priorities depending on time of day etc.

Finally, I notice that in UK they now have roundabouts with traffic lights that are only switched on at rush hour. Best of both worlds (for non-motorway crossings)?

suzy61 wrote:Why can't they fix the problems we have instead of creating new ones, such as "outer ring roads"?


If you or anyone else knows how to solve 'the problems' without impacting the public, please let us know!
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby jmkennedyie » Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:03 pm

M50 plans available here:
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/services/DEVELOP/M50/M50_Upgrade.htm

Decent pictures of new junctions in last couple of pages of this doc (> 3MB): http://www.fingalcoco.ie/services/DEVELOP/M50/Chapters/Non_Tech_Summary.pdf
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby suzy61 » Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:13 pm

thanks for the info re:updating the kildare line, I wasn't aware that plan existed. Although I'd have to wait to see it happening before I put too much faith in it, after years of getting commuter trains. The train line that runs at the back of Croke Park, is this also being upgraded and (re)opened?It looks as though it might be, and it would definitely be a great idea

Rory W wrote:So you think it makes sense that a truck coming from Belfast to go to Limerick (for an example) should go via Dublin and the M50?


I don't think that drivers going from Belfast to Limerick should have to go via the M50. I am slightly at a loss as to exactly where you think they should go.Would you mind explaining this statement? What I meant was that the M50 is currently in existence and there are major problems with it. The toll plaza appears to be a major source of traffic jams, along with the Blanchardstown exit, and the Red Cow roundabout exit. Very little thought has been given to how this might be fixed-I know upgrading is currently taking place-but it is only beginning, we face years of sitting in traffic still.Anyway, does it make much sense to just create a second, similar situation, just a few miles further out from the city?With the solution to that being a third outer ring road/orbital road?No thought seems to be given to the source of all this traffic-thousands of people living in the outer reaches of Dublin, with no other way to get to the city.
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby Rory W » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:57 pm

suzy61 wrote:thanks for the info re:updating the kildare line, I wasn't aware that plan existed. Although I'd have to wait to see it happening before I put too much faith in it, after years of getting commuter trains. The train line that runs at the back of Croke Park, is this also being upgraded and (re)opened?It looks as though it might be, and it would definitely be a great idea



I don't think that drivers going from Belfast to Limerick should have to go via the M50. I am slightly at a loss as to exactly where you think they should go.Would you mind explaining this statement? What I meant was that the M50 is currently in existence and there are major problems with it. The toll plaza appears to be a major source of traffic jams, along with the Blanchardstown exit, and the Red Cow roundabout exit. Very little thought has been given to how this might be fixed-I know upgrading is currently taking place-but it is only beginning, we face years of sitting in traffic still.Anyway, does it make much sense to just create a second, similar situation, just a few miles further out from the city?With the solution to that being a third outer ring road/orbital road?No thought seems to be given to the source of all this traffic-thousands of people living in the outer reaches of Dublin, with no other way to get to the city.


My point is about the outer orbital route from Drogheda to Nerwbridge via Navan which bypasses Dublin altogether and is far enough out from the M50 hopefully to be effective
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby Rory W » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:57 pm

suzy61 wrote:thanks for the info re:updating the kildare line, I wasn't aware that plan existed. Although I'd have to wait to see it happening before I put too much faith in it, after years of getting commuter trains. The train line that runs at the back of Croke Park, is this also being upgraded and (re)opened?It looks as though it might be, and it would definitely be a great idea



I don't think that drivers going from Belfast to Limerick should have to go via the M50. I am slightly at a loss as to exactly where you think they should go.Would you mind explaining this statement? What I meant was that the M50 is currently in existence and there are major problems with it. The toll plaza appears to be a major source of traffic jams, along with the Blanchardstown exit, and the Red Cow roundabout exit. Very little thought has been given to how this might be fixed-I know upgrading is currently taking place-but it is only beginning, we face years of sitting in traffic still.Anyway, does it make much sense to just create a second, similar situation, just a few miles further out from the city?With the solution to that being a third outer ring road/orbital road?No thought seems to be given to the source of all this traffic-thousands of people living in the outer reaches of Dublin, with no other way to get to the city.


My point is about the outer orbital route from Drogheda to Nerwbridge via Navan which bypasses Dublin altogether and is far enough out from the M50 hoprefully to be effective
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby PVC King » Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:04 pm

Rory W wrote:My point is about the outer orbital route from Drogheda to Nerwbridge via Navan which bypasses Dublin altogether and is far enough out from the M50 hoprefully to be effective


Rory you are advocating a 60-70 mile stretch of road, what specification would you envisage as appropriate?
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby Rory W » Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:09 pm

What was originally proposed was motorway
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby PVC King » Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:43 pm

That would cost c1.5bn which is a lot of money to provide a link between the Drogheda and Newbridge I don't think that there is enough through traffic between the North East and Cork/Limerick to justify this level of expense, realistically an upgrade between Drogheda & Navan would be welcome but after that the types of town you are looking at are Trim, Kilcock & Clane. I don't see the figures stacking up on that basis
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby cgcsb » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:43 pm

Thought this thread could do with a revival since the Dublin-Waterford motorway is finished, and soon the Limerick-Dublin motorway. The only remaining route to Dublin to be improved is the N2/A5 to Derry. So 5 years later, lets look at the pros and cons.

Pro:
journeys between Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Clare, Galway and Louth, Down, Armagh Antrim would be greatly improved.
It would relive congestion on the M50 and some national secondary/regional roads.
It would make Cork and Belfast more attractive places to do business because of the added connectivity
Con:
we've no money
We've no way of determining if there is high demand for such a route
The rent-a-hippy crowd will be camping on site in no time.
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby kefu » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:37 pm

Also pro: how many lives that would otherwise have been lost have been saved.
Road deaths were down to 239 last year, the lowest on record.
You can't attribute all of that to the motorway network but it was a major contributor.
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby dc3 » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:37 pm

kefu wrote:Also pro: how many lives that would otherwise have been lost have been saved.
Road deaths were down to 239 last year, the lowest on record.
You can't attribute all of that to the motorway network but it was a major contributor.


Certainly a welcome development, but perhaps the road safety aspect of motorway building has been little sold to the public, - very many believe wrongly they are more dangerous than local roads. Of course, if the objective is to reduce deaths, there are cheaper options than spending on any roads. One wonders how quickly the traffic returns once economic conditions improve, I would guess very quickly indeed.
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby Smithfield Resi » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:33 pm

Whenever I hear how great the new Dublin-Cork road is, I can help reflecting on the following statistic;

London - Paris 495km including some 37 underwater. 2 hours 15 mins.

Dublin - Cork by train 250km - 3hrs 5m (or would take 6 hours to reach Paris!)

Dublin - Cork by road 2hrs 30m ish...

Absurd.

Of course, if the objective is to reduce deaths, there are cheaper options than spending on any roads.


I think 3 people died being hit by trains this year.....

€10 million/km is the accepted cost of LGV East. NRA spend slightly less at €8m/km, but clearly more km of motorway coverage is required.

So, apart from the obvious of IE's involvement. Why can't we have a high-speed rail network?
And why can't we get more freight onto rail?
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby Smithfield Resi » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:53 pm

Andrew Duffy wrote:Irish Rail is currently upgrading the line from Hazelhatch to Heuston by extending it to four tracks, building new stations, relocating others and preparing for electrificiation. It's called the "Kildare Route Project" and is documented on the website. The effect of it will be dramatically improved commuter services and more reliable long-distance services.
(2005)


http://www.irishrail.ie/your_journey/printed_timetable_pdfs/2010/Dublin%20Portlaoise%2010.pdf

O'RLY??

Dramatic - 4 trains in the morning, one AFTER 9am into Dublin.
ONE, yes ONE from Park West to Dublin in the peak evening rush hour, and if you miss it, an hour and forty minutes to the next one.

Pathetic.
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby Rory W » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:15 pm

Though when I hear how great the M8 route is (and I was on it at the weekend) I just think Cork - Dublin 2.5hrs and no motorway services - genius
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:44 pm

Just to refresh memories on this issue; during the mid to late 1990's, chambers of commerce from every two bit town to be by-passed, campaigned vigorously to ensure service areas were not part of the national motorway network out of fear that the loss of the heavy passing trade would mean the end of many local businesses. That was the basis for the NRA's original decision, as we know well, local lobbying works in this country, regardless of logic.
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby PVC King » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:08 pm

Sadly very true Peter, there is no logic not to tender service opportunities every 30kms on the main routes. The process should be based on 50 year building leases with rents (after capital offsets) being based on a designated share of turnover and the proceeds should go into the pensions reserve fund to meet future liabilities.

On Derry it would make a lot more sense to contribute to an upgrade of the Route from Newry to Derry and utilise the excellent asset that is the M1/A1 plus NI still gets the maximum structural funds rate ;)
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby Smithfield Resi » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:03 pm

the proceeds should go into the pensions reserve fund to meet future liabilities.

.
I beg to differ, the proceeds should go towards building 21st century sustainable public transport links like the TGV that make train travel a more appealing option to a wider audience. If we invested in high-speed links you would have a choice of a one hour journey by rail or three by car. This would also mean it would break the isolation of the west from Dublin based economic activity.
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby PVC King » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:15 pm

I don't see that scale of return from a revenue share on 20-25 petrol stations and rest complexes.

. The costs of building high speed rail are immense the mooted cost for HS2 in the UK from London to Manchester is c£20bn for a route slightly longer than Dublin - Cork. It is however worth saying that China will
construct c50,000kms of HS spec rail by 2030 but they have much more pressing population management challenges.

In 1984 a train left Cork every Sunday evening at 7pm it was in Heuston by 920pm; if those kind of journey times could be replicated the train would be a lot more attractive than driving. The key in my view to Public transport is the time one gets from the door to the city boundary at either end in that regard the IC and combined Luas network will give regional rail a significant boost; a Luas for Cork would also help dramatically.
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Re: New Dublin Outer Ring Road

Postby kefu » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:20 am

A one-hour journey from Dublin to Galway/Limerick etc would only concentrate further economic activity around the capital. We would then have the strong possibility of people commuting from these cities, a virtual replication of the extant problem with car commuters transferred to long-distance rail commuters.
Building a high-speed rail line between Manchester and London is one thing when you have two separate population centres, both with a greater number of people than this entire country.
If people complain about economic value from the infrastructural projects we have, the motorway projects, Metro etc, then how can they suggest a €20 billion investment on high-speed between Galway and Dublin or elsewhere is viable. On no possible measure does it add up.
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