Luas BXD

Re: Luas BXD

Postby missarchi » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:36 pm

StephenC wrote:Interested parties have 5 weeks to consider this mess and make their views known to An Bord Pleanala. Do you care enough?


The question is will it make a difference.
Based on this it seems like full steam ahead.
If this is the case do we need anymore case numbers?
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby PVC King » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:00 am

The railway order documents are complex and I havent even looked at the EIS yet but the urban design statement makes me seriously wonder what the fuck is going on in this banana republic (excuse my French). What an astonishingly poor document! This is meant to be the vision for the transformation of the city centre. It is meant to redefine all the great spaces of the city for ever! (or at least for many years to come). I challenge anyone to really consider this document and really consider how it will impact the quality of the city centre. What strikes me:

Who are the architects who are "transforming" the city;
Where is the input and direction of the many over paid officials of Dublin City Council who are paid and given responsibility to manage the city - I mean you John Tierney, Dick Gleeson, Michael Stubbs and Ali Grehan et al;
How has this design been assessed in the context of the existing and new development plans;
How has it been devised in the context of the soon to be published "Public Realm Strategy" for the city centre;
How after all the "public consultations" which have taken place has this design been arrived.

Dontget me wrong: I completely support a Luas link. But not on these terms.

Interested parties have 5 weeks to consider this mess and make their views known to An Bord Pleanala. Do you care enough?


If the route were ammended to a traffic calmed OCS and College Green with the wirescape done in a similar manner to Harcourt Street; what would your views be?
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby StephenC » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:08 pm

No it wouldn't. Firstly, the plans will actually result in traffic calming on College Green and Westmoreland Street and OCS as he amount of space given over to traffic is reduced...for example from 5 lanes to 3 to 2 back to 3 again on Westmoreland.

The issue of wirescape is of much greater concern this time around as opposed to when the original lines were laid. This plan proposed wirescapes in front of some of the most iconic buildings in the city centre (indeed in the country). Mansion House, TCD and BoI, the GPO. It is proposing to shroud some of the most notable monuments in the city centre with wires. Check out whats planned for the Parnell statue. Tell me what type of postcard images you will achieve here!

One small item: BDX proposed using a different type of pylon to previous LUAS projects. They look better to be sure...more streamlined, black, less intrusive. But this will mean that there are now three different types of treatment for Luas wiring system around the city. Luas in Docklands for example has different lamps atop its pylons to other streets in the city. Its a small detail but where is the consistency to create a cohesive city centre design here?

I have heard the works proposed under T21 for Dublin described as as "a once in a lifetime chance" to define the city centre. The one big opportunity that will be available to DCC and others to realise a world class city centre environment. I heard that from John Tierney, the City Manager and I think its true. So dont you think that the plan that transpires for the city centre with Luas BDX should be a tad more visionary than what is put forward here? I mean just look at quality of the design statement. A child would do better. This crew simply think sticking some nice pictures into a document and using the word "axial" liberally translates as a vision for the city centre.

Take the treatment of the Henry Moore statue on College Street as an example. The document states it is going to resituate the statue to give it a greater axial relationship to the portico of the HofL. Great! Symmetry is a great element in creating aesthetic. However, then the design proposed to surround the statue with randomly placed trees. Hmm - what happened to symmetry? Any what is the justification for trees here? The unsightly and long redundant loos behind the statue will be removed at ground level I(the underground being reused for technical cabins). The documents states that the "memory of the Victorian WC" will be recognised with a brass outline of the former loo. Are they serious! Is that a joke! A memorial to a toilet! Put that on your tourist trail Pat Liddy.

Apparently the designs have taken cognizance of DCCs vision for the city centre. All I see is a small image of a sketch for the front of Mansion House. It looks like something done on the back of an envelope at a meeting. Maybe its part of the plans for the street being devised along with Grafton Street. These plans are due to be on display later this year with work to start next year. Again, I havent read the EIS and all documents but I cant say there seems to be much mention of this significant development in the Luas BDX design statement.

But I dont know...the urbanist in me tell me that what I should be seeing is a a visionary plan for the centre created by DCC which the RPA then feed into. Rather than that I see "here is what the RPA engineers want...and look, lots of nice chinese granite to show our commitment to urban design"

The design statement seems to think if it shows images of College Green etc in 1900 with poles and wirescapes etc when the old trams used this area, then this justifies wirescapes in 2010. But I wonder. If the trams has never been removed in the 1950s and were still in use....would we have kept the wirescapes up to the present day. Or would we now be looking at using third rail technology to remove wires and restore unimpeded views of some of the city's iconic buildings. Think of the arguments regularly made about the Loop Line....sure it was a necessary engineering solution in the 19th C. But now we can tunnel. Would we do the same thing again in 2010?

This is all wrong. This will do to the city centre (in a more subtle fashion) what Gallagher and crew did in the 1970s with their speculative development.
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby PVC King » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:17 pm

I wonder what the costs of retro-fitting a battery system to store enough juice to get a tram from St Green to Parnell Sq would cost and what amount of passenger space would be lost to accomodate same. I'm not conviced on a third rail as if you leave accessible it will become a suicide magnet and if you sink it into the ground say 18 inches to prevent people touching it; then it would be lethal to cyclists who could get there wheels jammed. A very tough balancing act resolvable by the same technology in Nice but at a cost....
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby missarchi » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:54 am

what does 2km of capacitors & 8m 3rd rails cost?
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby StephenC » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:16 am

From today's IT:

DUBLIN CITY Council is opposing a plan to use overhead power cables on the proposed cross-city Luas line because of their detrimental effect on the city’s “exceptional” and “exquisite” architecture.

The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) wants to use the same overhead power supply system on the new line, which will link the Sandyford and Tallaght lines before continuing on to Broombridge in Cabra, as it does on the existing lines.

However, the council said the proposal was not acceptable in the city centre. The route the Luas will take – from St Stephen’s Green, down Dawson Street, through College Green, across O’Connell Bridge, and up O’Connell Street to Parnell Square – passes the city’s most significant public buildings, it said.

College Green in particular consisted of a “progression of exceptional classical buildings”, including the “exquisite” portico of the Bank of Ireland, which should not be compromised by cables and wires. Comparisons made by the RPA in relation to the wiring used by early 20th century trams in the city centre were “not an argument of weight” in the context of best-practice building conservation, the council said.

The RPA should provide an alternative wire-free system, the council argued. It said it was in favour of the overall project but it urged An Bord Pleanála to make it a condition of the railway order that St Stephen’s Green to Parnell Square be a wire-free zone.

The council’s position is supported by the Dublin Civic Trust, which submitted that the overhead lines would have a damaging impact on “large swathes of the ceremonial core of the city”. The Irish Georgian Society is also against the use of overhead lines.

The RPA June applied to An Bord Pleanála last for a railway order to construct the new line. A date for a public hearing on the project is expected to be announced soon by the planning board.

The RPA said it investigated a wire-free option that has been used on trams in Bordeaux in France since 2003. The system uses a third rail embedded in the road between the tram tracks which becomes energised as it hits connectors underneath the tram, but switches off when the tram passes.

However, the RPA said the technology was still new and there were concerns over its robustness, reliability and safety; and it was “substantially” more expensive.

A second bone of contention for the council is that the RPA’s plans to run the Luas along the central plaza of O’Connell Street. The council had undertaken a major improvement scheme of the street in recent years and the widened median was the central element of the design. The proposed alignment would “detrimentally affect the integrity of the newly completed scheme,” the council said, and should not be permitted.


At last some comment from the City Council regarding Line BDX. However this goes to show that contrary to what the RPA say in their submission, they have not been in sufficient agreement with DCC on the design and layout of the tram line and its impact on the wider city streetscapes.
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby Andrew Duffy » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:28 am

I reckon Dublin City Council should look at reducing the amount of signage clutter and shambolic public domain works it itself has smeared all over the historic core - that may give its complaints more legitimacy.
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby aj » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:11 pm

Andrew Duffy wrote:I reckon Dublin City Council should look at reducing the amount of signage clutter and shambolic public domain works it itself has smeared all over the historic core - that may give its complaints more legitimacy.


agreed... or perhaps there is a new found sense of civic pride in DCC;)
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby cgcsb » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:58 pm

the amount of signage all over the historic core of the city pointint towards car parks is ridiculouse, as is signing national primary routes in the city centre. Most journeys are not cross country. If you were going anywhere long distance, you would plan your route in advance. Are streets are far to cluttered. I'd be happy if the RPA used a black cast Iron design similar to the original tram poer lines.
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby aj » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:43 pm

Westmoreland Street has at least three clarway signs no more than 20 feet apart... what sense does that make????
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby PVC King » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:42 am

It makes no sense but one has to say that in the age of sat nav people are much better informed as to where they are going; (off topic) any news on the post code project?

Hard not to welcome their submission as the third rail is clearly the only way to limit the signficant visual clutter produced by a vital public transport project. Yes it costs more money however it preserves the architectural integrity of a number of important historical buildings and with a consolidation in signage this area could be restored to a traffic calmed and pristine heritage environment that adds greatly to the amenity of the CC.
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby weehamster » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:49 pm

PVC King who the hell are you really? Who do you really work for? What is your real interest in Line BXD/Metro North. Do you work for Dublin Bus or maybe those gimps at Carrols Gift Shop or some other city centre business. What? Cause all you have contributed on these forums to public transportation projects is just one pure negativity after another. I would call it trolling but this forum seems to have lacked any kind of moderating for years now letting trolls like you blab on and on and on and on. :mad:
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby PVC King » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:06 pm

I am perplexed as to how you can equate the post below with what you have written

Hard not to welcome their submission as the third rail is clearly the only way to limit the signficant visual clutter produced by a vital public transport project. Yes it costs more money however it preserves the architectural integrity of a number of important historical buildings and with a consolidation in signage this area could be restored to a traffic calmed and pristine heritage environment that adds greatly to the amenity of the CC.


1. Traffic calmed = less busses
2. In previous posts I was the first person on this forum to use the phrase 'shit goods' which relates to guess what type of product?

You have ruined this thread so I will continue the post on the other one.
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Re: Luas BXD

Postby missarchi » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:50 am

still in zone 1...
express train would take all of 15 minutes...
3 zones is that some kind of joke?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2010/0916/1224278977692.html
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